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 Selym wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Well shoot, Grav exists, buff the Wraithknight! Hmm, no.

Wait, you mean you think the WK isn't underpowered? At best it can one-shot a tank, that's hardly much. I've seen Lascannons one-shot a tank, and nobody ever called them op. You can take dozens of the things.

Yes, they can one shot a tank, or an Imperial Knight, or a Tervigon. And stomps. Heck, I'm sure against most armies, the Wraithknights do more damage simply by charging things, even without the melee weapon.

So no, Wraithknights are not underpowered.

T'was the joke before srsness, when all through the forum, no sense of humour appeared, not even a giggle.

Hard to tell online, but I figured as much.

Are you serious? 1 Daemon Prince at 250 can smash a 370pts IK. The DP gas an invul to dodge the chainsword and the higher WS makes it harder for the IK to land a hit on the dp.

 Filch wrote:
Are you serious? 1 Daemon Prince at 250 can smash a 370pts IK. The DP gas an invul to dodge the chainsword and the higher WS makes it harder for the IK to land a hit on the dp.

Sorry? Join the rest of us?

Martel732 wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Are you serious? 1 Daemon Prince at 250 can smash a 370pts IK. The DP gas an invul to dodge the chainsword and the higher WS makes it harder for the IK to land a hit on the dp.

Sorry? Join the rest of us?

But the problem is that the majority of "the rest of us" don't pay 400pts for a single model. A unit that costs that much should be able to hold up at least a little but they tend to open like poorly manufactured tin cans. Kinda the same issue as regular dreads but on a much larger scale.

I propose 2 glancing hits is required to cause 1 glancing hit on a Super heavy walker.

Like I said before, reducing the cost of the Gallant to 295 like a Wraith Knight with glaive and shield would make things even. Also knocking off 30pts on each IK variant would make everything on par with WK.

What if we can add a shield on the Reaper Chain Sword which would confer a 6++ in combat? This shield would be place towards the back of the sword and be like a parring buckler. What if the TS Gauntlet also had that shield option and when combined with the other shield on a Reaper Chain sword it would grant a 5++ in close combat. The shield would be on the back of the hand also like a buckler.

In order for it to not be like the Chaos IK which becomes a daemon granting a 5++ in shooting and combat. The little buckler shields would only work in combat in conjunction with the ion shields which only stops incoming ranged fire. The cost of the shield on the reaper chain sword would cost more than the one bought on by the TS gauntlet because the TS gauntlet already costs 10pts. For example a Warden with a TS gauntlet can get the shield for 15pts. If it only had the reaper chain sword then the shield option for that arm would be 25pts. A gallant can then spend 25pts to get a reaper chain sword buckler and 15pts to get a guantlet buckler.

Would a 365pt Gallant with 5++ in close combat be cost effective? Not when you have a WK at 295. but it is a nice option to have.

A single model with quite a bit of firepower, a D-weapon on one arm, 6 Hull Points, immune to the damage table, and an Invuln on one facing is more than most of us can fit into 500 pts.

I think Imperial Knights are fine as they are.
They probably are a bit too good against TAC armies, but in general the points are about right.

 Selym wrote:
A single model with quite a bit of firepower, a D-weapon on one arm, 6 Hull Points, immune to the damage table, and an Invuln on one facing is more than most of us can fit into 500 pts.

Eldar

warlock skyrunner @50

wind rider with 3 scat @81
wind rider with 2 scat @71

Wraith Knight (glaive n shield ) @295

Under 500pts.

1 IK will die easily to 5 scatter laser glancing side armor 12 and the WK will win combat at I5 before an IK gets a swing off. Gargantuan can not be stomped by IK. GG your IK is jenk compared to WK.

 Filch wrote:

 Selym wrote:
A single model with quite a bit of firepower, a D-weapon on one arm, 6 Hull Points, immune to the damage table, and an Invuln on one facing is more than most of us can fit into 500 pts.

Eldar

warlock skyrunner @50

wind rider with 3 scat @81
wind rider with 2 scat @71

Wraith Knight (glaive n shield ) @295

Under 500pts.

