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2014/12/08 18:59:32
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
Little Timmy is the creation of miserable chaps that feel the need to bracket a stereotype and put some sort of blame onto them, thus making themselves feel a bit better.
2014/12/08 19:26:22
Subject: Re:What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
To try and head the debate about whether Timmy is some sort of artificial construct of immature man children off, here is, as far as I'm aware, the genisis of the term, in an article from WOTC about Magic.
Timmy wasn't the first profile we created, but it was the first profile we named. Timmy’s naming happened by accident during Tempest design. We were talking about whether or not Verdant Force would be popular. I happen to have a flair for the dramatic (if you haven’t caught on yet), so I started one of my little speeches: (Incidentally, I’m not 100% sure why I chose the name "Timmy." I wanted to personify the kid so I gave him a name and Timmy had this innocent little-kid quality to it that must have struck my fancy in the heat of the moment.)
“Imagine a kid goes into a game store. Let’s just call him… 'Timmy.' Now, Timmy doesn’t have a lot of money. So, he buys one pack of Bogavhati (Tempest’s codename). He rips it open and starts tearing through the cards to find the rare. And then he sees it. It’s a big green creature. Seven power. Seven toughness. It’s huge. Huge! He’s eyes keep moving. He glances up at the casting cost: 5 ManaGreen ManaGreen ManaGreen Mana, blah, blah, blah. Boring. Move on. Timmy looks at the rules text. There’s a bunch of words. Timmy reads. Every turn Timmy gets another creature. Another entire creature. It’s small, but in ten turns, he’ll have twenty creatures. A 7/7 creature with twenty 1/1s. How does his opponent stop that? It can’t be stopped! Timmy finally exhales. He has found the Holy Grail.”
For some reason, the name Timmy stuck.
Timmy is what we in R&D call the "power gamer." Timmy likes to win big. He doesn’t want to eke out a last minute victory. Timmy wants to smash his opponents. He likes his cards to be impressive, and he enjoys playing big creatures and big spells.
One of the misconceptions is that Timmy has to be young. While its true that younger players are more apt to fall into this category, players of any age can be a Timmy. What sets Timmy apart from the other two profiles is that Timmy is motivated by fun. He plays Magic because it’s enjoyable. Timmy is very social. An important part of the game is sitting around with his friends.
Timmy cares more about the quality of his win than the quantity of his wins. For example, Timmy sits down and plays ten games. He only wins three games out of ten but the three he wins, he dominates his opponent. Timmy had fun. Timmy walks away happy.
Each set, R&D makes sure to design a certain number of cards for Timmy. Timmy cards, as we call them, tend to be big creatures or spells with big effects. In general, Timmy cards are exciting but not too economical. The more efficiently costed ones will catch Spike’s eye. Good examples of Timmy cards are: Krosan Beast, Iridescent Angel, and just about any dragon.
Now, a certain amount of that has become subverted over time, but much still applies.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
hotsauceman1 wrote: Now see, I just hate being around kids in general, they are too loud and grab stuff they shouldn't.
And then they whine when they loose
All stereotypes.
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
2014/12/08 22:50:49
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
Azreal13 wrote: To try and head the debate about whether Timmy is some sort of artificial construct of immature man children off, here is, as far as I'm aware, the genisis of the term, in an article from WOTC about Magic.
Timmy wasn't the first profile we created, but it was the first profile we named. Timmy’s naming happened by accident during Tempest design. We were talking about whether or not Verdant Force would be popular. I happen to have a flair for the dramatic (if you haven’t caught on yet), so I started one of my little speeches: (Incidentally, I’m not 100% sure why I chose the name "Timmy." I wanted to personify the kid so I gave him a name and Timmy had this innocent little-kid quality to it that must have struck my fancy in the heat of the moment.)
“Imagine a kid goes into a game store. Let’s just call him… 'Timmy.' Now, Timmy doesn’t have a lot of money. So, he buys one pack of Bogavhati (Tempest’s codename). He rips it open and starts tearing through the cards to find the rare. And then he sees it. It’s a big green creature. Seven power. Seven toughness. It’s huge. Huge! He’s eyes keep moving. He glances up at the casting cost: 5 ManaGreen ManaGreen ManaGreen Mana, blah, blah, blah. Boring. Move on. Timmy looks at the rules text. There’s a bunch of words. Timmy reads. Every turn Timmy gets another creature. Another entire creature. It’s small, but in ten turns, he’ll have twenty creatures. A 7/7 creature with twenty 1/1s. How does his opponent stop that? It can’t be stopped! Timmy finally exhales. He has found the Holy Grail.”
