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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He can't just "easily" summon them. He requires even more Warp Charges, which adds onto his cost when you need to buy more units to contribute.

Wraithknight wins. The Wraithknight is the most disgusting thing to happen in game balance ever.

I agree that for points the Wraithknight is better.
But it is Easily.
Fateweaver alone gets 4 Warp Charge base, plus D6. With only 3, he can summon a unit of Horrors. Which add one Warp Charge to make the next unit of Horrors easier. Which do the same...same...same...

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He can't just "easily" summon them. He requires even more Warp Charges, which adds onto his cost when you need to buy more units to contribute.

Wraithknight wins. The Wraithknight is the most disgusting thing to happen in game balance ever.

I agree that for points the Wraithknight is better.
But it is Easily.
Fateweaver alone gets 4 Warp Charge base, plus D6. With only 3, he can summon a unit of Horrors. Which add one Warp Charge to make the next unit of Horrors easier. Which do the same...same...same...

In which case you are no longer dealing with *a* unit. If Fateweaver needs to rely on others then he cannot meet what OP asked for, as he specified *unit*. If Fateweaver gets to have friends to help, so does the Wraithknight, in which case Seer Council led by Eldrad throwing Guide, Fortune, and Invisibility on the Wraithknight and restoring a Wound every turn.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He can't just "easily" summon them. He requires even more Warp Charges, which adds onto his cost when you need to buy more units to contribute.

Wraithknight wins. The Wraithknight is the most disgusting thing to happen in game balance ever.

I agree that for points the Wraithknight is better.
But it is Easily.
Fateweaver alone gets 4 Warp Charge base, plus D6. With only 3, he can summon a unit of Horrors. Which add one Warp Charge to make the next unit of Horrors easier. Which do the same...same...same...

You need 5 psychic dice to have a 50% chance at summoning a new unit. I typically use 7-8.
If the only thing that fateweaver is doing is summoning in more units of horrors, you're losing.

Fateweaver is really good, don't get me wrong. Theres a reason that 90% of competitive daemons lists use Fateweaver. His psychic powers do a lot of work. But he's mainly viable for using his re-roll abilities to overcome negatives in the Daemon codex - if you don't need to worry about re-rolling Warp Storm or Grimoire then a kitted out Lord of Change is 305 points and is better in many situations.
At only T5 and with pitiful combat stats, he always wants to be flying and never wants to see combat. Plus he doesn't really *do* anything on his own: he's good at buffing your other squads, but he needs 2 units of horrors to back him up with extra dice to do that, and he needs targets for his buffs. At 300pts he's pretty appropriately costed.

A wraithknight OTOH is fast enough to engage pretty much anything it wants on its terms. It is ridiculously durable with 3+ FNP and possibly 5++, immunity to 90% of small arms fire and 90% of units in combat, and between stomps and either D-cannons or D-sword can take on any unit in the game. It is completely self sufficient and only gets better once you start adding in other units. Its one real fear is grav centurions.Its probably 100pts undercosted.



I think the premise of the entire question is a bit flawed though. No army consists of single units operating independently. Once you start factoring in allies you get 'units' on the table like superfriends / thunderdome, which stack on so many special rules that their points efficiency goes through the roof. Or you get the entire Tau army which is pretty tame when considering individual units, but when you start factoring in the free +1 or +2 ballistic skill they can get just by firing at the same target, and oodles of markerlights handing out BS and Ignores cover...

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
What damage!?
Last time I checked 2 S8 AP1/2 beams +some extra was quite a lot per turn

Meh. Tyranids can do more of those beams with each squad of Zoanthropes. If Warp Blast shenanigans are as deadly as Fateweaver, he's not very deadly.

Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol common now



Edited by RiTides (language)

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

Sorry, anyone who says a wraith knight is a waste of points loses all credibility lol

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol

That's usually a pretty stark clue...

its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

You aren't actually making any argument here, you're just saying words. You're not backing up a single statement there.

If you have an argument, make it, but just saying "haters LOL" isn't going to exactly convince anyone of your position.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol

That's usually a pretty stark clue...

its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

You aren't actually making any argument here, you're just saying words. You're not backing up a single statement there.

