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 Mr Morden wrote:

You are not helping your case. The DA codex is pretty bad, and has been one of the inferior codexes in pretty much every edition. It's not like BA or SW, which are SM +1, it's more SM -1.

I am sorry, I do not follow - why does the DA Codex affect this one way or the other?

I would say,incidentally, that I would happily take a Dark Angels force against Craftworld Eldar with a reasonably expectation of victory...

 Mr Morden wrote:


Source?

I have spent time in the studio and have had cause to talk to some of the chaps there.

 Mr Morden wrote:


No mention of the difficulty of actually getting into CC with a Eldar jet bike unit?? The fact that every single bike can take a special/heavy wepaon upgrade?

I honestly thought the difficulties were self-evident, but outlined CC as an ideal. On the other hand, are you saying you have never engaged Jetbikes in close combat? There are ways. The Jetbikes may be caught out of position performing another duty (attacking another target, going for an objective, etc) and even the best players make mistakes from time to time. It is also possible to force the issue, baiting your opponent with one unit to slap them with another (nailed enough DE Jetbikes that way in the past...).

As for the weapons, I never said they were not potent However, they add more than 50% to the cost of the bike, and you are still left with an expensive weapon that is not exactly the most resilient in the game.

 Mr Morden wrote:
, with an eldar jetbike covering 48" of it in any given turn, so the eldar player can cover most of the board. Most enemy units do not have this luxury, and the eldar army is extremely fast with great shooting. They don't need to avoid you for 6 turns, they need to avoid you for 2-3 turns. This gains them such an advantage on attrition that they don't need it.

See, this is the thing - Jetbikes cannot have it both ways. They either get that great movement or they get the great attrition - they cannot have both in the same turn. Shoot across the table or shoot.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
10 bikes fire 40 shots, ~27 hits, ~22 wounds, 7 and change dead marines a turn? So a bike squad can kill 14-21 marines before the marines will get them to a board edge unless they deepstrike.

Great, they get seven Marines (who, it could be argued, had no business stepping out of their Rhino until the battlefield had been made a bit friendlier - but stuff happens, as they say). The Jetbike unit now gets hit by weapons that force Jink or death. Which brings us to...

Again though, I doubt anyone is going to take a large bike squad, it'll be several small ones.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
Second, I see this mistake often. Jinking is NOT a weakness. The choice is death, in which case you wouldn't be able to shoot back anyway, or jinking, in which case at least you get to return fire somehow and survive to another round to continue to absorb shots

I would argue this is not correct - it is about degradation of the unit. If they don't Jink, great, some dead elves. If they do, their firepower is eroded in the next turn quite effectively. That does not neutralise the unit, obviously, but it has bought your army a little extra survivability - better to force them to make a Jink (which they can easily fail) than to get the full effect of their weaponry.

Keep them on the back foot, and you have the initiative.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
Taking small squads means only a few bikes won't get to fire back.

That is true, and I think it is absolutely the way to use them in most cases (not all, concentration of firepower always has its uses). However, smaller units are, by definition, less durable. The same thinking applies, what changes is the units you match against them.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
First, you are assuming that the bikes are standing within charge range of LOS blocking terrain. Why would they do this? They have 36" range guns while the De army has to charge or die.

A DE army most certainly does not have to charge or die. Also, DE Jetbikes, from a standing start, can cover quite a large portion of the table if they move and assault. Make it two units, and those CE Jetbikes are not going to stay safe for too long. Something in the Eldar army is going to actively hunt them down - which plenty of units can do, I grant you, but they are then going after piddly little units rather than doing their proper jobs, which plays into the hands of the DE player.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
Second, a minimum squad size of CE jetbikes kills about 3-4 bikes. Overwatch kills another 1-2, so as long as the CE bikes get one shot off, the DE bikes are not a threat.

