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Points value wise for what it can do in the game? Flying hive tyrants, hands down. It can take a bottom tier army and with the inclusion of them make them championship tier all by themselves, and of course super cheap troops.

Standard infantry: Vangaurd or Ranger Skitarii (I can't decide)

Tank: Leman Russ

Fast Attack: Not sure.

Elite: hmmm....

deus ex.... I mean wraithknight

Special mention for Drop Pods, the only dedicated transport that isn't a big metal death box!

But seriously for me its between Tiggy, Flyrant or Scatbikes and I would probably go Scatbikes out of those 3.

Death Company are pretty awesome for what you get.

100 points get you 5 Power Armor marines with Bolt Pistols & CCW's, Frag & Krak grenades. These marines have 2 attacks each, and can swap their Bolt Pistols for Bolters for free. They also come with the following special rules:

Fearless
Feel no Pain (5+)
Relentless (Great for the Bolters)
Rage (+2 attacks on the charge? Yes please)
Furious Charge

100 more points gets you 5 more marines. So for 200 points you get 10 Marines with a veteran's stat line, a litany of special rules, armed for hand to hand or with Bolters for general utility that can be fired at all times without costing the unit the ability to charge in afterward.

Oh, and for 30 more (230 total) points that 10 man squad is now jump infantry with Hammer of Wrath attacks on the charge as well.

Resilient, hard hitting in close combat and respectable anti infantry shooting as well without costing an arm and a leg.

Oh, and this squad also benefits from +1 initiative if taken with the Blood Angels Baal strikeforce formation, for free.

Not bad for 200 to 230 points.

That's my submission. Take it easy everyone.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Death Company are pretty awesome for what you get.

100 points get you 5 Power Armor marines with Bolt Pistols & CCW's, Frag & Krak grenades. These marines have 2 attacks each, and can swap their Bolt Pistols for Bolters for free. They also come with the following special rules:

Fearless
Feel no Pain (5+)
Relentless (Great for the Bolters)
Rage (+2 attacks on the charge? Yes please)
Furious Charge

100 more points gets you 5 more marines. So for 200 points you get 10 Marines with a veteran's stat line, a litany of special rules, armed for hand to hand or with Bolters for general utility that can be fired at all times without costing the unit the ability to charge in afterward.

Oh, and for 30 more (230 total) points that 10 man squad is now jump infantry with Hammer of Wrath attacks on the charge as well.

Resilient, hard hitting in close combat and respectable anti infantry shooting as well without costing an arm and a leg.

Oh, and this squad also benefits from +1 initiative if taken with the Blood Angels Baal strikeforce formation, for free.

Not bad for 200 to 230 points.

That's my submission. Take it easy everyone.

-Red__Thirst-

This pretty much gets wrecked by a wraithknight. In both ranged and CC. And moves faster. I have never not had a wraithknight make back its points. Even just killing 1 Imperial Knight titan is more points than a wraithknight. The high amount of wounds and very good toughness combined with the ability to Jump over and ignore terrain, land on top of impassible terrain, ranged D-weapons, Deep strike ability (Jump), adding shoulder mounted starcannons/scatter lasers, Stomps, and that you can take more than 1 makes the wraithknight the top contender. And now that everything is scoring, good luck trying to take the relic from a wraithknight. Even on maelstrom missions the opponent can't score any points if they dont have the units to score them.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Death Company are pretty awesome for what you get.

100 points get you 5 Power Armor marines with Bolt Pistols & CCW's, Frag & Krak grenades. These marines have 2 attacks each, and can swap their Bolt Pistols for Bolters for free. They also come with the following special rules:

Fearless
Feel no Pain (5+)
Relentless (Great for the Bolters)
Rage (+2 attacks on the charge? Yes please)
Furious Charge

100 more points gets you 5 more marines. So for 200 points you get 10 Marines with a veteran's stat line, a litany of special rules, armed for hand to hand or with Bolters for general utility that can be fired at all times without costing the unit the ability to charge in afterward.

Oh, and for 30 more (230 total) points that 10 man squad is now jump infantry with Hammer of Wrath attacks on the charge as well.

Resilient, hard hitting in close combat and respectable anti infantry shooting as well without costing an arm and a leg.

Oh, and this squad also benefits from +1 initiative if taken with the Blood Angels Baal strikeforce formation, for free.

Not bad for 200 to 230 points.

That's my submission. Take it easy everyone.

-Red__Thirst-

I agree they're better than vanguard, but do they beat TWC?

Rough Riders.

If I had to name "the best character", I think Dante is pretty awesome. If you count only GW codex and supplements, he could be my favorite single model. And he's the longest living Space Marine!

