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I have cheap horde Shermans for US Armor, and am not tempted to upgrade to easy eights or jumbos. The only consideration is facing tanks with high side armour.

agree Jumbo +2 easy Eight+ 75mm Sherman is a beast to go against also if you are going canadian 2 Firefly+2 Sherman Vs is also good against tanks

That doesn't sound too bad actually. Because even if their gear is better, you've still got more decently equipped units and other toys to bring that to a stop. While it sounds awesome to field so many Comets and Pershins like it's going out of style, I think I'd stick with workhorse tanks like Ghaz mentioned. Get a more for the price I pay.

I think if I can squeeze the points in, I might drop some stuff for a priority Typhoon. Does priority make it come more reliably? I recall that you have to roll to see if it arrives, and then do something akin to rolling for scatter. I'd imagine it would be better to shell out for priority because I don't have that much heavy hitting stuff to counter thicker skinned enemy units.

If I don't do that, I'll probably pick up some heavier artillery instead of mortars. Maybe some Sextons or towed 25pdrs. Or just get more 17pdrs.

I should probably stick to working on those armored recce list, but I'm curious, how is a company of Churchills? It seems like it would be too lumbering to actually get anything done outside of tank shots. That 13 front armor the Chuch VII gets sounds amazing, but I think in the Overlord list you only get one VII per squad. It just seems to me like it would be too slow to get things done.

One other question: a friend of mine asked what was the "easiest" force to collect. I'm talking price wise and model count wise. We're working with a limited budget so I recommended Germany (as they field smaller, but more elite forces.) What would you recommend to someone who's just starting out and has a limited budget?

The only difference between Priority/Limited/Sporadic Air Support is the number of dice that are in your initial Air Support pool (7/5/3 dice respectively).

Which makes a lot of difference, as a large Air support pool allows more intercepts and means you have a vety good chance of getting air support on every turn of the game.

If you are relying on Typhoons to turn up to deal with heavy tanks, it pays for them to turn up. Air support is considered random, but then so it rolling to hit. Priority air support is statistically reliable and turns up exactly where you want it.

However an opponents air support pool is like dispel dice/deny the witch and can be rolled to counter an airstrike. So it pays to have more. Every time you use dice the pool decreases by 1, successful or not.

 Orlanth wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
One quick correction regarding British special rules -

There are national rules for British tanks. Most of them are for Early War and Mid War, though. The one that's available in Late War is the semi-indirect fire rule, which makes it easier for British tanks to hit targets at long range.

It was better to tell the truth that there are none, than hope with the lie by reading the special rules available only to find that none of them apply in Late War, except tow hooks.

So....

Please show me in the rule-book where it states that Semi-Indirect Fire is not available in Late War?

Interesting, so calling in air support takes one die from the total pool you have. I take it there's no refreshing uses? Are any dice used to intercept or is that just a free roll?

 blitzfenrir wrote:
Interesting, so calling in air support takes one die from the total pool you have... Are any dice used to intercept or is that just a free roll?

Clearly answered under 'Fighter Interception' on page 179 of the Flames of War v3 rulebook.

Eumerin wrote:


So....

Please show me in the rule-book where it states that Semi-Indirect Fire is not available in Late War?

So please show me in the rulebook where semi-indirect fire does anything useful for an armour list..

Does it allow your tanks to have a stormtrooper move like Germans?
Or keep full ROF at -1 to hit like US stabiliser?

Every faction has window dressing. I discount that. Hard effective rules are different though, British artillery have tangible advantages as do artillery. British tanks do not in Late War.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blitzfenrir wrote:
Interesting, so calling in air support takes one die from the total pool you have. I take it there's no refreshing uses? Are any dice used to intercept or is that just a free roll?

You roll your entire dice pool each time you roll, but each time you roll you roll one less die. The single dice pool are used in attack and defence both so you get to roll it every player turn until its exhausted if you so choose and there is something to intercept.
The machanics are rather good, you rarely exhaust the entire pool as you only need one success and once you drop below four dice your chances of getting air support are unreliable.

The main advantage for SI in an armoured list is that occasional game where your firefly/challenger accidentally survives to both be outside 16", having not moved and being able to actually hit something.

Even Soviet Indirect is more effective, what with SU-85s being cheaper and more numerous, and SU-100s and SU-85Ms being cheaper, just as numerous, and tougher, at usually a similar Skill/Motivation rating. SU-100s even out-range 17pdrs, and therefore most guns capable of returning fire, so they're even more well-equipped to take advantage of Cat Killer. The downside on the 85s is a lower AT rating, and on the 100 is a lower RoF than the 17pdr, but both the 85 and 100 get HE--which no instance of the 17pdr does--so can even target infantry if needed, whereas 17pdrs are stumped completely by infantry.