Why do you presume the CE get 3-4 DE Jetbikes before things get started? They are just as mobile and you cannot guarantee LOS by any means. As for Overwatch, I would not count on success of even one DE Jetbike going down (though I would certainly hope it does). FNP and Combat Drugs can change that quite easily. Once they are in, the CE Jetbikes are effectively neutralised (possibly stuffed) unless something else comes in to help them - something which should probably be elsewhere on the battlefield, tearing DE apart, rather than rescuing a bunch of flyboys. Until then, the DE have a good chance of holding the CE up, maybe whittling them down, until it is the CE Eldar's turn when they use Hit and Run, and prep another round of HoW.

It won't go that way in every game, sure, but that scenario is not exactly unlikely.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
Outside of a BA formation, how do you plan on entering melee with jetbikes? So far your suggestions have been pretty poor.

Again, I said it was an ideal. Personally, I would be looking to nullify them via Jinks until I can spare something to beat the hell out of them, but I outline a reasonable approach above.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,

So have I? An appeal to authority will get you no where.

Not an appeal, it seemed you were suggesting that I was new at this. Apologies if that was not the case.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
If you've been watching bikes for a long time, you must realize these are the strongest bikes ever released in the game?.

I agree with you completely (I knew if we went long enough at this we could find common ground ).

My point is that they are not invincible. Furthermore, I opine that the book has not killed the game.

 Mr Morden wrote:
, Try addressing some points.

I entrust the above to your consideration.

Why are you assuming all firepower is ap1-3? Also you are aware that the range is 36" right? You do realise this range combined with jsj is what adds to the resiliency right?
It is incredibly difficult to hide enough DE jetbikes out of LoS of a unit with a 12" move that will make a difference.
How is a rhino going to survive the firepower?

the42up wrote:

For example, I play khorne daemonkin and know its not hot. I dont try to convince everyone it has fixed khorne melee or something that its not.
.

Mate, my main army is Dark Angels - I can one downsmanship you unit for unit

 Yarium wrote:

I think you're correct in that a straight slugfest, the Eldar probably aren't quite as insane as before (though they probably are), but I'll be playing them to take objectives and win games. If I can make my Harlequins win with their incredibly more frail and far more expensive units, I think the Eldar will be nutso for me.

A gamer after my own heart - that is exactly what I am looking to do with Eldar, get those Harlequins in

Jaq Draco lives wrote:

Because he creates defences for balances using flawed examples, which is where it steps outside of opinion and into just being terrible and wrong. .

In my defence, it was not a tactics article. I can do one of those, but you'll have to wait a few months.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Stopped reading here.

So basically your argument about balance here is that Eldar still have to pay points for things and eventually they run out of points? Even though the points they pay for everything is always spend less get more?

Umm, no, that is not my argument. I am saying they get a lot of really nice things but, when putting an army together, it will never seen like a lot.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Smart players wont jink if it means they get more firepower the next turn. It is an offensive unit - it's just a bonus that they have meq surviability - they'd still be overpowered even with 5+ saves...

This is very true. However, an even smarter player (not sure what system of weights and measures we are using here...) might forego that extra firepower if it means the unit stays in contention for the turn after that, and the one after that.

If they had 5+ saves, they would get absolutely slaughtered.

 office_waaagh wrote:

One of the issues that you don't address, however, is the concern that people have that eldar are now (again?) a "no-fun" opponent. So much ranged D means that they can essentially delete an 800 point stompa without batting an eye using a unit with a fraction of the points cost, and suddenly you're down nearly half your points and the rest of the game is a foregone conclusion.

This is a very good point you make, Sir, and, as a part time Ork player with a Stompa, I have a great deal of sympathy.

The ranged D weaponry is to be respected - I am actually okay with it on the Wraithguard, as it creates an 18" 'death' zone around the unit which is exactly how they used to be way back when (been fighting Eldar since the Rogue Trader days, anyone remember the effective Folllowing Fire on the Avatar? ). What I haven't since people leaping up and down on, however, is the Battle Focus on the Wraith Host. Now, that is _nasty_. However, you then have the detachment/formation problem kicking in, and you won't reasonably be facing that in a 1500 point army.

And anyway, as an Ork player, how are those Wraithguard getting through your Ork hordes? I would honestly be more worried about Fire Dragons coming down in a non-scattering Falcon.