If you have an argument, make it, but just saying "haters LOL" isn't going to exactly convince anyone of your position.

centurions beat wraithknights into the floor, lychgaurd will tie it up forever, a squad of thunderhammer thunder cav will mess it up. but please tell me how its amazing, and breaks them game. or even better my hemlock will kill it and the wriathknight cant do anything about it lol

Dman137 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol

That's usually a pretty stark clue...

its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

You aren't actually making any argument here, you're just saying words. You're not backing up a single statement there.

If you have an argument, make it, but just saying "haters LOL" isn't going to exactly convince anyone of your position.

centurions beat wraithknights into the floor, lychgaurd will tie it up forever, a squad of thunderhammer thunder cav will mess it up. but please tell me how its amazing, and breaks them game. or even better my hemlock will kill it and the wriathknight cant do anything about it lol

wow... just wow lol..

Wraith knight will stomp the crap out of lychguard/Thunder cav
And just because you give one specific example of how grav cent (lol great example, giving another very OP unit) does nothing.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol

That's usually a pretty stark clue...

its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

You aren't actually making any argument here, you're just saying words. You're not backing up a single statement there.

If you have an argument, make it, but just saying "haters LOL" isn't going to exactly convince anyone of your position.

centurions beat wraithknights into the floor, lychgaurd will tie it up forever, a squad of thunderhammer thunder cav will mess it up. but please tell me how its amazing, and breaks them game. or even better my hemlock will kill it and the wriathknight cant do anything about it lol

wow... just wow lol..

Wraith knight will stomp the crap out of lychguard/Thunder cav
And just because you give one specific example of how grav cent (lol great example, giving another very OP unit) does nothing.

yeah because rooling a 6 on the stomp table is good odds lol

Fateweaver isn't close to a wraithknight, certainly not in a head to head and certainly not vs the average things on the table

In a head to head he'll be wrecked if he's not flying, and if he is flying whats he gonna do... throw a few powers a turn that'll take an eternity to kill him and ONE good shot from the knight will kill him

in a normal game he still doesn't have the same capability either

Dman137 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol

That's usually a pretty stark clue...

its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

You aren't actually making any argument here, you're just saying words. You're not backing up a single statement there.

If you have an argument, make it, but just saying "haters LOL" isn't going to exactly convince anyone of your position.

centurions beat wraithknights into the floor, lychgaurd will tie it up forever, a squad of thunderhammer thunder cav will mess it up. but please tell me how its amazing, and breaks them game. or even better my hemlock will kill it and the wriathknight cant do anything about it lol

Not every army has these things, and even amongst those that do, not all of them include them. Likewise, such assets may have multiple high priority targets and may have to pick & choose what to fight.

Yeah, a TWC deathstar will mess up a Wraithknight, but they'll usually cost 2x or more what the WK does and have to catch it while taking fire on the way it (and the WK moves just as fast). Lychguard can tie it up...but that's probably it, and they have to catch it. DS-ing *grav* Centurions yeah will probably kill it quite quickly, but most people think those are also pretty broken, though if taken with any other weapons combination will probably not be spectacularly effective.

For less than 300pts, it's very difficult to come up with a better investment that will be as capable against the same wide array of targets, with the same threat radius & ability to inflict great harm in both shooting & assault, with the same mobility, and same resiliency, as the Wraithknight.

Can someone make a list of all the sub-300 pt ways that armies can counter Wraithknights with? Not the "50/50" odds type either but weapons with the "It Will Absolutely Die" special rule.

Nurgle Daemon Prince, Wings, Mastery Level 3, 2x Greater rewards, 3x rolls on biomancy. He clocks in at 315pts. If he gets either either Fleshbane or Iron Arm he'll mince the wraithknight in one turn of combat. Eg in a tournament the other day - I have 9 attacks at initiative 11, hitting on 3's with re-rolls, 2's with re-rolls to wound, AP2 instant death. 15 wounds on average. Fun times. Only problem is making sure you get those abilities in the first place, and getting to combat.