Semi-Indirect is a cherry on a cupcake. Most British tanks die if they sit still, and can't SI if they move, so rarely end up using it. The Challenger's RoF3 17pdr is good on paper, until you realise that it'll be sitting under smoke the entire game, or is immediately gun-tanked by every AT weapon in the enemy army if it isn't dashing from cover to cover. The same goes for Fireflies. Achilles are glass cannons you take to ambush something more expensive than they were, kill it, and then die next turn--they don't even get SI. Only Archers provide a more reasonable 17pdr base, because they're cheap and reasonably numerous, but not many lists get them, neither do they get SI.

The regular 75mm that every other armoured platoon has gets about as much use out of Semi-Indirect as an alcoholic gets out of a single fermented grape he found behind a bookshelf.

Well a 2 Sherman V with 2 Firefly's platoons work very well with each together the Sherman smoke while Firefly SI fire into enemy tanks very good against Tiger and Panthers

The only point that tactic is really feasible is with Veteran Shermans defending against attacking cats. If you're attacking, you'll be moving and the enemy Cats will be at long range, likely concealed and gone to ground. You'll be hitting on 6s against Trained Cats, and not at all against Veterans until they open fire, they're no longer concealed, or you come within 16".

Since Veteran Shermans are so costly, you'll only start with 2-3 platoons on the table in defence, and one or both will be your armoured platoons, because they're the only things that can reliably kill the enemy tanks. You'll also likely have 2 objective to guard, reasonably far from each other. If you focus both platoons on defending one, the other will be captured, so you must spread out. This allows the entire enemy tank force to bear down on one objective, guarded only by two 17pdrs. Cheaper Panzer IVs and StuGs can close the distance, baiting you into opening fire and breaking GtG whilst Cats linger in the distance. Recce can close to bait or lift, whichever comes first, or hold back and go for quick objective grabs.

Once you open fire, or the enemy closes the gap, you have lost your 17pdrs. They will be gun-tanked out of the platoon quicker than a fat kid would eat a chocolate cake by the entire enemy force. They know that 2 75mms pose so little threat compared to the 17pdrs that it's not even funny. They only need to bail or kill one remaining Sherman before you're testing morale.

If you bring your other platoon to help out then enemy Recce can grab the objective, so you have to leave something to contest it, or wait for reserves, and the game has a real chance of being over before you can even make a reserve roll. If you managed to start with three platoons, sending one to reinforce is an easier decision, but it also means you're likely playing 1750pts, so there'll be 250 more points to reinforce against.

If you start with both Sherman platoons guarding on objective, the attack force can simply leave a guard to blast at any platoon leaving its post, and push towards the lesser-guarded objective. It's rare that you'll be able to sufficiently guard all your objectives with both Sherman platoons.

If you're attacking with the Shermans, you have several issues. The first is that your armoured platoons are small, few in number, and make up the majority of your army. If you opted for Trained Shermans, you can be picked apart from range with excellent precision. You're only FA6, hit on 4s at long range, and cannot utilise SI on the move.

You're also either against tanks, or infantry. Lots of infantry. Against tanks, you do the same as in the above scenario, you bum-rush an objective with everything you have. This leaves no chance for SI to ever come into play. If you stay still then you're no closer to the objective, and you die, simple. Against infantry, you hope you brought artillery to pin them down, because your Shermans aren't US ones, with MGs stuck to every clean surface. You're also only 4 tanks strong, and against entrenched enemies, liable to take a lot of defensive fire shots in an assault unless you fired smoke.

Unfortunately, Fireflies are useless here. They have no smoke, have no HE, and can only participate against infantry in assaults or using their single co-ax MG. You paid through the nose for 2 Fireflies that cannot do anything to non-vehicles. This is where the enemy can successfully gun-tank your 75mms out, and win. Your fireflies cannot return fire, cannot smoke, and with 2 tanks, cannot reliably assault. You effectively come into a game with 2/2 Shermans/FFs against infantry, with only half a force you paid full price for.