Anyway, let's get to the elephant in the room - the Wraithknight. I would make an argument that it is not all doom and gloom for your Stompa. With terrain, you may get the benefit of cover. If not, bring your Power Fields along, and have your Meks inside working furiously to replace Hull Points - you are probably aware of just how infuriating that is to opponents

However, think on this. Your Stompa is capable of taking a '6' on the Destroyer table and it will more than likely live, ready to take more hits, keep fighting, and hitting more pansies. It is not a case of the Eldar taking it out and not batting an eyelid - they will have to work at it.

You are on the nail about the importance of such a unit in a game, and the effect of its loss. However, that is kinda the risk you take and, be honest, even against an army that does not sport D-weapons, the Stompa may not be absolutely, 100% worth the points it costs

Is great fun to use though!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:

- I get the impression here that you are saying a knight is not worth 375pts because that is too many points to invest in it. Therefore leading to the conclusion that you believe knights overcosted. You are using this as an analogy to wraithknight, hence you are claiming the wraithknight is overcosted. Personally I find this absurd.

Be _absolutely_ honest with me for a moment. Do you really think that was the point I was making?

Nice review. After reading through the codex, I agree with you that the eldar now have a ton of awesome options, but they can't take all of them I one list, or even most of them, or possibly even most of what they really want.

About the best combination will probably be CAD+Warhost; even then some of the options like Wraith Host don't look viable at 1850.

Untill actual games prove otherwise, this seems like a lateral shift in power level, making a previously strong codex strong in different ways, that may trigger a meta shift.

Oh yeah, and no matter how you cut it, 295 WK is just too cheap.

In all honesty - yes. Read it back to yourself. You talk about all theae problems with knights, how it gouges a huge hole in your points and how it never makes its points back. How is that not suggesting it is overcosted?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still not seeing how you can't take EVERYTHING you want makes eldar balanced. That applies to any list with a points limit. It does not make units within that points limit any more/less balanced when they cost as little as 81 or 295pts.

Poly Ranger wrote:
In all honesty - yes. Read it back to yourself. You talk about all theae problems with knights, how it gouges a huge hole in your points and how it never makes its points back. How is that not suggesting it is overcosted?

Hmm.

Well, I am very sorry, Sir, but you are most incorrect. That was not the point I was making.

As an allied unit (not a full knight army, that is different, for obvious reasons), I have rarely seen a knight make its points back - it is just one unit, has only one main weapon, can only be in one place at any one time. This all goes to make it difficult for it to destroy enough enemy units to equal its points cost.

However, that is not to say it is undercosted. The value of an allied knight is in the damage it _absorbs_ and thus the protection it gives the rest of your army. That is more difficult to quantify, obviously, but it is why the knight is worth those points.

The same is true, to an extent, with the Wraithknight. However, I am also fairly confident it _will_ earn its points back outright. A previous poster said that 295 points is too cheap. I'll reserve judgement for the battlefield, but that is a very, very tough argument to stand against. Very tough. Before I saw the Codex, I was presuming it would be around 400 points.

Still, I would not be too quick to make a call on that. Let's see it on the battlefield and perhaps better minds than I will come up with some nice counters. That said, my first thought is that it won't take too many lascannon or missile launchers to start causing it problems...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Still not seeing how you can't take EVERYTHING you want makes eldar balanced. That applies to any list with a points limit. It does not make units within that points limit any more/less balanced when they cost as little as 81 or 295pts.

Yes, every army has this issue, and we always want just one more unit when we are putting an army together. However, because of the specialised nature of Eldar, this issue becomes acute. Going the formation/detachment route, it is not an easy thing to put a balanced Eldar army together - it tends to end up doing one thing extremely well, probably better than anyone - but only that one thing, and durability is always going to be an issue.

I'll give an example.

Today, I played a 2,000 pointer with my Dark Angels, but had no ideas whether I was going to be facing Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard, two obviously very different armies. However, with Dark Angels, it was not a problem to do a force with a reasonable chance against both.