1 IK will die easily to 5 scatter laser glancing side armor 12 and the WK will win combat at I5 before an IK gets a swing off. Gargantuan can not be stomped by IK. GG your IK is jenk compared to WK.

*most of us

Eldar cheese is an established fact in this, and many, editions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A better solution is to nerf Eldar than to buff IK.

Although I was asking to reduce price of IK. I would rather see WK taxed 50pts or more.

I think Knights are ok as is, the problem is more when they have to face wraithknights than a problem with the knight itself.

The day that a WK costs ~400 points, and Scatterbikes get some sort of restriction is the day we can safely say 40k is getting closer to balanced.

 Filch wrote:

 Selym wrote:
A single model with quite a bit of firepower, a D-weapon on one arm, 6 Hull Points, immune to the damage table, and an Invuln on one facing is more than most of us can fit into 500 pts.

Eldar

warlock skyrunner @50

wind rider with 3 scat @81
wind rider with 2 scat @71

Wraith Knight (glaive n shield ) @295

Under 500pts.

1 IK will die easily to 5 scatter laser glancing side armor 12 and the WK will win combat at I5 before an IK gets a swing off. Gargantuan can not be stomped by IK. GG your IK is jenk compared to WK.

What is this? An army losing to Eldar? Never!

Yeah, I'd go for those changes. 450 for the WK, and heavier weapons at 1 in 3 for Windriders, yes. Maybe make the scatter laser 20 points per model, but then let me take starcannons, 1 in 3, at 20 points per as well.

Eliminate scatterlaser as a choice for bikes entirely. They can already spam that stupid weapon so hard it's crazy.

Yeah, the comparisons with WKs doesn't mean Knights need buffs, but that WKs need nerfs.

 Filch wrote:

Also knocking off 30pts on each IK variant would make everything on par with WK.

'On par with a Wraithknight' is exactly where the game should not be heading IMO. If your metric for a unit's worth is that a Wraithknight does more, congratulations! You are on the right side of balance.
The simple solution to me is that an army of nothing-but-Knights is obviously, inherently imbalanced because exactly as mentioned earlier, you are playing Rock-Paper-Scissors with nothing but Rocks. The fluff makes plenty of allowance for non-Knight models and I'd suggest that all-Knight armies are supposed to be a rarity rather than the norm.

A good cloud of fodder around the Knight's ankles will do a decent job at deterring any drop-D or Melta. Get some bodies in the way of that Daemon Prince and he won't be swinging into AV. Even dropping a single Knight is going to give you enough points for an Imperial Command Squad and a chunky Platoon with some Conscripts. If you're a traitor, you get an even better deal out of IA13 Renegades and can swarm with 3pt Traitors that recycle after dying.

Taking nothing but Rocks and then complaining that they get Paper'd is no indication that the Rock is faulty. There has to be some player responsibility for creating a viable list and not only recognising the limits of your models, but taking corrective steps to prevent them becoming a liability. It's not your opponent's fault that they have found a way to topple Knights, and so you have the choice to either focus harder on downing his threat units, or changing up your army build to include a natural counter.

 Dramagod2 wrote:
I know that asking for balance in this games is kinda a lost cause, but I suppose Im just asking for some type of balance among the superheavies. I realize that for people who don't play knights that you think Im griping over nothing, but anyone who plays them or uses them regularly knows that when compared to other superheavies in the games, they just don't stand up. If I face an eldar army with two wraithknights and a score of other units, either the two wraithknights alone shouldn't be able to wipe out my entire army or my army should be able to hold up better against them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It just doesnt make sense to have the wraithknight for its cost and then the imperial knight for it's cost, atleast one needs to be changed for there to be any semblance of balance or fairness between the superheavies of different factions

Don't try to compare wraithknights to anything else, if you do then everything is underpowered and in need of massive buffs. Imperial Knights are quite good and they see a fair amount of tournament play. Sure they have counters but a big portion of the game is about picking your engagements, movement, and target priority. Also Imp Knights are great as support to an army but in being the majority of your force (people who play Imperial Knights as the entirety of their army) it becomes a case that the enemy has enough counters to kill your stuff or they don't and get stomped into the ground.

