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Your backing cited literally no rules, and got specific vs general the wrong way round.

(A specific permission overrides a general restriction. Or specific restriction overrides the general permission. MT is very general (any weapon) and thus is less dodgy fix )

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your backing cited literally no rules, and got specific vs general the wrong way round.

(A specific permission overrides a general restriction. Or specific restriction overrides the general permission. MT is very general (any weapon) and thus is less dodgy fix )

it would be true if both came from the same source(codex or BRB), but its not, and we all know codex > BRB, sounds like a lot of hot air coming from you, so we'll just have to agree and disagree on this, so this topic doesn't become he said she said..

 Big Mac wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your backing cited literally no rules, and got specific vs general the wrong way round.

(A specific permission overrides a general restriction. Or specific restriction overrides the general permission. MT is very general (any weapon) and thus is less dodgy fix )

it would be true if both came from the same source(codex or BRB), but its not, and we all know codex > BRB, sounds like a lot of hot air coming from you, so we'll just have to agree and disagree on this, so this topic doesn't become he said she said..

This is the rule that MT overrides.

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more.

No mention of Ordnance in there, hence MT has no effect.

Fragile wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your backing cited literally no rules, and got specific vs general the wrong way round.

(A specific permission overrides a general restriction. Or specific restriction overrides the general permission. MT is very general (any weapon) and thus is less dodgy fix )

it would be true if both came from the same source(codex or BRB), but its not, and we all know codex > BRB, sounds like a lot of hot air coming from you, so we'll just have to agree and disagree on this, so this topic doesn't become he said she said..

This is the rule that MT overrides.

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more.

No mention of Ordnance in there, hence MT has no effect.

DO you have the tau codex? on pg 69 of the older(but still legal along with the kauyon book)tau codex, MT: a model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each shooting phase.

EDIT: the MT rule probably meant for overriding ordinance specific restrictions, the riptide being a MC it can already fire 2 weapons without the MT.

 Big Mac wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, it's been a problem since rt were around. Ordnance in 6th was the same...

Oh and reported.

ThEre is no conflict, as the rulebook is more specific and so wins it. MT must state it overrides restrictions such as ordnance otherwise t doesn't get to do so.

Proof? Links? I've backed up my argument by saying MT is from the codex and its general 'can' trumps ordinances specific 'cannot' in the BRB; where is your backing?

The easiest way to understand it is in terms of modifiers. A Multitracker is effectively a +1 to number of additional weapons that can be fired while Ordnance flat out sets the number of additional weapons that can be fired to 0. There isn't a conflict here, so basic vs. advanced doesn't come into play.

EDIT: the MT rule probably meant for overriding ordinance specific restrictions, the riptide being a MC it can already fire 2 weapons without the MT.

Except the MT is not a riptide exclusive system. Works on Crisis suits, broadsides, and commanders, which don't have any ordinance weapons. It is meant for all of them to fire more then one weapon.

Unless the RT has two ordnance weapons it can only ever fire the one once.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, it's been a problem since rt were around. Ordnance in 6th was the same...

Oh and reported.

ThEre is no conflict, as the rulebook is more specific and so wins it. MT must state it overrides restrictions such as ordnance otherwise t doesn't get to do so.

Proof? Links? I've backed up my argument by saying MT is from the codex and its general 'can' trumps ordinances specific 'cannot' in the BRB; where is your backing?

The easiest way to understand it is in terms of modifiers. A Multitracker is effectively a +1 to number of additional weapons that can be fired while Ordnance flat out sets the number of additional weapons that can be fired to 0. There isn't a conflict here, so basic vs. advanced doesn't come into play.

Except that is not what the rules of MT states, what you're saying is a assumption. As for MT is not a riptide exclusive item: that is not of the OP, the MT has effects for crisis/commander, all suit that I'm aware of cept the stormsurge, which is a GC, who doesn't need one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Unless the RT has two ordnance weapons it can only ever fire the one once.

The debate here is about the riptide nova charge and fire the ordinance profile shot, and CAN/CANNOT fire its 2ndary weapon; there is another post about Ordinance and Riptide wing formation rule that allows it to fire double shots in 1 round for the game.

 Big Mac wrote:


DO you have the tau codex?

Obviously, since I cited the rule to you above.

on pg 69 of the older(but still legal along with the kauyon book)tau codex, MT: a model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each shooting phase.

EDIT: the MT rule probably meant for overriding ordinance specific restrictions, the riptide being a MC it can already fire 2 weapons without the MT.

The MT is clear in what it does. It allows you to override the 1 basic rule. Nothing about the more specific Ordnance rule. As far as Riptides go, its pointless, but MTs allow Crisis suits to do alot.