For some reason, the name Timmy stuck.
Timmy is what we in R&D call the "power gamer." Timmy likes to win big. He doesn’t want to eke out a last minute victory. Timmy wants to smash his opponents. He likes his cards to be impressive, and he enjoys playing big creatures and big spells.
One of the misconceptions is that Timmy has to be young. While its true that younger players are more apt to fall into this category, players of any age can be a Timmy. What sets Timmy apart from the other two profiles is that Timmy is motivated by fun. He plays Magic because it’s enjoyable. Timmy is very social. An important part of the game is sitting around with his friends.
Timmy cares more about the quality of his win than the quantity of his wins. For example, Timmy sits down and plays ten games. He only wins three games out of ten but the three he wins, he dominates his opponent. Timmy had fun. Timmy walks away happy.
Each set, R&D makes sure to design a certain number of cards for Timmy. Timmy cards, as we call them, tend to be big creatures or spells with big effects. In general, Timmy cards are exciting but not too economical. The more efficiently costed ones will catch Spike’s eye. Good examples of Timmy cards are: Krosan Beast, Iridescent Angel, and just about any dragon.
Now, a certain amount of that has become subverted over time, but much still applies.
Advertising and Marketing heads have been referring to kids as Little Timmy and Little Johnny for decades. WOTC did not originate the term.
2014/12/08 23:52:42
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
Las wrote:Imaginary young middle class target demographic of GW who - instead of being encouraged to continue wargaming - must be shunned and ridiculed because plastic space soldiers are serious business for serious MEN.
Rayvon wrote:Little Timmy is the creation of miserable chaps that feel the need to bracket a stereotype and put some sort of blame onto them, thus making themselves feel a bit better.
Well, someone's definitely whipping up a strawman demographic as a handy scapegoat.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Now see, I just hate being around kids in general, they are too loud and grab stuff they shouldn't.
And then they whine when they loose
All stereotypes.
Not in my experiance. Kids are godaweful things that need to be locked away until they turn 13.
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2014/12/09 00:08:41
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
I disagree that "little Timmys" are GW's target audience. Warhammer is a hobby, like any other, that requires disposable income. The people who spend the most on the game and have the biggest collections are adult players who have their own discretionary income. The adult players are the ones who will readily snap up limited edition codexes and the big $100 centerpiece unit models with their own credit cards. Adult players will buy the GW terrain pieces, campaign books, and secondary army supplements. The kids generally just want a tactical squad and a tank in order to play with us.
I am also going to have to disagree with you... Yet again... adults in fandoms who share marketspace with children overestimate their worth and market impact due to their massive discretionary income. For every adult who collects 20k points of armies there are dozens if not more casual customers who more than out pace the purchasing power of the hardcore hobbyist with his discretionary income. EVERY fandom that has adults sharing it with children falls in this pit and then uses it to bludgeon companies over the head on why they should be considered the core demo and catered to. GOOD companies get statistics and put those entitled people in the fandom in their place and show them how little value an adult spending 300$ a month really holds to their business.
Hasbro does it wonderfully every year... For every adult collector who can drop cash and buy an entire wave of figures, there are easily 500 kids getting taken to tousRus by grandma to buy a 20$ toy. Never overestimate that adults who go into crushing CC debt and buy tons of things to feed their addiction are the majority market or are keeping all these miniature companies alive.
How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?
-- Fifty-Four -- Eight to argue, one to get a continuance, one to object, one to demur, two to research precedents, one to dictate a letter, one to stipulate, five to turn in their time cards, one to depose, one to write interrogatories, two to settle, one to order a secretary to change the bulb, and twenty eight to bill for professional services.
2014/12/09 00:23:30
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
hotsauceman1 wrote: Now see, I just hate being around kids in general, they are too loud and grab stuff they shouldn't.
And then they whine when they loose
All stereotypes.
Not in my experiance. Kids are godaweful things that need to be locked away until they turn 13.
Without adults to teach them, they won't magically not be terrible at age 13. Don't stereotype. Just because you encountered a Nurgling or two doesn't mean everyone under 13 is terrible.
You sound like a person on Reddit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/09 00:24:41
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
2014/12/09 00:29:07
Subject: Re:What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
To try and head the debate about whether Timmy is some sort of artificial construct of immature man children off, here is, as far as I'm aware, the genisis of the term, in an article from WOTC about Magic.