---

All of that is not to say that British Armour is completely useless and horribly underpowered--even though it is--but highlights just how little use SI is to an armoured list in anything, ever. Your best use of SI is with a single 2/2 platoon in an infantry company, because you'll be defending most of the time, you can generally afford Veteran status, and your 17pdrs can wait for big targets whilst the Late 6pdrs shred everything else. Your Shermans needn't move and needn't fire until enemy cats do, because cheap, terrifically effective 6pdrs do the workhorse destruction. At range, with Veteran status and gone to ground, your Shermans are untouchable, and once the enemy cats pounce, they can be beaten back by a volley of 17pdrs from nowhere.

That's some really good information there. Makes me unsure about whether I actually want to run UK armored. Double checked the Cromwell and it doesn't get Broadside, which would've been awesome for using that speed it has. Considering my main AT comes from either Fireflys, Challengers, or 17pdrs, it doesn't seem like a great idea. They can get singled out and turned into scrap really easily. That indirect fire rule seems...really really strange given how mobile the tanks should be.

Looking at the rules, the US looks like a really good armored option. If I really don't go Brit Armored I think I'll pick up Blood, Guts, and Glory and go US with those stabilizers.

Or I might give into my inner fanboy and go German, as the Pz4s don't seem too bad, and I can supplement with panthers and the like.

go BGG and go the classic Jumbo+ 2 Easy Eight+ 75mm Sherman platoon, it is a beast or King Tiger or jagdtiger

The BG&G 4th Tank army is great. You don't get access to 76s on the Jumbos so your E8s can get gun-tanked, but it's a fair balancing factor, and you have more than enough manoeuvrability to avoid crippling return fire and also stay effective. The only other armoured list you might have problems against is a Tankovy horde of /85s, through sheer numbers alone.

You won't do too well against infantry with your small numbers of tanks, but taking a unit of 105 Shermans can give you a good number of Breakthrough Guns for digging infantry out of their foxholes.

Most people tend to take Patton along with this list so they get the 3+ motivation rolls, reserve re-rolls, Spearhead moves, and Always Attacks.

If you want 76mm jumbo, you can take them in B@R,
Here is a1900 list of BGG
HQ w/E8 and Jumbo
2 E8s, Jumbo, Sherman
2 E8s, Jumbo, Sherman
3 105 Shermans
3 Priests
3 Priests
Recon
Patton
AOP
Patton with one of the tank platoon spearhead.
Recon use Eyes and Ears on the GtG and prevent ambush.
AOP and Priests destroy dug-in infantry.
The tank platoon are to flank with full moving because of the Easy Eight rule, Sherman for smoke, and Jumbo for armour.

any platoon with the command team in line of sight of Patton gets to spear head not just one platoon

Oh Yeah. Even better, then send both of the tank platoon and the recon platoon.

bobjoerock wrote:
If you want 76mm jumbo, you can take them in B@R,
Here is a1900 list of BGG
HQ w/E8 and Jumbo
2 E8s, Jumbo, Sherman
2 E8s, Jumbo, Sherman
3 105 Shermans
3 Priests
3 Priests
Recon
Patton
AOP
Patton with one of the tank platoon spearhead.
Recon use Eyes and Ears on the GtG and prevent ambush.
AOP and Priests destroy dug-in infantry.
The tank platoon are to flank with full moving because of the Easy Eight rule, Sherman for smoke, and Jumbo for armour.

Hope you don't mind about me asking some questions about that list:
Why do you take the 105 Shermans? As well as the double group of priests.
What would you take for recon outside of the AOP? The AOP seems useful but...incredibly flimsy if I want it to actually scout.
Couldn't I take standard M4A3 76s or even M4A1 76s instead of E8s? Or does that suspension really make a huge difference?
It doesn't look like you really get much for units. How do you deal with larger groups of units? It seems like it would be too small to handle a lot of guys at once.

Back to the original topic of Cromwells vs Shermans, there doesn't...really seem like there's a lot going for them looking back. It sounds great on paper that I could sally forth with the speed of an LT with Sherman stats, but it's really lacking. I guess their real strength is in their infantry and I should look more at making an infantry company with armored support rather than armored company with infantry. Shermans seem better overall, given the special rules and how you can get more 76 guns out to counter heavier tanks.

I'll look more into the US with BGG, as that seems like my cup of tea, but how are the Axis armored forces or Soviet? What books should I look for those and what can I look forward to for those units?

E8 Suspension is what makes them better than regular 76mm Shermans. Their ability to move a fair distance and essentially fire as if they were stationary is a lot of use, since their move can be used to render smoke useless; to get a better LoS; to shuffle a little but also shoot... For only a small amount of points more than an A1 76, you get to move almost as far as a Slow Tank--up to half that of a Standard Tank--and fire those 76s at full RoF with no penalty.

