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I have a type 1 - LOTD. They can't even kill a single unit if they are unallied.

1. Useless: Vespids Ogryns

2. Underpowered: most assault marines

3. Slightly Underpowered: Terminators

4. Balanced: Most other codex entires

5. Grav, Drop pods, Misslefists

6. Wave Snakes

7. Invisibility

There is no Straight OP or UP Codexs. just op and up options within it.

 undertow wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
FMC got a buff from a less punishing grounding test.

This was balanced out by the need to sit on the ground for a turn before assaulting when switching from Swooping to Gliding, as well as being non-scoring while Swooping.

That's true but may I ask you what kind of non-Khornate equalivents FMC actually care about that change? I don't see how the Flyrant cares, nor do I see how Be'Lakor, Fateweaver, FMC Psykers and breakdancing Nurgle FMC care about that change.

 pretre wrote:
SOB/AS are Cat 4.

I too live the dream Father... I too live the dream.

Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Imperial Knights and Necrons are better than Eldar? Wow, just wow.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
There's also a big difference between "no Death Company" and "White Scars, so bikes instead of Tactical Marines" or "Raven Guard, so Rhinos instead of Drop Pods".

Yet you bother adding "no-Centurions" to the list.

And well, as the question was about codices, not different armies I see no reason why the Space Marines should get an exception to the rule.
Chapter Tactics are nothing but a tactical choice to be made at the beginning of the game/before it.

If we assume that AM players could choose one of three "Battle Tactics" at the beginning of the game, you still wouldn't count AM as three armies in this list.
One codex, one entry based on the level of the army you can pull out of the codex.

bibotot wrote:

For the original poster's categories, here is what it will look like:

Cat 7: Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Imperial Knights and Necron.

Cat 6: Eldar, Grey Knights, Clan Raukaan.

Cat 5: Space Marines.

Cat 4: Dark Eldar, Space Wolves.

Cat 3: AM, Blood Angels, Inquisition, Chaos Space Marines.

Cat 2: Dark Angels.

Cat 1: None, I guess.

Tyranids and Necrons better than Eldar? Hardly. You have way too much stuff at the "auto-win" section in my opinion.

SGTPozy wrote:
Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Imperial Knights and Necrons are better than Eldar? Wow, just wow.

Daemons mostly because of Balekor and his invisibility, screamer stars, summoning, flying circus

Nids also due to the amount of flying spam they can bring. Dakka-Rants are spooky scary.

Tau I think were roughly on par with Eldar in terms of derptitude, but IMO have dropped a tad due to no longer being able to ally and buff one another up. But still, strong gunlines, Riptides, JSJ suits, Markerlight shenanigans.

Imperial Knights...an 'army' of only Super Heavies that can ally with pretty much ANYTHING? Yes, they are more stupid than Eldar.

Necrons, no idea on this one. They have some pretty bonkers and auto take combos as of right now. Until the new Crons come out, it's really difficult to say they will surpass Eldar in tomfoolery.

Eldar are still silly though. Wave Anacondas, InvisiJetseer shenanigans, their Wraithknight things.

I don't think anyone said these armies were better than Eldar, but that they might be on par (or more so) in the 'stupid options' department as Eldar.

 soomemafia wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
There's also a big difference between "no Death Company" and "White Scars, so bikes instead of Tactical Marines" or "Raven Guard, so Rhinos instead of Drop Pods".

Yet you bother adding "no-Centurions" to the list.

And well, as the question was about codices, not different armies I see no reason why the Space Marines should get an exception to the rule.
Chapter Tactics are nothing but a tactical choice to be made at the beginning of the game/before it.

If we assume that AM players could choose one of three "Battle Tactics" at the beginning of the game, you still wouldn't count AM as three armies in this list.
One codex, one entry based on the level of the army you can pull out of the codex.

If you can't actually refute my logic, why not just pick holes in my post on matter of my intentions to uh... make it look like I'm indecisive or something? That fell short. No, the overall perspective and chapter reasoning isn't entirely thorough, god forbid it fell out of place for two words, but anyone with a few braincells to spare can see how I approached the post given my explanation of it.

You're not worth the effort of entirely reiterating what I've said on the matter of Codex rating in considerable detail over the course of 3 paragraphs, please learn to read and then come back, thank you.

I will however point out that you've just enhanced my main point in the second paragraph to levels where I am now laughing at your elitism and hypocrisy (read the OP: and I quote, "for the average fun player") with your comment about Chapter Tactics being nothing but a crunch choice for an advantage.

And yes, I would count AM if what you say were the case. SM are the exception. No other Codex functions in such a varied way that it could very well be split into several mini-Codexes as theirs does.