Timmy wasn't the first profile we created, but it was the first profile we named. Timmy’s naming happened by accident during Tempest design. We were talking about whether or not Verdant Force would be popular. I happen to have a flair for the dramatic (if you haven’t caught on yet), so I started one of my little speeches: (Incidentally, I’m not 100% sure why I chose the name "Timmy." I wanted to personify the kid so I gave him a name and Timmy had this innocent little-kid quality to it that must have struck my fancy in the heat of the moment.)
“Imagine a kid goes into a game store. Let’s just call him… 'Timmy.' Now, Timmy doesn’t have a lot of money. So, he buys one pack of Bogavhati (Tempest’s codename). He rips it open and starts tearing through the cards to find the rare. And then he sees it. It’s a big green creature. Seven power. Seven toughness. It’s huge. Huge! He’s eyes keep moving. He glances up at the casting cost: 5 ManaGreen ManaGreen ManaGreen Mana, blah, blah, blah. Boring. Move on. Timmy looks at the rules text. There’s a bunch of words. Timmy reads. Every turn Timmy gets another creature. Another entire creature. It’s small, but in ten turns, he’ll have twenty creatures. A 7/7 creature with twenty 1/1s. How does his opponent stop that? It can’t be stopped! Timmy finally exhales. He has found the Holy Grail.”
For some reason, the name Timmy stuck.
Timmy is what we in R&D call the "power gamer." Timmy likes to win big. He doesn’t want to eke out a last minute victory. Timmy wants to smash his opponents. He likes his cards to be impressive, and he enjoys playing big creatures and big spells.
One of the misconceptions is that Timmy has to be young. While its true that younger players are more apt to fall into this category, players of any age can be a Timmy. What sets Timmy apart from the other two profiles is that Timmy is motivated by fun. He plays Magic because it’s enjoyable. Timmy is very social. An important part of the game is sitting around with his friends.
Timmy cares more about the quality of his win than the quantity of his wins. For example, Timmy sits down and plays ten games. He only wins three games out of ten but the three he wins, he dominates his opponent. Timmy had fun. Timmy walks away happy.
Each set, R&D makes sure to design a certain number of cards for Timmy. Timmy cards, as we call them, tend to be big creatures or spells with big effects. In general, Timmy cards are exciting but not too economical. The more efficiently costed ones will catch Spike’s eye. Good examples of Timmy cards are: Krosan Beast, Iridescent Angel, and just about any dragon.
Now, a certain amount of that has become subverted over time, but much still applies.
Advertising and Marketing heads have been referring to kids as Little Timmy and Little Johnny for decades. WOTC did not originate the term.
Perhaps, but i couldn't find any sort of codified reference, not even a Wiki page, while I was looking for this article.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
hotsauceman1 wrote: Now see, I just hate being around kids in general, they are too loud and grab stuff they shouldn't.
And then they whine when they loose
All stereotypes.
Not in my experiance. Kids are godaweful things that need to be locked away until they turn 13.
Without adults to teach them, they won't magically not be terrible at age 13. Don't stereotype. Just because you encountered a Nurgling or two doesn't mean everyone under 13 is terrible.
You sound like a person on Reddit.
That is anotherthing, they are full of diseases
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2014/12/09 01:11:49
Subject: Re:What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
crazyredpraetorian wrote: Little Timmy's are actually children, while the gamers that resent them so much are just socially inept man-children. I think the older players are just jealous.
so true, i was "little timmy" once, i think most of us are at some stage, i was lucky enough to have a good group of mature gamers, to politely teach me how to respectfully play warhammer and i now endeavour to do the same to the next generation..
i do think tho that there is an age limit, under 10 (depending on maturity level) is generally to young for this hobby, i was a "mature" 10 year old and i even took me a while to fully grasp the concept..
people who hate on "little timmys" are in my opinion exactly the same as old people who despise the young, they have forgotten their roots and forgotten how they gained the wisdom they have.. (the worst sort of old people)
hotsauceman1 wrote: Now see, I just hate being around kids in general, they are too loud and grab stuff they shouldn't.
And then they whine when they loose
All stereotypes.
Not in my experiance. Kids are godaweful things that need to be locked away until they turn 13.
how is this magical 13th birthday going to transform them, unless they have role models to tell them what is acceptable and what is not, in a non aggressive but assertive manner? and seriously, children are so easy to manage, if you cant deal with them go gain some social skills, is it really that hard to say "you can look at my models but don't touch them unless i say you can" kids by default respect adults, just talk to them and lay down the ground rules... its not rocket surgery guys...
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/09 01:20:52
2014/12/09 01:24:44
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
The miraculous device known as a Padlock was rediscovered in 356.M39 by the Tech-Magos known as John Smith. This miraculous invention protects against both conversions built so poorly that they shatter when looked at, and small gakky children who decide everything is as durable as a G.I. Joe figure.