 Big Mac wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your backing cited literally no rules, and got specific vs general the wrong way round.

(A specific permission overrides a general restriction. Or specific restriction overrides the general permission. MT is very general (any weapon) and thus is less dodgy fix )

it would be true if both came from the same source(codex or BRB), but its not, and we all know codex > BRB, sounds like a lot of hot air coming from you, so we'll just have to agree and disagree on this, so this topic doesn't become he said she said..

That's not actually how it works.
Read this post for an explanation:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/520554.page#5505107

1) Rules are ultimately permissive. If the rules don't give you permission to do something, you can't do it.
2) Restrictions always override permissions, where the two conflict.
3) Specific overrides general, although remembering that restrictions still override permissions.

Trasvi wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your backing cited literally no rules, and got specific vs general the wrong way round.

(A specific permission overrides a general restriction. Or specific restriction overrides the general permission. MT is very general (any weapon) and thus is less dodgy fix )

it would be true if both came from the same source(codex or BRB), but its not, and we all know codex > BRB, sounds like a lot of hot air coming from you, so we'll just have to agree and disagree on this, so this topic doesn't become he said she said..

That's not actually how it works.
Read this post for an explanation:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/520554.page#5505107

1) Rules are ultimately permissive. If the rules don't give you permission to do something, you can't do it.
2) Restrictions always override permissions, where the two conflict.
3) Specific overrides general, although remembering that restrictions still override permissions.

I recall a 20+ page debate on GMC can fire EACH of their weapon, 1 side saying that the restriction of weapon able to fire is 2 due to GMC is a MC with additional rules; how's your #2 and #3 statement work out in that debate? It is a concensus that GMC can fire ALL of their weapon at any target available.

 Big Mac wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your backing cited literally no rules, and got specific vs general the wrong way round.

(A specific permission overrides a general restriction. Or specific restriction overrides the general permission. MT is very general (any weapon) and thus is less dodgy fix )

it would be true if both came from the same source(codex or BRB), but its not, and we all know codex > BRB, sounds like a lot of hot air coming from you, so we'll just have to agree and disagree on this, so this topic doesn't become he said she said..

That's not actually how it works.
Read this post for an explanation:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/520554.page#5505107

1) Rules are ultimately permissive. If the rules don't give you permission to do something, you can't do it.
2) Restrictions always override permissions, where the two conflict.
3) Specific overrides general, although remembering that restrictions still override permissions.

I recall a 20+ page debate on GMC can fire EACH of their weapon, 1 side saying that the restriction of weapon able to fire is 2 due to GMC is a MC with additional rules; how's your #2 and #3 statement work out in that debate? It is a concensus that GMC can fire ALL of their weapon at any target available.

#2 & #3 MUST be true or the rules fall apart because you can apply rules in any order you want to achieve some desired outcome. Read the article.


The consensus is wrong. Or at least, the way that people play (whether by natural interpretation or explicit preference) is different to the rules as written IMO, because of clumsily written rules.
That particular debate is about the interpretation of whether 'each of its weapons' implies a specific permission to override the general 'only 2 weapons' rule. I come down on the side that (however much I would like it to) specific permissions cannot be implied (on account of them needing to be specific), and therefore it doesn't give permission to fire more than 2 weapons.


For the riptide MT vs Ordnance debate: Ultimately, the MT on the riptide is completely redundant anyway as the Riptide as a MC has exactly the same rules obtained from simply being a monstrous creature. As to whether the MT or MC rules give it permission to fire another weapon as well as the ordnance? No - it overrides the general restriction on only firing one weapon, but the Ordnance rules are more specific and thus more restrictive.

Can the Riptide fire the ordnance shot as one shooting attack and then other weapons in its second? RAW No, as the Ordnance restriction applies per phase. I doubt that is truly the intent (as the rules really don't actually define a 'shooting attack' well or cope with the idea that you'd make more than your 1 per shooting phase) but thats the way it goes.
As to whether the Riptide can fire its ordnance shot twice... I'd say yes, but its definitely debatable. The rule prevents you from firing other weapons; but the ordnance weapon again is (debatably) the same weapon. Again, no general rules for determining how to use the same weapon multiple times per shooting phase so its hard to know.

Even more questionably: Can you fire the Ordnance profile of the IA and then as your second attack use the non-ordnance profile?

Trasvi wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your backing cited literally no rules, and got specific vs general the wrong way round.

(A specific permission overrides a general restriction. Or specific restriction overrides the general permission. MT is very general (any weapon) and thus is less dodgy fix )

it would be true if both came from the same source(codex or BRB), but its not, and we all know codex > BRB, sounds like a lot of hot air coming from you, so we'll just have to agree and disagree on this, so this topic doesn't become he said she said..

