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I'm an SM fanboy, but have zero interest in 30k - I just don't like the look of them.

I'm so glad that I don't actually want the calth set, I spend enough on this stuff as it is.

I feel the same. I like Marines but I don't understand whats so great about 30k. seems to be lots of talk about it lately. I am not interested. Not sure if its a hipster type thing or just another reason to collect models? IDK but to each there own.

 Warzoner wrote:
Hi people. So recently I came uppon a realization : most players around me seem to like 30k, but I seem to strongly dislike it. Maybe it's the fact that the CSM don't look like a bunch of warped chaos fiend in power armour. Maybe it's because it seems like an all marine vs marine game (I'm a proud defender of Xenos political correctness). Maybe it's the fluff: I've always felt that 30k was more like a space opera/ drama / greek tragedy than a grimdark setting.

What's your opinion on 30k ?

Oh yeah, Marine VS Marine only...
with Knights,
Daemons,
Mechanicum,
Solar Auxilia,
and Titan Legions.
Yeah it's just Marine VS Marine.

kb_lock wrote:
I'm an SM fanboy, but have zero interest in 30k - I just don't like the look of them.

I'm so glad that I don't actually want the calth set, I spend enough on this stuff as it is.

I'm not so keen on mark 2 or 3 armour, either. Marks 4, 5 and 6 look good, though. Sadly, I've got Emperor's Childredn, so by the time I get to mark 6, all my Marines will be mutated weirdos.

Grimlineman wrote:
I feel the same. I like Marines but I don't understand whats so great about 30k. seems to be lots of talk about it lately. I am not interested. Not sure if its a hipster type thing or just another reason to collect models? IDK but to each there own.

It's not a hipster thing, there's just a growing number of people getting into it for a variety of reasons and as there's no seperate 30k section here you've just noticed a higher number of 30k threads pop up.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:

 Warzoner wrote:
Hi people. So recently I came uppon a realization : most players around me seem to like 30k, but I seem to strongly dislike it. Maybe it's the fact that the CSM don't look like a bunch of warped chaos fiend in power armour. Maybe it's because it seems like an all marine vs marine game (I'm a proud defender of Xenos political correctness). Maybe it's the fluff: I've always felt that 30k was more like a space opera/ drama / greek tragedy than a grimdark setting.

What's your opinion on 30k ?

Oh yeah, Marine VS Marine only...
with Knights,
Daemons,
Mechanicum,
Solar Auxilia,
and Titan Legions.
Yeah it's just Marine VS Marine.

There are about three times as much marines as everything else combined.
That's not a healthy pool of choices, even for the human civil war.
There should have been more non marines.

Well, we started 30k in the gaming group and the guys playing it like it much better than 40k.
The game is more balanced and more streamlined. I imagine that playing two shooty armies against each other can be boring. But I play WE. Angron, Red Butchers, and a Spartan tank. My enemy can see it coming. But usually it's too late.

Always loved Horus+his legion and their fluff, love their tactics, love the way they play, very skill dependent army. Plus I get to field what is essentially a god in mortal form. Also the SoH models are unrivaled imo

I don't like it either. Takes away a lot of the mystery of the setting. Also marines everywhere and I really think marines are overrated. No Xenos races either makes me bored. Extremely homogeneous stats is also super boring.

I got into this game for the aliens. In DoW 1 I played orks and marines and knew of nothing else in existence. I wasn't too keen with either though but fun game. Then IG got added and I was mind blown over how cool they were and didn't touch any of the other races. I thought I found my faction for life. Then they added Necrons (old lore) and Tau and I lost my gak at how cool they were. All the shooting of the IG 10x cooler. After I played the Dark Crusade expansion I seriously looked into starting 40k but it would be a very long time before I ever had cash to start a 40k army (only two years ago). Necrons were going to be my first choice but their crappy new lore turned me off. Next I considered DE but heard how hard they were to use and how bad their new dex was so I put them aside and chose Tau.

I do incidentally have a small DE army under way as a side thing. I like their style. Also if I ever do another army it would be Necrons as my third.

I think your problem OP is that your too used to the live fast die hard gameplay of 40k where units vanish in an instant. 30k is a very tactical game with a lot more going on behind the scenes than up front and on table. Armies don't just pack up and go home because they don't have a hope in heck of winning, and in these games making units good in multiple phases isn't just a total waste of time. You can actually build units for cc and not feel like your throwing points down a well hoping you get your wish granted once every ten games and have them actually mean something. You aren't spending points on tanks and dreadnaughts knowing their going to live for only a turn or two before exploding in a horrible fireball without being productive.