Use the 105mm Sherman as against dug-in infantry
The recon is Trained Cavalry Recon Platoon 1 section or the Recon Platoon (7th Armoured) 1 section.
The AOP is for spotting for artillery and for recon, not to shoot
This list can crush large amount of infantry and tanks due to the amount of guns, the double platoon of priest for double duty for anti-infantry and anti-tank, direct fire breakthrough guns, and smoke.
Also this list is Always Attack so only half of your enemy force is on the table.
For german heavy tanks are hard as (a)they take too many points, (b) unless you take a lot of them there are unless, as they get ambush or smoked, that said there are list that are very good but you have to take Jagdtiger and King tiger due to the amount of AT15 the allies get, the infantry is great with half-tracks but expensive, artillery are generally overpriced compared to the Allies list.
Soviet, with the new berlin book out, the soviet now have real vet units, 160mm mortar are great and deadly, you can take massive platoon( they are called companies in soviet), they also have lots of assault guns the ISU and Su series and T-34 units; generally all good units, do not take hens and chicks units because if the platoon leader move the entire platoon counts as moving so reduced rate of fire. Also in general, soviet infantry are a beast with Red banners and/or QoQ

Man, those E8s sound awesome. How much recon do people run with normally in an average size game? I know it's important, and I'm pretty paranoid about taking too little recon. Additionally, are immobile guns completely immobile or can I move them with a halftrack or transport? Because I wouldn't mind getting guns instead of priests. Not that big of a fan of armored arty, I don't see myself moving them unless they absolutely need to be moved. Is ranging only a thing when you indirect fire?

Thanks for the advice bobjoerock, I'll keep this in mind. US sounds like my cup of tea. I'd go German but they take hundreds of points to field even just one platoon of heavy tanks or Panthers, and I'm not a fan of how the soviets work.

Most people use recon two reason. One to prevent ambush. The other, to lift gone to ground with ears and eyes. For most games you can get away with a little amount of recon. Immobile cannot move them on their own so they need transport or half-tracks. You only need to range if you indirect fire. I take priests for 2 reason over artillery. You first became armoured so you cannot be pinned down which saves turn of unpinning. The second reason is that you can role up 16 inch of the enemy and blast them with direct fire which you cannot do with guns. Also you get a M4 OP with is a free throwaway tank, i use to smoke and annoy my opponent's force with them. That said you can also get a platoon of 105mm and a platoon of 155mm( you have to take the 105 before the 155) if it suit you better. Note the list is CT. Also for Germans you can get a jagdtiger for 270 points which is a good deal because you cannot destroy it directly from the front.

I see. I'll probably end up taking a platoon with two patrols of whatever recon I run with. If I go brits I'll get patrols of Uni.Carriers.

Thanks for the all the advice guys. I'll probably start with Comets because I just fell in love with what they could do after seeing them at my LGS. Is it better to group tanks in groups of 3 or 4? I was thinking four, but that gets expensive (esp. with later tanks).

Also is infantry a must for armored lists? It seems like they'd do well holding the objective(s) for you while your tanks take charge of the battlefield. I was thinking taking a platoon of 3x rifle teams.

2 patrols of recon is usually 2 platoons.
It is better to take 4 tanks due to morale reason. A 3 tank or less platoon is a big no-no unless there are heavies.
A platoon of 3x rifle teams is a easy platoon to kill, do you mean 3 section platoon. The reason why most tank company take infantry is to assault dug-in infantry. You smoke them, pin them, then assault them.

Ah yes, sorry. I meant sections. I'm used to thinking of like, 10 people as a single squad. Not five or four man fire teams. I meant three section platoon as you pointed out. Also going to keep the four tank teams. Don't want them folding just because one tank got dinged.

IIRC, Recce doesn't follow the standard rule for command distance right? So I can send one team one way and the other another? It'd be handy for me to be able to move around gun toting Uni.Carriers everywhere. Also gives me a solution to infantry blobs that arty can't handle.

Is that infantry mandatory strategically? How would armor companies defend objectives outside of crushing enemies first?

Recce platoon still follow regular command distance.
A 4 tank platoon can put out 20 dices( each tank have 2 dice for main gun+3 mg dices), hitting on 5+( you cannot be GtG in assault) that an average of 6 hits enough to pin a platoon without QoQ(need 10 hits) to stop an assault. That way I do not have any infantry in my list. I use artillery to kill infantry blobs. When you are attacking, you do not need infantry to hold your objective just have your artillery sit on it,