Sadly, many of the people in the Segmentum Solar have not recieved word of this invention, leaving them to hate small children.
crazyredpraetorian wrote: Little Timmy's are actually children, while the gamers that resent them so much are just socially inept man-children. I think the older players are just jealous.
so true, i was "little timmy" once, i think most of us are at some stage, i was lucky enough to have a good group of mature gamers, to politely teach me how to respectfully play warhammer and i now endeavour to do the same to the next generation..
i do think tho that there is an age limit, under 10 (depending on maturity level) is generally to young for this hobby, i was a "mature" 10 year old and i even took me a while to fully grasp the concept..
people who hate on "little timmys" are in my opinion exactly the same as old people who despise the young, they have forgotten their roots and forgotten how they gained the wisdom they have.. (the worst sort of old people)
hotsauceman1 wrote: Now see, I just hate being around kids in general, they are too loud and grab stuff they shouldn't.
And then they whine when they loose
All stereotypes.
Not in my experiance. Kids are godaweful things that need to be locked away until they turn 13.
how is this magical 13th birthday going to transform them, unless they have role models to tell them what is acceptable and what is not, in a non aggressive but assertive manner? and seriously, children are so easy to manage, if you cant deal with them go gain some social skills, is it really that hard to say "you can look at my models but don't touch them unless i say you can" kids by default respect adults, just talk to them and lay down the ground rules... its not rocket surgery guys...
Rocket science is easy.
Getting small children to listen to me... Quite difficult without decisive application of palm of hand.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/09 03:34:23
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
2014/12/09 04:11:09
Subject: Re:What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
According to that Magic article I've always been a 'Johnny' since I was eight. To this day I hate unit spammers and power gamers.
I started in GW games at 15. I skipped Space Marines and went for at the time what I was told was the 'hardest' to win with army for a newbie. Eldar. (this was in 2000) I played only at the GW at Concord Mills in Charlotte cause it was the only place I knew of that played. (I didn't have internet until I went to college)
I got creamed a lot and played a lot of 1000 point battles because that's all I could afford and yes I had to beg my folks to buy them for me. Cause I didn't have a job. And when I did start working I still asked for them on important days like my birthday and Christmas.
This 'Little Timmy' classification irrates me, cause in EVERYTING I did, where I regularly played against adults. (Pro Slot-Car racing for example) I was looked down on, and when I did win, people 'female dogged' about me even being in their league.
But when I started playing GW games I took their painting courses. (I have no idea if they still do this.) I watched, and I learned from other Eldar players. And when I got my Wraithlord. I won enough to keep me happy. I never used Wave Serpents. (Couldn't afford them.) And used Swooping Hawks to great effect when everyone told me they stunk.
But this is stuff I've done in other hobbies and games from a lot younger age.
The only 'Little Timmy' I'd say is the one that's a 4 or 5 year old, who sees a figure as a toy and breaks it on accident. But a 12-15 year old, who has to beg his folks for a tank and some marines, and tries to play hard and have fun, has my respect, NOT my disdain.
Also if their minis are so poorly painted, how about taking some time to teach them some tips and tricks? You'd be surprised on how many will listen to you.
And far as tactics. Not every little kid has money they can squeeze from mommy and daddy. Keep that in mind. They might have that starter set and a land speeder, cause that's what their folks got for them. That's all they have. And when you see that. How about leaving those extra two Riptides at home? Or at least keep the Crons and GKs in the box period.
My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba Order of Saint Pan Thera
Just another term thought up by elitist douchebags who are upset that they never had that sort of treatment.
I believe the TFG tag works better for the kids with poor manners and control; but then again, the parents are more to blame for that then the children.
What's probably more shameful than the parent's inability to control their child is that this term exists in the first place. Grown men (mostly) who think it's right, to treat a child this way. I don't care why you think it's OK, it's not, period.
In short, Little Timmy is a term used by neckbeards who are insecure man-babies who have zero people skills.
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points)
2014/12/09 07:37:17
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
We were all there at one point, i started the hobby by getting AOBR for my 15th birthday.... everything I have gotten since has been because of one initial trade from my AOBR box.
I traded the whole set for a dark eldar army, which I traded for 2500 points of khorne daemons, which in turn was traded for 1500 pts of tomb kings, which I traded for 2000 points of bretonnians, plus $60, now I'm at 2500 pts of bretonnia.
So my little timmy syndrome kickstarted my hobby!