Buff knights?

Considering how many units have 0 chance of hurting a knight its hard to take any of the posts asking for improvements to IKs as anything other than crackhead mary sue fantasies.

I am sorry that out of the ocean of models that have absolutely 0 chance of hurting a knight some can potentially kill a knight if the knight doesn't kill them first, welcome to how most people have to play the game.

blaktoof wrote:
Considering how many units have 0 chance of hurting a knight its hard to take any of the posts asking for improvements to IKs as anything other than crackhead mary sue fantasies.

I am sorry that out of the ocean of models that have absolutely 0 chance of hurting a knight some can potentially kill a knight if the knight doesn't kill them first, welcome to how most people have to play the game.

You sound like you're suffering from post traumatic stomp disorder....

 Dramagod2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Considering how many units have 0 chance of hurting a knight its hard to take any of the posts asking for improvements to IKs as anything other than crackhead mary sue fantasies.

I am sorry that out of the ocean of models that have absolutely 0 chance of hurting a knight some can potentially kill a knight if the knight doesn't kill them first, welcome to how most people have to play the game.

You sound like you're suffering from post traumatic stomp disorder....

To be reasonable, Knights are SHV, and do not suffer the vehicle damage table like normal vehicles do, they really do not need any buffing. The next IK codex could come out with 0 changes to it, except increase the costs of knights by +50pts each- and people would still play them as often. Same for WKS for that matter. Heck if WKs jumped up +100pts, you would still see them pretty much the same amount.

 Filch wrote:
Are you serious? 1 Daemon Prince at 250 can smash a 370pts IK. The DP gas an invul to dodge the chainsword and the higher WS makes it harder for the IK to land a hit on the dp.

Filch you know that a Wraithknight will get smashed too?

 GoonBandito wrote:
Baleswords (Nurgle Greater Magic Weapon for 20pts) have Instant Death. If you happen to get Iron Arm as a psychic power, which isn't unreasonable if you are a ML3 Psyker, then you are WS9, S9, I8, AP2, Poisoned 4+, Instant Death. You'll be wounding Wraithknights on a 3+ (re-rolling because of higher Strength with a poisoned weapon), ignoring its FNP and doing d3 wounds for each unsaved.

Maybe don't try and kill a souped-up DP in melee! If you insist on doing things the hard way, at the very least take a Lancer and use the Concussive weapon first so you get an advantage in Initiative.

MC smashing gets to re roll penetration hits on vehicles . Does a MC get to reroll to wound on a GMC?

Being a GMC has so many advantages over SHV. Poison only wounds on a 6s. Often gets free fnp. Often has an invul save.

I'd prefer no GMCs and no SHVs at all. I can't stand how the catastrophic explosion kills my 4+ save melta teams... that's how it is though.

Survive, adapt, win.

 Filch wrote:
MC smashing gets to re roll penetration hits on vehicles . Does a MC get to reroll to wound on a GMC?

Being a GMC has so many advantages over SHV. Poison only wounds on a 6s. Often gets free fnp. Often has an invul save.

Wait. The WK is a GMC?

For FETH's sake.

You're gonna love the new Riptide, then

Yoyoyo wrote:
You're gonna love the new Riptide, then

What new Riptide? You mean that ungodly KXV-136 Supremacy Battlesuit?

Yoyoyo wrote:
You're gonna love the new Riptide, then

At least I can Dop Pod some Grav.

Bloody 'Tides.

THe only issue I find with a full army of Knights is that, depite it being a wall of rocks and laughing at all the scissor players out there, is that there is way to much Paper in the game at the moment, for fractions of the points cost.

When a unit of 5 Wraithguard for 160(?) points can remove ~500 points of Imperial Walking Fortress it does beg the question why bother.

Also, Imperial Knights themselves can do quite a lot even before you factor in the opposing army. 5 ObSec SHW will be able to out-score a lot of armies, Scatbike spam amongst them.

I'll admit they need some ignores cover, but thats about all they're missing at the current points cost.