If we're talking points value, as in "the most power for the points on a single model/unit", I would go with a Wraithknight, which just feels so undercosted. Playing RAW, being able to take 0-12 in a Warhost just seems wrong too.

If we're talking about points value as in, "the most ability to remove points in a game", in the sense of I think I have to go with Grav Centurions if we're allowed to add in a librarian (or better, Draigo). A good DraigoStar can just mulch way, way, way more points than its own points cost, and will probably garner more hate from your opponent than anything else.

 Talys wrote:
If I had to name "the best character", I think Dante is pretty awesome. If you count only GW codex and supplements, he could be my favorite single model. And he's the longest living Space Marine!

Bjorn is older

 FakeBritishPerson wrote:

 Talys wrote:
If I had to name "the best character", I think Dante is pretty awesome. If you count only GW codex and supplements, he could be my favorite single model. And he's the longest living Space Marine!

Bjorn is older

Yeah, you're right! I forgot about him. I guess there might be other really old space marines too Dante just kind of popped in my head, for some reason. He *is* awesome though!

Conscripts. Point for point, a 50 man blob brings so much bang for the buck.

Xerics wrote:

This pretty much gets wrecked by a wraithknight. In both ranged and CC. And moves faster. I have never not had a wraithknight make back its points. Even just killing 1 Imperial Knight titan is more points than a wraithknight. The high amount of wounds and very good toughness combined with the ability to Jump over and ignore terrain, land on top of impassible terrain, ranged D-weapons, Deep strike ability (Jump), adding shoulder mounted starcannons/scatter lasers, Stomps, and that you can take more than 1 makes the wraithknight the top contender. And now that everything is scoring, good luck trying to take the relic from a wraithknight. Even on maelstrom missions the opponent can't score any points if they dont have the units to score them.

My example is a single elites choice. Yours is a Lord of War. I realize it's all about comparisons, but a Lord of War *Should* Stomp the living crap out of most elite choices. Ya wanna know the difference? I can field my example in any Blood Angels list anywhere, any time. Your pretty little Wraithknight may never see the tabletop if you're playing against someone who doesn't want to play against a list with a LoW in it. Just saying.

hiveof_chimera wrote:I agree they're better than vanguard, but do they beat TWC?

How many TWC can you get for 230 points? I think the DC will carry the day, as the'll be able to shoot the TWC on the way in with 10 shots out to 24" and likely another 20 shots within 12" before the DC then charge.
Assuming the DC (Armed with just Bolters & Chainswords mind you) get to move up and pull off the charge vs. TWC: Against T:5 that's ~7 hits, with ~2 wounds with the first Bolter salvo, and doubling that for the second volley of 20 Bolter shots, equals ~14 hits and ~4 more wounds. Then you get into close combat, with 10 Hammer of Wrath hits at I:10, wounding ~3 times on average against T:5 TWC. Then 40 ST:5, I:5 attacks at WS:4, ~20 hits, ~10 wounds. Then the TWC get to swing if any models are left standing (Assuming TWC are I:4, which I do believe they are). So before the TWC even get to attack, they've been wounded ~2+~4+~3+~10= ~19 times. Failing one out of three saves on average, you lose 6 wounds total, or 3 TWC before the TWC can swing.

TWC have more attacks per model, and 2x wounds per model, but the DC edge them out in damage output both leading up to, and during the initial round of combat. Also, the DC's jump packs let them hop over terrain that the TWC would have to either go around or cut through, slowing them down somewhat (Unless the TWC ignore cover or have Move Through Cover, not 100% sure on their special rules at present) and allowing the DC to get into better position to charge in instead of being charged by the TWC.

Just my musings on that. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

hiveof_chimera wrote:I agree they're better than vanguard, but do they beat TWC?

How many TWC can you get for 230 points? I think the DC will carry the day, as the'll be able to shoot the TWC on the way in with 10 shots out to 24" and likely another 20 shots within 12" before the DC then charge.
Assuming the DC (Armed with just Bolters & Chainswords mind you) get to move up and pull off the charge vs. TWC: Against T:5 that's ~7 hits, with ~2 wounds with the first Bolter salvo, and doubling that for the second volley of 20 Bolter shots, equals ~14 hits and ~4 more wounds. Then you get into close combat, with 10 Hammer of Wrath hits at I:10, wounding ~3 times on average against T:5 TWC. Then 40 ST:5, I:5 attacks at WS:4, ~20 hits, ~10 wounds. Then the TWC get to swing if any models are left standing (Assuming TWC are I:4, which I do believe they are). So before the TWC even get to attack, they've been wounded ~2+~4+~3+~10= ~19 times. Failing one out of three saves on average, you lose 6 wounds total, or 3 TWC before the TWC can swing.