I love getting people into the hobby, especially kids.... (I'm 18, and have 4 younger brothers.) my definition of a little timmy is the douche variant of a kid who has just gotten into the game.
Thanks
Austin
Thought for the day: It is better to die for the Emperor than to live for yourself
2014/12/09 08:53:55
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
@Verviedi why do you make threads like this? It's becoming a habit for you. You know exactly what kind of replies you're going to get, you're just looking to start arguments.
2014/12/09 09:10:14
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
Well, my interest started while I was in single digits. Living in a rural area, with absolutely no LGS of any flavour for around 60 miles except a couple of shelves and some hooks of blisters at the local static model/railway shop, my interest was largely theoretical (excepting reading the books and buying the odd blister/receiving the odd gift) until I met someone who played (and more importantly, had the rules!) in early 2nd.
We then proceeded to play at each other's houses for the next few years, and while by this time there was a FLGS (and a good one) I only ever played a handful of games, and these were against people of a similar age or older.
So I'm confident that I'm clear of timmyitus, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. That said, I've encountered more mature, sensible young lads than I have obnoxious stereotypes (which is not to say never) so I'm fairly ambivalent towards the whole Timmy thing anyway.
The most obnoxious gamers I've ever encountered were in fact young adults playing Yu Gi Oh, on what appeared to be industrial doses of caffeine.
I also cut my teeth at friends houses (well, mates came to mine as I had a 6x4 board!) rather than in-store. I didn't start attending GW until I was probably 14 or 15, and even then only for the big campaign games. Being of a similar age to almost every other person in there I think I probably dodged the Timmy bullet too (The Nurgling aside).
The only 'proper' adults in there were the staff staff usually. Or very VERY bored looking parents.
Member of the "Awesome Wargaming Dudes"
2014/12/09 09:12:43
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
It's as if those throwing the term around were never young or new to the hobby, and never annoying! They just woke up one day in your 20s/30s with a painted army and encyclopedic knowledge of the last 6 editions of GW rules.
And it's not a kids fault if their parents have some cash. Stinks like sour grapes to me.
Though I recall we had The Nurgling in our local GW when I was younger. Painted his stuff in enamel, and pronounced Chaos as Chows.
edited so that it didn't seem like I was directly having a pop at any posters here!
Yeah well that's exactly my point. Everyone starts young and naive. What makes the difference between just a regular kid new to the hobby and L-T is their involvement. L-T spends money on a starter, hobby materials and several boxes, half-assembles it and forgets about it, thereby encouraging GW practices as we see them. The regular kid stays for more than just a couple of months, learns the rules, paints his stuff, etc. etc. So while in the initial stages sometimes indistinguishable, the L-T will soon be replaced by another L-T while the normal kid metamorphoses into a bearded oldschooler
The thing is, if you go at least slightly sensible about your hobby, you are making a good contribution. People who play do care about the rules and enough complaining could help fix the rules for all of us if GW were a better company.
People who only paint because they like minis will only buy minis they find appealing to them, so they indirectly urge GW to make nice models for all of us.
New kids are more opponents for all of us and the future of the hobby so let's not complain about them too much.
However, the Little Timmies main purpose is to sustain GW horrible practices while his only beneficial aspect is restocking ebay with models that have been basecoated without grating the mouldlines off first.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vendablefall wrote: and seriously, children are so easy to manage, if you cant deal with them go gain some social skills, is it really that hard to say "you can look at my models but don't touch them unless i say you can" kids by default respect adults, just talk to them and lay down the ground rules... its not rocket surgery guys...
Zande4 wrote: @Verviedi why do you make threads like this? It's becoming a habit for you. You know exactly what kind of replies you're going to get, you're just looking to start arguments.
Because I can, and there isn't a rule against it.
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
2014/12/09 11:17:34
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
Zande4 wrote: @Verviedi why do you make threads like this? It's becoming a habit for you. You know exactly what kind of replies you're going to get, you're just looking to start arguments.
Because I can, and there isn't a rule against it.
There's little Timmy!
2014/12/09 11:22:08
Subject: What is a "Little Timmy", and why are they so Hated?
Zande4 wrote: @Verviedi why do you make threads like this? It's becoming a habit for you. You know exactly what kind of replies you're going to get, you're just looking to start arguments.
Because I can, and there isn't a rule against it.
There's little Timmy!
This couldn't have been funnier, have an exalt sir.
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points)
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
Menaphite Dynasty Necrons - 6000 
Karak Hirn Dwarfs - 2500 
Children of Stirba 
Order of Saint Pan Thera 
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points) 
Waaagh an' a 'alf
1500 Pts WIP 