That's not actually how it works.
Read this post for an explanation:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/520554.page#5505107

1) Rules are ultimately permissive. If the rules don't give you permission to do something, you can't do it.
2) Restrictions always override permissions, where the two conflict.
3) Specific overrides general, although remembering that restrictions still override permissions.

I recall a 20+ page debate on GMC can fire EACH of their weapon, 1 side saying that the restriction of weapon able to fire is 2 due to GMC is a MC with additional rules; how's your #2 and #3 statement work out in that debate? It is a concensus that GMC can fire ALL of their weapon at any target available.

#2 & #3 MUST be true or the rules fall apart because you can apply rules in any order you want to achieve some desired outcome. Read the article.


The consensus is wrong. Or at least, the way that people play (whether by natural interpretation or explicit preference) is different to the rules as written IMO, because of clumsily written rules.
That particular debate is about the interpretation of whether 'each of its weapons' implies a specific permission to override the general 'only 2 weapons' rule. I come down on the side that (however much I would like it to) specific permissions cannot be implied (on account of them needing to be specific), and therefore it doesn't give permission to fire more than 2 weapons.


For the riptide MT vs Ordnance debate: Ultimately, the MT on the riptide is completely redundant anyway as the Riptide as a MC has exactly the same rules obtained from simply being a monstrous creature. As to whether the MT or MC rules give it permission to fire another weapon as well as the ordnance? No - it overrides the general restriction on only firing one weapon, but the Ordnance rules are more specific and thus more restrictive.

Can the Riptide fire the ordnance shot as one shooting attack and then other weapons in its second? RAW No, as the Ordnance restriction applies per phase. I doubt that is truly the intent (as the rules really don't actually define a 'shooting attack' well or cope with the idea that you'd make more than your 1 per shooting phase) but thats the way it goes.
As to whether the Riptide can fire its ordnance shot twice... I'd say yes, but its definitely debatable. The rule prevents you from firing other weapons; but the ordnance weapon again is (debatably) the same weapon. Again, no general rules for determining how to use the same weapon multiple times per shooting phase so its hard to know.

Even more questionably: Can you fire the Ordnance profile of the IA and then as your second attack use the non-ordnance profile?

Sorry, but as soon as you said "the consensus is wrong" in regards to GMC, anything you say from here on out has no credibility.

Sure, that's how intelligent rules debates work . Someone disagrees with you (about a contentious, poorly written rule that sparks 20 page debates and is ruled differently in many different FAQs) and you can just ignore them. Especially when its about a rule which is tangential at best to the current discussion.

Trasvi wrote:
Sure, that's how intelligent rules debates work . Someone disagrees with you (about a contentious, poorly written rule that sparks 20 page debates and is ruled differently in many different FAQs) and you can just ignore them. Especially when its about a rule which is tangential at best to the current discussion.

No its because I have already read and participated in said 20 page discussion and others and the VAST majority of people all agree. Only a vocal minority disagree.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Sure, that's how intelligent rules debates work . Someone disagrees with you (about a contentious, poorly written rule that sparks 20 page debates and is ruled differently in many different FAQs) and you can just ignore them. Especially when its about a rule which is tangential at best to the current discussion.

No its because I have already read and participated in said 20 page discussion and others and the VAST majority of people all agree. Only a vocal minority disagree.

And we can just ignore minorities, they're unimportant and wrong.
And when they have an opinion you don't agree with, not only are they wrong about that, but everything else they say is unimportant and wrong as well.
Great debating tactics.

Trasvi wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Sure, that's how intelligent rules debates work . Someone disagrees with you (about a contentious, poorly written rule that sparks 20 page debates and is ruled differently in many different FAQs) and you can just ignore them. Especially when its about a rule which is tangential at best to the current discussion.

No its because I have already read and participated in said 20 page discussion and others and the VAST majority of people all agree. Only a vocal minority disagree.

And we can just ignore minorities, they're unimportant and wrong.
And when they have an opinion you don't agree with, not only are they wrong about that, but everything else they say is unimportant and wrong as well.
Great debating tactics.

Founding principle of the Democrat party: we have more votes, so we can keep minorities oppressed.

Back on topic: codex doesn't automatically override BRB. But that doesn't matter because the MT doesn't address the restriction on firing weapons other than the 1x ord.
FARTHER back on topic: supposing the Riptide can only fire the one ORD weapon (most conservative reading) then RAW it can fire the same ORD weapons again, because it is firing only one weapon. Is it meant to be this way, or is the Tau codex very very very poorly written? Who knows, but that is what the book does, indeed, say.