Not sure I quite 100% agree with the above percentile ratings (nobody is going to win 80 or 90% of their games against similar level players assuming they're facing armies similar to theirs), but here's my take on the army books. I'm going to count subfactions and formations and allies sillyness in with each one, and ranking largely by their most powerful potential.



1. Useless: Militarum Tempestus. Plays ok at sub-1000pt games. Above that, by itself, it's a stinker.

2. Underpowered: Sisters of Battle

3. Slightly Underpowered: -

4. Balanced: Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Orks, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard.

5. Slightly Overpowered: Tau (compared straight codex to codex they'd be higher, but once you factor in formations and other shennanigans, they drop)

6. Overpowered: Current Necrons (not the ones coming out just yet). Amazingly well built to the core rules, you can auto-pilot these and win lots of games. I'd put Tyranids here once you start taking formations into account (otherwise, a 4). FMC-psyker spam Daemons also go here. Blood Angels get put here with some of their formations (otherwise I'd put them at 4)

7. Broken: Imperial Knights, simply because 30 HP's of AV13 with 4+ invuls is not something many armies have any tools to deal with, particularly if Adamatine Lance is thrown in. Eldar, tons of high BS twin linked shooting, lots of ignore cover and cover save enhancement, tons of speed, lots of psychic shennanings, amazingly resiliency, can play masters of every single phase of the game. Tentatively I'm putting the new Necron codex here as well with the capabilities offered by the formations and incredible overall buffs to the army.



Taking a more measured approach of the averages and leaving out the most abusive outliers and just looking at the codex books themselves without the capabilities for allies shennanigans and formations sillyness

1: Militarum Tempestus - their army is half formations and they work even less well without them
2: Adepta Sororitas
3: Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines
4: Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Orks, Dark Eldar, Tyranids.
5: Space Marines, Daemons
6: Imperial Knights, Tau.
7: Eldar, Current Necrons

*sigh*
I was really just trying to get you to understand what the thread is about but if you feel that insulting is the way to go from here then please do continue.

Curious, that you asked me to learn to read as you still haven't bothered to counter my argument. You're being illogical, and as I point it out how do you react? Laughing it off, and implying that I'm an idiot.

You previously said that I'm ignoring the fact that there are non-competitive players out there.
Of course I'm ignoring that, it is completely irrelevant to the question of the power levels of different codices.
Look, I'm not trying to be a d**k. I'm not saying that all people should play is some White Scar Centurion spam.
But there's no reason to rate the Tau codex lower than it is because there are casual players who use Vespids, is there?
And if there's an Eldar player playing Ulthwé army, should it have it's own entry in the list? No?
Then please, do explain to this moron with less than a few braincells, why are you doing the same for Space Marines?

So once again: we are not evaluating different army play styles. Neither are we evaluating different tactics or SM Chapters.
We are evaluating codices. If you feel that this statement is incorrect, (even tough the title of the thread strongly implies it isn't) by all means, do continue to make your point.

And I'm not trying to be impolite here. I also wish that the text I write doesn't give you such impression.
G'day to you.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I was referring to the differences of the Chapter Tactics as a tactical choice to represent that the line between Salamanders and Imperial Fists is significantly thinner than the difference between Necrons an Tau for example.
Of course many people choose their Chapter based on fluff and looks, instead of powerplaying with the rules, but really. It is just a choice to be made.
I see your point, Space Marines have a different situation that affects their power level. It just doesn't affect the power level of the codex and that is why I feel that there's no reason to give them more entries.

Sisters are definitely not underpowered...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lacking in variety and depth, sure.

Well, if you go on Torrent of Fire and go purely off of what armies are winning at tournaments in what percentages, Imperial Knights are category 7, easily. By tournament results and win percentage, Imperial Knights, and particularly Adamantium Lance are laughably OP. Eldar and Tau and I think Necrons (which may change with the new codex) are cat 6. Most everything else trails off pretty quickly, with I believe Sisters all the way down at the bottom (though Sisters have such a tiny sample size it's hard to really tell if their ranking is legit).

Actually, if you go by ToF, then IK are cat 5 by the definitions of the OP, with Eldar sneaking in to Cat 5 as well and then Tau, Daemons and Crons rounding ount the top five, but being stuck in cat 4 as "Balanced".