And when a new army comes out with rules nobody scream omg so fething broken how am I supposed to beat that and threaten to stop playing that whole army (like I have in 40k where I refuse to play eldar anymore, in fact I'd sooner throw a tournament final than play them). And you have a level playing field because on the whole every marine army has more or less the same unit options, an while there is also adeptus mecha an the solar aux they don't exactly re-invent the wheel in terms of gameplay. At their core their simple to understand that can do all sorts of fun things on the table.

To me a 30k match is a lot more fun than any game of 40k I've played since shield of Baal produced new cities of death rules.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Mind you, perhaps I'm just being old and cranky; my idea of the Heresy was forged by the artwork in 1st edition Space Marine - full of beaky Marines blowing each other up, ambushing each other in tenement blocks and stringing the corpses of their enemies up on ruined buildings, all while angsting over having to kill their old friends.

Ditto.

From a gameplay standpoint the difference isn't necessarily that different (well, other than the basic list plays like orks rather than marines).

But if you're a roleplayer at heart and have any kind emotional investment in your little plastic men, it's a massive difference from 40k:
..we were Space Marines, once united in loyalty to our Emperor. Now because of the treachery of the Warmaster, thrice accursed Horus, we battled. No quarter was asked, no quarter was given. Hatred drove us. Hatred and fear. Aye, fear. For we were the finest warriors in the universe, elite among elites, the chosen of humanity. Once we had acknowledged no foe as our equal. Now we must- for were not these men the same as ourselves? Spawned from geneseed, trained by masters, armed and equipped with the best from humanity's realm. Finally we faced a foe worthy of fear, a mirror image ourselves and all we believed in. Is it any wonder we knew fear?


Hell, I was actually disappointed that FW gave Ultramarines a boost in resisting Fear..

 ionusx wrote:
I think your problem OP is that your too used to the live fast die hard gameplay of 40k where units vanish in an instant. 30k is a very tactical game with a lot more going on behind the scenes than up front and on table. Armies don't just pack up and go home because they don't have a hope in heck of winning, and in these games making units good in multiple phases isn't just a total waste of time. You can actually build units for cc and not feel like your throwing points down a well hoping you get your wish granted once every ten games and have them actually mean something. You aren't spending points on tanks and dreadnaughts knowing their going to live for only a turn or two before exploding in a horrible fireball without being productive.

And when a new army comes out with rules nobody scream omg so fething broken how am I supposed to beat that and threaten to stop playing that whole army (like I have in 40k where I refuse to play eldar anymore, in fact I'd sooner throw a tournament final than play them). And you have a level playing field because on the whole every marine army has more or less the same unit options, an while there is also adeptus mecha an the solar aux they don't exactly re-invent the wheel in terms of gameplay. At their core their simple to understand that can do all sorts of fun things on the table.

To me a 30k match is a lot more fun than any game of 40k I've played since shield of Baal produced new cities of death rules.

have an exalt

haven't played 30K, looked it over some. in a lot of ways it looks really good with better rules and some attempt at game balance. But, with no xeno's I just have no real interest in it. I loathe marines, so wave after wave of red marines vs green marines after black marines completly turns me off. I know theres "other stuff" besides marines in it, but its still a marine centric setting which is the thing I have always hated about 40k amped up.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:


Oh yeah, Marine VS Marine only...

18 different Space Marine Legions.

with Knights,

Everyone loves when their opponent brings a knight household as their "army."

Daemons,

Is there a 30K daemon army list, or is it simply marines with daemon allies?

Mechanicum,

Your first legit standalone army. So, 18 marine legions + 1 non-marine.

Solar Auxilia,

Your second legit standalone army. So, 18 marine legions + 2 non-marine.

and Titan Legions.

I sense you're getting desperate in making your point.

Yeah it's just Marine VS Marine.

You have certainly proven our hypothesis incorrect: it's 18 Marine vs. 2 Non-Marine. Hooray for diversity!

 BoomWolf wrote:
There are about three times as much marines as everything else combined.
That's not a healthy pool of choices, even for the human civil war.
There should have been more non marines.

 the_Armyman wrote:

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:


Oh yeah, Marine VS Marine only...

18 different Space Marine Legions.

with Knights,

Everyone loves when their opponent brings a knight household as their "army."

Daemons,

Is there a 30K daemon army list, or is it simply marines with daemon allies?

Mechanicum,

Your first legit standalone army. So, 18 marine legions + 1 non-marine.

Solar Auxilia,

Your second legit standalone army. So, 18 marine legions + 2 non-marine.

and Titan Legions.

I sense you're getting desperate in making your point.

Yeah it's just Marine VS Marine.

You have certainly proven our hypothesis incorrect: it's 18 Marine vs. 2 Non-Marine. Hooray for diversity!

The two of you realize that the OP's assertion, which Rowboat was addressing, is that the game is "all Marines all the time", yes? So with that being the OP's assertion, pointing out an inequality in the Xenos-Marine ratio literally does not contradict or even address Rowboat's argument at all. "Diversity" exists in the game- whether it's enough diversity or not is an entirely separately matter, but the fact remains that to say "there's only Marine factions in 40K!" is an objectively false statement.