TWC have more attacks per model, and 2x wounds per model, but the DC edge them out in damage output both leading up to, and during the initial round of combat. Also, the DC's jump packs let them hop over terrain that the TWC would have to either go around or cut through, slowing them down somewhat (Unless the TWC ignore cover or have Move Through Cover, not 100% sure on their special rules at present) and allowing the DC to get into better position to charge in instead of being charged by the TWC.

Just my musings on that. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

You can get five for 200 points so with wound allocations shenanigans by moving models to the back, you can keep guys alive longer.
Bolters alone do 0.73 outside Rapid fire and 1.46 inside Rapid Fire wounds, so shove them on different models and to the back.
HoW does 1.08 so put that on a non-wounded model.
40 S5 attacks = 3.3. wounds so kill one guy and put the last wound on the non wounded model, meaning four 1w remaining TWC.
TWC cavalry strike back with 16 attacks, doing 1.18 wounds after saves and FnP


Wounds remaining: DC= 8.82 wounds, TWC = 3.43
Models: DC = 9, TWC = 4

Next round, everyone strikes at the same time.
TWC do another 1.18 wounds, DC do 0.98 wounds
Wounds remaining: DC 7.64, TWC = 2.45
Models: DC = 8, TWC = 3

Next round 3 TWC do 0.89 wounds, DC do 0.76 wounds.
Wounds remaining: DC = 6.75, TWC = 1.69
Models: DC = 7, TWC = 2

Next round TWC do 0.59 wounds, DC do 0.76 wounds
Wounds remaining: DC = 6.16, TWC = 0.93
Models: DC = 7, TWC = 1

Next round TWC do 0.30 wounds, DC do 0.76 wounds
Wounds remaining: DC = 5.86, TWC = 0.17
Models: DC = 6, TWC = 1.

Next round the Death Company will kill the last TWC and consilidate, having 5.56 wounds remaining.

So, in ideal circumstances (that would be Death Company getting the charge, despite TWC ignoring difficult terrain and having Fleet from Cavalry to increasee their chance of a successful charge, or taking Bolters as opposed to Pistols to get an additional attack - Bolters were used in this analysis so 4 attacks per TWC - or the TWC not using the last 30 points to get two Lightning Claws, or a Thunderhammer, or having a big enough charge so that HoW is obtained by all the Death Company, or TWC not having a single Rending it -analysis was done without Rending in mind - then yes, Death Company would win.

Anyone want to do the stats for if the TWC get the (more likely) charge, particulary with Wolf Claws/Thunder Hammer to match the points cost of JP Death Company?

Not knocking DC, they are good. But I personally feel TWC take the cake when it comes to IoM CC units.

For my melee unit I'd nominate striking scorpions, for sake of fairness let's give both units charge.
For 200 points I'd get ~9 scorpions, exarch with scorps claw.
Firstly HoW, and Mandiblasters=
10 HoW ~2.2 wounds
9 Mandiblasters ~ 3 wounds.
Firstly exarch does (don't know if they have characters to challenge) ~ 1.5 wounds
6 Scorpions do ~2.25 wounds
remaining 3 DC do (melee+pistol)~ 2.08 wounds.

The next turn the scorps finish em off.
And against 5 TWC

Not sure if they have HoW, but this is without, this will also show what happens if he declines/accepts exarch challenge.
TWC Accepts challenge.
Mandiblasters do ~4wounds
Exarch does ~2.66 killing enemy challenger
Scorps then do 1.33 wounds
(8 total wounded) assume wound allocation to spread wounds(except Sarg)
3 1W TWC do ~ 1.33
Following turn, exarch and Mandiblasters do ~ 3.33 wounds finishing em off

TWC decline challenge
Mandiblasters do ~ 4 wounds
Exarch does ~1.77
Scorpions do ~1.33
Assuming wound allocation shenenigans
3 survive with a wound, only 2 can attack since model declined challenge
2 do ~.889 wounds while 3 do 1.33(no character to challenge)
During following turn, exarch and Mandiblasters finish em off

Scorps work quite well eh, and they finish off the enemy models in the oppenents melee phase, far from the best unit but by far my favourite(model, lore and rules wise)

Edit: it seems I didn't factor in that TWC have 5 attacks on charge, not 4 though this doesn't help them win is there anything else I missed?

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

hiveof_chimera wrote:I agree they're better than vanguard, but do they beat TWC?