With Eldar, that might not be quite so easy.

The specialised nature of Eldar makes them awesome, but can also bite them on the bum.

I wasn't asking you for a tactics article I was talking about how you were making justifications for the balance of a codex based on very flawed examples which ignore the multitudes of other options that players can and will use that makes the codex terribly unbalanced.

So no, nothing to do with tactics, everything to do with bad examples. Formations, size of units, you make predictions based on how you think players will behave which are pants on head stupid. For instance, no I will not automatically favour the expensive Wraith formation. Not at all, I will just take what I want in the CAD and it'll quite easily work and beat anything fielded against me bar other Eldar.

A knight can shoot at one unit with the firepower of 2 Leman Russes and charge another (due to stubbers), it can take an inordinate amount of the opponents firepower (off your other units as you say), and when it dies it messes up your opponents battle line with its explosion. I have very rarely seen a IK not make its points back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a st6 ap4 4 shot gun on an eldar jetbike is not specialised.

MongooseMatt wrote:
I would say,incidentally, that I would happily take a Dark Angels force against Craftworld Eldar with a reasonably expectation of victory...

The others may not be asking for a tactics article, but I certainly am. Either you're the best DA player the world has ever seen and we must share in your wisdom or you're playing the worst eldar player on the planet.

 Drasius wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:
I would say,incidentally, that I would happily take a Dark Angels force against Craftworld Eldar with a reasonably expectation of victory...

The others may not be asking for a tactics article, but I certainly am. Either you're the best DA player the world has ever seen and we must share in your wisdom or you're playing the worst eldar player on the planet.

I want to see the battle report as well. Of course Mongoose you'd be playing DA.

MongooseMatt wrote:


Yes, every army has this issue, and we always want just one more unit when we are putting an army together. However, because of the specialised nature of Eldar, this issue becomes acute. Going the formation/detachment route, it is not an easy thing to put a balanced Eldar army together - it tends to end up doing one thing extremely well, probably better than anyone - but only that one thing, and durability is always going to be an issue.

Eldar being specialized tends to be more of a fluff thing. In tabletop not so much, outside of aspect units. The basic Eldar weapon works well against both hordes and elites.
Take the maligned jetbikes - great against light infantry, heavy infantry, light vehicles, monstrous creatures - only heavy vehicles really give them a problem. And they are incredibly inexpensive for what they do.

The basic Eldar weapon is the Shuriken Catapult.

Markedly worse against hordes than a Boltgun.

Some things in the Dex are generalistic, but not as much as most people think.

Catapult only weakness is short range, mitigated by Eldars high speed and stuff like battle focus.

Its no weaker than a boltgun when it comes to firepower,

 Drasius wrote:

The others may not be asking for a tactics article, but I certainly am. Either you're the best DA player the world has ever seen and we must share in your wisdom or you're playing the worst eldar player on the planet.

Hmm, are you a member of the Inner Circle? Oh, you are. I'll have to see what I can do, give me a couple of weeks or so :

However, in a nutshell, I would say treat them as a 'normal' Space Marine army, and then sprinkle some Dark Angel goodness - Ravenwing outflanking, deep striking Speeders (5 of those coming down with Multi-meltas will ruin a super heavy's day), I don't think there is much argument that Deathwing Knights are kinda awesome.

That said, there are some things that might be more difficult to put into a tactics article but that are applicable to any army - you have to play not just the opposing army, but the opposing player as well. Actually, thinking about it, that could be more interesting to talk about...

 Quickjager wrote:


I want to see the battle report as well. Of course Mongoose you'd be playing DA.

Now I am kicking myself - I was 'this' close to taking photos of the game today and doing a battle report. But my mate came over, we started chatting... you know how it goes.

Its much, much weaker against hordes that are more than 12" away.

And no stronger against hordes within 12".

I'd call that more specialized.

Some of these are from me despite what the quotes say, and I'll be addressing them below

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

You are not helping your case. The DA codex is pretty bad, and has been one of the inferior codexes in pretty much every edition. It's not like BA or SW, which are SM +1, it's more SM -1.