Please don't make strawmans, it brings down the quality of the entire board.

Redacted.

Then there's also the Imperial Cults/Militia list that allows for many different playstyles (will you be facing surviours of the Dark Age that are gene-crafted? Maybe it's a horde of mutated chaos zealots? It could even be a horde or drugged-up feral warriors or some other combination!).
And as you noted, 18 different legions. Sure, while they each are made up of the same basic choices they all play differently and each have unique units. Sure, the difference might not be as stark as the difference between an Eldar or an Ork army, but it's certainly more than the difference between 40k Salamanders and Imperial Fists.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The two of you realize that the OP's assertion, which Rowboat was addressing, is that the game is "all Marines all the time", yes? So with that being the OP's assertion, pointing out an inequality in the Xenos-Marine ratio literally does not contradict or even address Rowboat's argument at all. "Diversity" exists in the game- whether it's enough diversity or not is an entirely separately matter, but the fact remains that to say "there's only Marine factions in 40K!" is an objectively false statement.

Please don't make strawmans, it brings down the quality of the entire board.

So, just to be clear: you're pedantically correcting the assertion that it's not "100% marines" in 30K, it's technically "90% marines". To reiterate, I have adjusted my assertions accordingly. Thank you for the correction

If you're going to treat the different legions as different armies then you should also treat the different Mechanicum lists (Taghmata, Cybernetica and Reductor) as different armies. Then there's Imperial Cults/Militia that can almost be as diverse as the Legions them selves, but for simplicity's sake we'll separate them as Imperial and Traitor/Chaos (since the Chaos Cults get access to different units in the form of Spawn and Sorcerers).

That's 75% Marines (which admittedly is still way larger than 40K's 26%), even with ignoring Knights and Daemons and the other different Militia/Cult combinations.

Edited because I can't Maths... even though I do a fething Maths degree....

But do you ever see those armies? No. I always see space marines vs space marines in 30k games. If I see it played at all. It's not big here.

I think it's cool, but I don't have any intent to get into it as of now. I just got back into the hobby and started my Tau army, so not having the ability to play those models in 30k is unappealing in that it would simply require another massive financial and time investment. So really that's what it comes down for why I don't like it as a hobby for me, it doesn't have the army I like the most, and just isn't something I have time for.

That being said, there are a lot of cool things in it, and I hear the balance in it is pretty solid. Not going to lie, I've been tempted to get some of the armies as a side project D:

 Gamgee wrote:
But do you ever see those armies? No. I always see space marines vs space marines in 30k games. If I see it played at all. It's not big here.

It depends on your area's meta. Personally in my area's 40k meta I see SMs as often as I do in its 30k meta. (ie. like 80% of the time, even though Space Marine flavours only make up like 26% of the entire army range)

Honeslty, of all the other armies in 40k I only ever see Tau, Eldar and Space Marine flavours, that's it. Doesn't mean that DE, Orks, IG, SoB, Inq, MT, Ad Mech, Necrons, etc. can be discounted from 40k because of it, though.

If the argument is that you think 30k is lame because "too many marines", then you dont really have much of an argument at all IMO, its in fact the games chief selling point. If you cant understand why the inclusion of too many xenos/nonmarine factions would be damaging to balance and gameplay (like it has been for 40k) then I question your ability to critically analyze the game at all.

Also the comment about homogenous stats being boring is mystifying to me, I cant say I ever encountered someone who was excited by the fact that a unit had a different statline from another, particularly given how just about everything in 40k more or less boils down to 1 of 3 basic statlines (marine, human, or eldar) with a single modifier to change it to something else (i.e. human statline +1T is ork, +1S is kroot, -1I is Tau, etc.)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
[spoiler]-snip-

Then there's also the Imperial Cults/Militia list that allows for many different playstyles (will you be facing surviours of the Dark Age that are gene-crafted? Maybe it's a horde of mutated chaos zealots? It could even be a horde or drugged-up feral warriors or some other combination!).
And as you noted, 18 different legions. Sure, while they each are made up of the same basic choices they all play differently and each have unique units. Sure, the difference might not be as stark as the difference between an Eldar or an Ork army, but it's certainly more than the difference between 40k Salamanders and Imperial Fists.

Don't know about you, but I don't even count 40k salamanders and IF as separate armies and more than I count MoN and MoS marines as different armies. (in fact, they are even less separate, at least the marks have a unique unit each)

I DO count the DA, the SW and the BA as separate from codex marines though.

chaos0xomega wrote:
If the argument is that you think 30k is lame because "too many marines", then you dont really have much of an argument at all IMO, its in fact the games chief selling point. If you cant understand why the inclusion of too many xenos/nonmarine factions would be damaging to balance and gameplay (like it has been for 40k) then I question your ability to critically analyze the game at all.