How many TWC can you get for 230 points? I think the DC will carry the day, as the'll be able to shoot the TWC on the way in with 10 shots out to 24" and likely another 20 shots within 12" before the DC then charge.
Assuming the DC (Armed with just Bolters & Chainswords mind you) get to move up and pull off the charge vs. TWC: Against T:5 that's ~7 hits, with ~2 wounds with the first Bolter salvo, and doubling that for the second volley of 20 Bolter shots, equals ~14 hits and ~4 more wounds. Then you get into close combat, with 10 Hammer of Wrath hits at I:10, wounding ~3 times on average against T:5 TWC. Then 40 ST:5, I:5 attacks at WS:4, ~20 hits, ~10 wounds. Then the TWC get to swing if any models are left standing (Assuming TWC are I:4, which I do believe they are). So before the TWC even get to attack, they've been wounded ~2+~4+~3+~10= ~19 times. Failing one out of three saves on average, you lose 6 wounds total, or 3 TWC before the TWC can swing.

TWC have more attacks per model, and 2x wounds per model, but the DC edge them out in damage output both leading up to, and during the initial round of combat. Also, the DC's jump packs let them hop over terrain that the TWC would have to either go around or cut through, slowing them down somewhat (Unless the TWC ignore cover or have Move Through Cover, not 100% sure on their special rules at present) and allowing the DC to get into better position to charge in instead of being charged by the TWC.

Just my musings on that. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

You can get five for 200 points so with wound allocations shenanigans by moving models to the back, you can keep guys alive longer.
Bolters alone do 0.73 outside Rapid fire and 1.46 inside Rapid Fire wounds, so shove them on different models and to the back.
HoW does 1.08 so put that on a non-wounded model.
40 S5 attacks = 3.3. wounds so kill one guy and put the last wound on the non wounded model, meaning four 1w remaining TWC.
TWC cavalry strike back with 16 attacks, doing 1.18 wounds after saves and FnP


Wounds remaining: DC= 8.82 wounds, TWC = 3.43
Models: DC = 9, TWC = 4

Next round, everyone strikes at the same time.
TWC do another 1.18 wounds, DC do 0.98 wounds
Wounds remaining: DC 7.64, TWC = 2.45
Models: DC = 8, TWC = 3

Next round 3 TWC do 0.89 wounds, DC do 0.76 wounds.
Wounds remaining: DC = 6.75, TWC = 1.69
Models: DC = 7, TWC = 2

Next round TWC do 0.59 wounds, DC do 0.76 wounds
Wounds remaining: DC = 6.16, TWC = 0.93
Models: DC = 7, TWC = 1

Next round TWC do 0.30 wounds, DC do 0.76 wounds
Wounds remaining: DC = 5.86, TWC = 0.17
Models: DC = 6, TWC = 1.

Next round the Death Company will kill the last TWC and consilidate, having 5.56 wounds remaining.

So, in ideal circumstances (that would be Death Company getting the charge, despite TWC ignoring difficult terrain and having Fleet from Cavalry to increasee their chance of a successful charge, or taking Bolters as opposed to Pistols to get an additional attack - Bolters were used in this analysis so 4 attacks per TWC - or the TWC not using the last 30 points to get two Lightning Claws, or a Thunderhammer, or having a big enough charge so that HoW is obtained by all the Death Company, or TWC not having a single Rending it -analysis was done without Rending in mind - then yes, Death Company would win.

Anyone want to do the stats for if the TWC get the (more likely) charge, particulary with Wolf Claws/Thunder Hammer to match the points cost of JP Death Company?

Not knocking DC, they are good. But I personally feel TWC take the cake when it comes to IoM CC units.

DC can beat the TW if they charge - if they don't they get massacred by wolves. AND they are much harder to gun down. TWC are better hands down. DC are not bad though - but being toughness 4 and a prevalence of rapid fire battle cannons on table tops...there is almost no reason to take them.

 Chootum wrote:
Conscripts. Point for point, a 50 man blob brings so much bang for the buck.

Every time I bring a conscript squad they perform better than expected. I always give them a higher leadership model, like a Commissar or a Priest, so I don't know if that counts, though.

I think I saw 1 person post saying anything about an Ork unit being the best at anything .........


Balance.

The new Kataphron Destroyers cost 165 points and can drop 18 AP2 grav cannon shots in a round of shooting.

 Owain wrote:
The new Kataphron Destroyers cost 165 points and can drop 18 AP2 grav cannon shots in a round of shooting.

Daemonettes > Kataphron destroyers

Unit not model eh? I'll speak up for the Orks.

Green Tide: 10 Squads of Boyz and Warboss as one unit, they all have hammer of wrath and Waaagh every turn too I believe.

Ghazzy's Waaagh Council: Ghazzy, Mad Dok Grot, Big Mek, 2 Warboss's and a squad of Nobz as one unit. The 2 Warboss's get +1 WS, Nobz have to bring a Waaagh banner bringing WS up another +1 gives fearless and allows other units within 12" of the to reroll morale and pinning, Ghazzy gets two additional Warlord traits on top of what he has in his profile, With the right equipment and relics on the Big Mek and Warbosses I can see an expensive death star here