I am sorry, I do not follow - why does the DA Codex affect this one way or the other?

The part you cut out, you stated that you'd argue that the DA codex is just as strong as anything else.
I am saying this is not the case, never has been, and throws your objectivity into question. I am questioning your objectivity because you are mainly arguing from a position of authority, and frankly, I found your tone to be extremely condescending. Such as your twit comment.

MongooseMatt wrote:

I would say,incidentally, that I would happily take a Dark Angels force against Craftworld Eldar with a reasonably expectation of victory...

I would love to see this battle report. DA are an awful army, and I say this with them being my favorite loyalist legion.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Source?

I have spent time in the studio and have had cause to talk to some of the chaps there.

There is nothing Dark Angels can do that Space Marines can't do better. I have a friend who loves them so much he got a damn tattoo but he loves the army not the constant crapfest that are the rules.

MongooseMatt wrote:


However, in a nutshell, I would say treat them as a 'normal' Space Marine army, and then sprinkle some Dark Angel goodness - Ravenwing outflanking, deep striking Speeders (5 of those coming down with Multi-meltas will ruin a super heavy's day), I don't think there is much argument that Deathwing Knights are kinda awesome.

But here's the problem. You see, you have to pay points for all of that DA goodness. And well, you won't be able to fit everything you want into the list. Because of points.

 MWHistorian wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:


However, in a nutshell, I would say treat them as a 'normal' Space Marine army, and then sprinkle some Dark Angel goodness - Ravenwing outflanking, deep striking Speeders (5 of those coming down with Multi-meltas will ruin a super heavy's day), I don't think there is much argument that Deathwing Knights are kinda awesome.

But here's the problem. You see, you have to pay points for all of that DA goodness. And well, you won't be able to fit everything you want into the list. Because of points.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I have a friend who loves them so much he got a damn tattoo

Yeah, I might not love them that much...

The book is terrible.

They. Changed. The. Color. Of. My. Craftworld. WTF?

 Arschbombe wrote:
The book is terrible.

They. Changed. The. Color. Of. My. Craftworld. WTF?

What Craftworld?

Iybraesil. It was Hawk Turquoise (Sotek Green). Now it's blue-grey. Ugh.

 Arschbombe wrote:
Iybraesil. It was Hawk Turquoise (Sotek Green). Now it's blue-grey. Ugh.

They were already these colours since at least the previous codex.

No. The only image (p82) of Iybraesil in the 6th edition codex showed the same guardian from the 4th edition codex. Still Hawk Turquoise armor, white helmet with dark blue face, and bone catapult.

Now it's blue-grey with white helmets and red helmets. No new mini painted, just the colored drawing.

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

The others may not be asking for a tactics article, but I certainly am. Either you're the best DA player the world has ever seen and we must share in your wisdom or you're playing the worst eldar player on the planet.

Hmm, are you a member of the Inner Circle? Oh, you are. I'll have to see what I can do, give me a couple of weeks or so :

However, in a nutshell, I would say treat them as a 'normal' Space Marine army, and then sprinkle some Dark Angel goodness - Ravenwing outflanking, deep striking Speeders (5 of those coming down with Multi-meltas will ruin a super heavy's day), I don't think there is much argument that Deathwing Knights are kinda awesome.

That said, there are some things that might be more difficult to put into a tactics article but that are applicable to any army - you have to play not just the opposing army, but the opposing player as well. Actually, thinking about it, that could be more interesting to talk about...

 Quickjager wrote:


I want to see the battle report as well. Of course Mongoose you'd be playing DA.

Now I am kicking myself - I was 'this' close to taking photos of the game today and doing a battle report. But my mate came over, we started chatting... you know how it goes.

I'd love to play me some DA (I am a chaos player at heart after all), but their complete and utter inability to achieve results puts the brakes on that plan. If you could link a batrep of you beating Eldar with DA, it would be mighty helpful. Hell, even post the lists that you played the other day in your DA vs Eldar game. That'd be a great start and could put me on the right path.

Bharring wrote:
The basic Eldar weapon is the Shuriken Catapult.