20 Seekers of Slaanesh with Rapturous standard come in at 270pts and do 6 wounds to a D-Cannon wraithknight on average. Bump it up to 360 pts and you can add a Herald with re-roll to hit locus, and they now do 8 wounds on average. They're fast enough to catch the Wraithknight turn 2. The problem is that the army with the Wraithknight is also going to contain scatterbikes which are likely to turn the Seekers into fine pink mist.


He needs to take 18 Melta hits / 36 plasma hits / 72 S5/6 AP2/3 HITS to have an average chance of going down. Firewarrior breacher team spam? lol.
Grav centurions are in the very unique (some would say 'broken') position that their weapons get more effective as their target's toughness increases. Everyone else has to throw a LOT of attacks to get past that toughness 8.

Grav Centurions in a pod do just shy of 6 wounds on a WK out of cover and clock in at 275 points. Grav Devastators in a Skyhammer do just shy of 8 wounds, assuming no Combi-Grav, and clock in at 245 (pod included), but require other units to be taken as part of the formation. Outside those two the only other sub-300 point unit I can think of in Codex: Space Marines that can actually kill a Wraithknight in one round outside of melee is a Librarian throwing Vortex of Doom at it, and good luck with that...

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why ask a question if you aren't going to listen to what people say? And does flying help protect Fateweaver from D weapons?

Name one non-template D-weapon that's not on a Tiger Shark A-X-10, which is disqualified from this competition by virtue of being Forge World.

I was genuinely asking, I'm not overly familiar with the rules for flyers.

Ah, right. Fliers can only be hit by things that roll a D6 and compare ballistic skill, and unless you have Skyfire, you're always BS1.

1 hemlock can do 6 wounds to a WK in one turn and that's just 185pts lol 5 man wraithgaurd unit with a WWP will kill it in one turn. Lol this game revolves around tactics and building your army list is one of the biggest tactics, if your scared that a WK will beat you then make a list to deal with it or find a way to play around it it's not hard, instead of sitting there and crying wolf every time something comes out. The game has evolved and so should everyone else. Every codex is going to get cranked to 11, and if people can't get used to it the. Either play with your fiends and make up rules (boring) or you test yourself and become a better player

Wraithknight wins, Imperial knight wins. Fateweaver ain't exactly good. Anything with a good rate of fire makes him pop like a balloon. Wraithknight mostly wins most annoying due to it's cost and gargantuan rule and because GW has a thing for the D.

Wraithknight without a doubt.

 Arkaine wrote:
Can someone make a list of all the sub-300 pt ways that armies can counter Wraithknights with? Not the "50/50" odds type either but weapons with the "It Will Absolutely Die" special rule.

No, but I can make a list of all the shooting in my army that can kill it:
- 243 Poison Shots, requiring ~21 Venoms (1365pts)
- 27 Darklight Shots, requiring 9 Ravagers (1125pts)
- 17 Osseffactor Shots, requiring 17 Wrack squads (1105pts)

And, that's assuming that the WK has no cover whatsoever, that you get to shoot first, and that everything is in range. There's also basically no margin for error.

Let's do the maths to see how many CSM with Krak grenades it will take to kill it.

324 CSM should suffice if my maths hold. That's 4212 points. Efficiency!

Point for Point it would have to be the Wraith Knight. For what it cost to field one for what it does, I don't see much that will rival it.

Just so I can join in, what are the defensive parameters on a wraithknight?

Dman137 wrote:
1 hemlock can do 6 wounds to a WK in one turn and that's just 185pts lol 5 man wraithgaurd unit with a WWP will kill it in one turn. Lol this game revolves around tactics and building your army list is one of the biggest tactics, if your scared that a WK will beat you then make a list to deal with it or find a way to play around it it's not hard, instead of sitting there and crying wolf every time something comes out. The game has evolved and so should everyone else. Every codex is going to get cranked to 11, and if people can't get used to it the. Either play with your fiends and make up rules (boring) or you test yourself and become a better player

So again, you are giving examples from what most people consider the most broken codex. Anyone can find a specific unit to kill any other unit. Thats not the point. The point is comparing a unit, the wraith knight, to other units in an army for its points cost.