Also the comment about homogenous stats being boring is mystifying to me, I cant say I ever encountered someone who was excited by the fact that a unit had a different statline from another, particularly given how just about everything in 40k more or less boils down to 1 of 3 basic statlines (marine, human, or eldar) with a single modifier to change it to something else (i.e. human statline +1T is ork, +1S is kroot, -1I is Tau, etc.)

That minor difference in stats, is pushing the armies apart, even a bit.
That army strike first in CC, the other has a better chance to survive a shot, the third hits harder. even before going to wargear, these tiny differences matter in the big picture.
And than you get the far greater diversity in unit types, armored units, weapon selection, etc piles on top of it.

In 30k, as its all (practically) marines, it boils down to weapon selection from a minor list of marine choices. everyone has the same goals, the same battle plan, and the same methods of operation in the end of the day. because they are all good at about the same things. sure, one is a bit more CC oriented, the other a bit more sneaky-but in the end? everyone does the same thing.

@the_armyman - If my thallax were able to feel emotions they would be offended by your ignorance of them and their stats! Summing up the mechanicum to one being 'one list' is contrite twaddle; my taghmata can drown your army in blobs of tech-thralls which respawn on a 5+ when destroyed, i can spam monstorus creatures as scoring troops using legio cybernetica and i can field an army of tanks which score in your DZ and become obsec in malestrom missions as the Ordo Reductor
You obviously haven't played 30k - i've got all the books and the diversity is boggling!

the similarity of stats between marines just makes you realize how potent the USR's really are - not much gets 'fearless' so the 'stubborn' rule becomes invaluable.

Marines play very differently since there is no 'and they shall know no fear' rule - they may take 25% casualties in a phase and just run off!
And If you best them in combat you can sweeping advance them!
Legion marines are nothing like 'chapter' marines and the change in flavour between them is enough to completely change the strategy you use - my mate plays emperors children and his guys move an extra d3 when assaulting and can always regroup regardless of casualties. The effect of that is his guys get to combat at much greater range than other marines and his 2 man remnants of a squad can still lock a much larger squad in combat. That changes how you play!

I'm not willing to dedicate the time nessecary to show you the extent of the differences between each list, but i'm sure that you'd regard 'dark eldar', 'kraftworld eldar' and 'eldar corsairs' as 'seperate armies' - the difference between legion factions is very much like that.

I had a thought - maybe you're just not cut out for 30k?
If you aren't 'getting' the differences then maybe 40k is all you need.

Mechanicum is my creed and the Ordo Reductor is my faction - The bringers of Blessed Ruin.

Sadly 30k is pretty lame, it is a step down from 40k . People complain that their men are better then mine... Well not now cause your all the same and to make it not look like we just added 12new space marine codexes like in 40k we will make the differences even smaller. This guy can pee left and this one right.......... mind blown.

You want perfect balance play chess, you want randomness best we can simulate complain cause it not your guys buffed lol then we get this train wreck and the contemptor with its huge leg join to shoot and then watch as its usles arms sworl in circles... 30k years later and they still cant build something that can stand up with out help.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Sadly 30k is pretty lame, it is a step down from 40k . People complain that their men are better then mine... Well not now cause your all the same and to make it not look like we just added 12new space marine codexes like in 40k we will make the differences even smaller. This guy can pee left and this one right.......... mind blown.

You want perfect balance play chess, you want randomness best we can simulate complain cause it not your guys buffed lol then we get this train wreck and the contemptor with its huge leg join to shoot and then watch as its usles arms sworl in circles... 30k years later and they still cant build something that can stand up with out help.

It's a step down in what, exactly? Your post is pretty hard to understand. It's worse because the Contemptor has a leg that's easy to shoot..?

If you aren't interested in marines it makes plenty of sense that you wouldn't be interested in HH, since you know, the whole story is the marines turning on each other.

For the record I've seen plenty of mechanicum being played, still haven't seen an SA army yet though.

chaos0xomega wrote:
FW has said they have no intention of desire of ever doing xenos in 30k because it would defeat the theme of the game, etc. They also said if you do want to play xenos you can can use your 40k army, though they neither recommend nor endose you doing so as they arent balanced against one another.

And I heard the opposite. In the beginning it was seen as a separate expansion, but now it works. And unless you play it or try it regularly, you won't agree. Anything sub 2,500 points 40k factions will normally trump a 30k one.

As one who doesn't play Marines, I basically am out of 30K. I know some people who are REALLY into the histoyr of the Chapters and so for them its probably hog heaven. I think this comes down to whether or not you've read a loto f the books and such. If you have't, 30K is just another game of 40K more or less, and from that viewpoint, boring. But if you're into the history? Its probably going to make the fanboi in you flip out.