Markedly worse against hordes than a Boltgun.

Some things in the Dex are generalistic, but not as much as most people think.

That's like saying the lasgun is a specialist rather than generalist because it is worse than a boltgun.

In fact if anything, I'd say the shuriken catapult is far more generalist than a boltgun. It is only ever so slightly worse against hordes due to jsj bit even better against 4+, 3+, and 2+ armour due to bladestorm. Whereas boltguns just excel at 5+ or worse. The shuriken is far more generalist than the boltgun, as it is decent against every armour value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also excels against high toughness-decent armour mcs due to all wounds causing no armour. A hit has 1/6 a chance to wound a fex, whereas a boltgun has 1/18 chance to wound a fex. So is better against even more things so more generalist.

Clearly Iybraesil is just trying out a new fashion. You can use the hawk colors like before and have those of us with an appreciation for those who excavate the crone worlds applaud you. ^_^

The new codex is not as terrifyingly OP as I feared it might be. As I don't personally use guardian bikers or wraith knights, I basically just got some nifty new aspect abilities to play with and a stronger incentive to use the exarchs I was already using anyway.

Jetbikes are probably the most terrifying thing in the book. My advice is to stick to the old 1 heavy per 3 bikes rule from before if you want to keep your friends. That said, It's actually more difficult to go out of your way to get the heavy weapons than to just use the same weapon loadouts you had access to before. In other words, don't be a dick, and they're fine. Obviously this is more problematic for tournament players, but I'm curious to see how the tournament meta adapts to them.

To play devil's advocate, however, I don't think the bikes are as untouchable as people seem to be pretending they are. I love hiding stuff behind BLOS terrain, but it's easier for your opponent to get a good angle on you than you might think. Wise terrain placement/selection also helps to mitigate this defense. Even if they jink, bikes don't exactly rival deathstar durability. They'll die to small arms fire or any gun that ignores cover (thunderfires, markerlights, etc.) just as easily as marines. Beasts move just as fast as them in the movement phase and have fleet to help close the gap. Jetbikes are still moving away faster than you're closing the gap, but they ought to be running out of space pretty quickly if they're moving away in a straight line. If they move off to the side, they're making it easier for you to catch up to them. Also, moving away from an assault unit while also keeping the right angle to utilize that BLOS terrain can be tricky. If there's a huge proliferation of BLOS terrain in your games, you ought to be able to use it to your advantage to hide from the bikes too. That's not to say they aren't a problem, but they aren't the untouchable gods of defense people seem to be implying they are either.

I'm not terribly familiar with gargantuan creatures, but the wraith knight *is* a bit silly. If it weren't for the FNP inherent in all GMCs, I'd be tempted to point out that the wraithknight will drop reasonably quickly to focused fire from krak missiles and lascannons, but that FNP makes it scary tough. The possible scattershield save adds to that, but to be fair, it does take away your best guns and leave your 'knight more or less stuck taking on a single unit a turn. I feel like we'll find a workable set of answers to the wraith knight soon enough, but he probably could have afforded to be either a lot more expensive or a little more fragile.

All in all, I'm looking forward to using this codex. It seems easy enough to avoid taking the really broken stuff in friendly games, and the new options on the aspects are just plain fun! Except maybe for the spider's reactive jump. That looks like a good way to annoy people... I'd be more worried about tournament games, but I'm not much of a tournament player myself.

Also, why do people keep saying the scatter laser is ap 4? Reports that they are AP 4 is imperial propaganda designed to increase resentment towards the eldar. ^_^

looking through the book I feel that it is an excellent codex. Some great options with tough choices for the eldar player. Only spammers will cause the community to yell "Uncle". I don;t even know where to begin with the book, I'm trying to field my Iyanden with harlequins (a really restrictive book) and finding I have to make severe sacrifices to do so.

I'm looking forward to putting it all together.

Wise terrain placement/selection also helps to mitigate this defense.

If one of the things you are depending on is being able to put the terrain up yourself to prevent their advantages, there's something a bit wrong.