Wraithknight.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
1 hemlock can do 6 wounds to a WK in one turn and that's just 185pts lol 5 man wraithgaurd unit with a WWP will kill it in one turn. Lol this game revolves around tactics and building your army list is one of the biggest tactics, if your scared that a WK will beat you then make a list to deal with it or find a way to play around it it's not hard, instead of sitting there and crying wolf every time something comes out. The game has evolved and so should everyone else. Every codex is going to get cranked to 11, and if people can't get used to it the. Either play with your fiends and make up rules (boring) or you test yourself and become a better player

So again, you are giving examples from what most people consider the most broken codex. Anyone can find a specific unit to kill any other unit. Thats not the point. The point is comparing a unit, the wraith knight, to other units in an army for its points cost.

you think eldar is more broken then tau... Bahahaha now I know your joking

You need 5 psychic dice to have a 50% chance at summoning a new unit. I typically use 7-8.
If the only thing that fateweaver is doing is summoning in more units of horrors, you're losing.

Fateweaver is really good, don't get me wrong. Theres a reason that 90% of competitive daemons lists use Fateweaver. His psychic powers do a lot of work. But he's mainly viable for using his re-roll abilities to overcome negatives in the Daemon codex - if you don't need to worry about re-rolling Warp Storm or Grimoire then a kitted out Lord of Change is 305 points and is better in many situations.
At only T5 and with pitiful combat stats, he always wants to be flying and never wants to see combat. Plus he doesn't really *do* anything on his own: he's good at buffing your other squads, but he needs 2 units of horrors to back him up with extra dice to do that, and he needs targets for his buffs. At 300pts he's pretty appropriately costed.

A wraithknight OTOH is fast enough to engage pretty much anything it wants on its terms. It is ridiculously durable with 3+ FNP and possibly 5++, immunity to 90% of small arms fire and 90% of units in combat, and between stomps and either D-cannons or D-sword can take on any unit in the game. It is completely self sufficient and only gets better once you start adding in other units. Its one real fear is grav centurions.Its probably 100pts undercosted.



I think the premise of the entire question is a bit flawed though. No army consists of single units operating independently. Once you start factoring in allies you get 'units' on the table like superfriends / thunderdome, which stack on so many special rules that their points efficiency goes through the roof. Or you get the entire Tau army which is pretty tame when considering individual units, but when you start factoring in the free +1 or +2 ballistic skill they can get just by firing at the same target, and oodles of markerlights handing out BS and Ignores cover...

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
1 hemlock can do 6 wounds to a WK in one turn and that's just 185pts lol 5 man wraithgaurd unit with a WWP will kill it in one turn. Lol this game revolves around tactics and building your army list is one of the biggest tactics, if your scared that a WK will beat you then make a list to deal with it or find a way to play around it it's not hard, instead of sitting there and crying wolf every time something comes out. The game has evolved and so should everyone else. Every codex is going to get cranked to 11, and if people can't get used to it the. Either play with your fiends and make up rules (boring) or you test yourself and become a better player

So again, you are giving examples from what most people consider the most broken codex. Anyone can find a specific unit to kill any other unit. Thats not the point. The point is comparing a unit, the wraith knight, to other units in an army for its points cost.

you think eldar is more broken then tau... Bahahaha now I know your joking

It's been more broken than Tau for years. Notice how when Tau dominated the tournament scenes it was by taking Eldar allies. But by all means, continue to give examples from Eldar on how to counter Eldar's best unit.

I asked a simple question above. Tell me what under 300 pt units can kill a Wraithknight, what is point effective next to its cost. We've had less than a handful of those, most of them just over the point cost and many others that triple it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just so I can join in, what are the defensive parameters on a wraithknight?

T8 W6, 3+ armour, can go for the melee loadout (free) to get a 5++. GMC with all that comes (takes d3 extra wounds instead of being IDed, FNP, poison and sniper wounds on 6+, etc.)

I think it can also put its toe in area terrain to get a cover save, but I am not up to date on the cover rules.