ToF numbers are unreliable due to the way they categorise what belongs to what army and how allies stats are collated. Useful at a glance to infer who is generally strong than who, but the "numbers" shouldn't be relied on to say that army X wins xx.x% of the time. Besides, we all know that Tau are stronger than guard or that Eldar beat DA handily, that much should be obvious from a 5 second glance at either codex.

bibotot wrote:I would rank from top to bottom:
1st - Tau, any FMC list, Daemons (if they spam FMC, that would be invincible), Imperial Knights and Necron.
2nd- Eldar, Grey Knights, Space Marines (generic).
3rd - Dark Eldar, AM, Space Wolves, Chaos Space Marines.
4th - Any other Space Marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the original poster's categories, here is what it will look like:

Cat 7: Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Imperial Knights and Necron.

Cat 6: Eldar, Grey Knights, Clan Raukaan.

Cat 5: Space Marines.

Cat 4: Dark Eldar, Space Wolves.

Cat 3: AM, Blood Angels, Inquisition, Chaos Space Marines.

Cat 2: Dark Angels.

Cat 1: None, I guess.

Melevolence wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Imperial Knights and Necrons are better than Eldar? Wow, just wow.

Daemons mostly because of Balekor and his invisibility, screamer stars, summoning, flying circus

Nids also due to the amount of flying spam they can bring. Dakka-Rants are spooky scary.

Tau I think were roughly on par with Eldar in terms of derptitude, but IMO have dropped a tad due to no longer being able to ally and buff one another up. But still, strong gunlines, Riptides, JSJ suits, Markerlight shenanigans.

Imperial Knights...an 'army' of only Super Heavies that can ally with pretty much ANYTHING? Yes, they are more stupid than Eldar.

Necrons, no idea on this one. They have some pretty bonkers and auto take combos as of right now. Until the new Crons come out, it's really difficult to say they will surpass Eldar in tomfoolery.

Eldar are still silly though. Wave Anacondas, InvisiJetseer shenanigans, their Wraithknight things.

I don't think anyone said these armies were better than Eldar, but that they might be on par (or more so) in the 'stupid options' department as Eldar.

bibotot wrote:I would rank from top to bottom:
1st - Tau, any FMC list, Daemons (if they spam FMC, that would be invincible), Imperial Knights and Necron.
2nd- Eldar, Grey Knights, Space Marines (generic).
3rd - Dark Eldar, AM, Space Wolves, Chaos Space Marines.
4th - Any other Space Marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the original poster's categories, here is what it will look like:

Cat 7: Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Imperial Knights and Necron.

Cat 6: Eldar, Grey Knights, Clan Raukaan.

Cat 5: Space Marines.

Cat 4: Dark Eldar, Space Wolves.

Cat 3: AM, Blood Angels, Inquisition, Chaos Space Marines.

Cat 2: Dark Angels.

Cat 1: None, I guess.

This guy said that they were.

 Desubot wrote:
1. Useless: Vespids Ogryns

2. Underpowered: most assault marines

3. Slightly Underpowered: Terminators

4. Balanced: Most other codex entires

5. Grav, Drop pods, Misslefists

6. Wave Snakes

7. Invisibility

There is no Straight OP or UP Codexs. just op and up options within it.

Agree with this mostly except as a GK I have to throw NDK in there becasue they win me a lot of games 5.) +NDK

 Zewrath wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
FMC got a buff from a less punishing grounding test.

This was balanced out by the need to sit on the ground for a turn before assaulting when switching from Swooping to Gliding, as well as being non-scoring while Swooping.

That's true but may I ask you what kind of non-Khornate equalivents FMC actually care about that change? I don't see how the Flyrant cares, nor do I see how Be'Lakor, Fateweaver, FMC Psykers and breakdancing Nurgle FMC care about that change.

A Daemon Prince (including Be'Lakor here) are combat monsters no matter which chaos god they follow. If you happen to get Iron Arm on your DP, they're even more of a monster. Being forced to stand on the ground before charging for a turn is a big nerf. I would regularly land my Princes (and sometimes even Fateweaver) and charge to clear objectives, or remove a unit. Now that unit can just move away if it's fast enough, and it gets a turn to shoot at me.

In 6th, if all you were doing with a Tzeentch prince was flying around shooting things, you were probably doing it wrong. If you play them like that, you ignoring the huge CC potential of the unit, potential that you paid a lot of points for.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
1. Useless: Vespids Ogryns

2. Underpowered: most assault marines

3. Slightly Underpowered: Terminators

4. Balanced: Most other codex entires

5. Grav, Drop pods, Misslefists

6. Wave Snakes

7. Invisibility

There is no Straight OP or UP Codexs. just op and up options within it.

Agree with this mostly except as a GK I have to throw NDK in there becasue they win me a lot of games 5.) +NDK

Its a fast and loose list. ofcorse there are NDK in 5. jinking DP of nurgle around 5.5-6. but really the only game breaker for the sake of near unstoppablity is just invisibility is the point.