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StormbringerGT wrote: Hello guys, my Name is David Lockwood and I am the Project Manager on Dungeon Crusade.
I just made this account to make this post. Viper is NOT affiliated with us in any way shape or form. He caused a similar sensation over on BGG, where words like "shill" popped up.
He is not part of our team, we did not pay him or anyone else to go into various forums and talk about our game. I appreciate his enthusiasm here... but it is obviously reflecting us in a negative light. I work in the video game industry and have seen what happens when video game companies have tried those sort of shenanigans... it doesn't end well.
Just wanted to pop in here and clear that up. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt though.
David
EDIT
Honestly looking at his other posts on other various forums... I almost want to say he KNOWS what he is doing makes us look bad.... but I can't understand why? Just the paranoia talking here I suspect.
Thanks for popping in. best of luck with Dungeon Crusade!
I am simply a fan of fantasy board games. Nothing more, nothing less. If I find a board game I like on Kickstarter, I don't mind voicing my opinion so others know it exists and it gets the most funding possible to be the best it can be. There is no conspiracy going on here. There are no bad intentions going on here. I do this with the best of intentions.
People are way too cynical these days.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/24 06:47:54
I know it is a radical idea, but perhaps instead of accusing others of being cynical one might spend a minute considering how they present themselves and other peoples work. If others see a problem and even the creator of the project does as well, one might take a moment and look inward instead of blaming outward.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote: I know it is a radical idea, but perhaps instead of accusing others of being cynical one might spend a minute considering how they present themselves and other peoples work. If others see a problem and even the creator of the project does as well, one might take a moment and look inward instead of blaming outward.
Since when did complimenting someone's work become a bad thing?
Ahtman wrote: I know it is a radical idea, but perhaps instead of accusing others of being cynical one might spend a minute considering how they present themselves and other peoples work. If others see a problem and even the creator of the project does as well, one might take a moment and look inward instead of blaming outward.
Since when did complimenting someone's work become a bad thing?
What a crazy messed up world we live in.
you're right. I think we misjudged you. Thanks for letting us know about this game
lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039
Ahtman wrote: I know it is a radical idea, but perhaps instead of accusing others of being cynical one might spend a minute considering how they present themselves and other peoples work. If others see a problem and even the creator of the project does as well, one might take a moment and look inward instead of blaming outward.
Since when did complimenting someone's work become a bad thing?
What a crazy messed up world we live in.
you're right. I think we misjudged you. Thanks for letting us know about this game
No problem. I just think this game looks tremendously ambitious. You can tell the creator put his heart and soul into Dungeon Crusade. I think the open-world format is truly revolutionary with all kinds of quests you can do with having to follow a linear path. I love the look and everything about it. So yes, I am very excited about this game, and that's why I came on here to share my excitement and let the gaming community know it exists.
Viper2 wrote: I am simply a fan of fantasy board games. Nothing more, nothing less. If I find a board game I like on Kickstarter, I don't mind voicing my opinion so others know it exists and it gets the most funding possible to be the best it can be. There is no conspiracy going on here. There are no bad intentions going on here. I do this with the best of intentions.
People are way too cynical these days.
As a rule of thumb, people on various forums don't mind the creators dropping in to pimp their wares - even if they've never been seen before and will never be seen again. We've had Sandy Petersen and Rick Priestly posting here at various times. On the other hand, users that only post on a specific forum in order to pimp kickstarters rather than join a community tend to be looked at far more cynically. It's just how it is. We don't know you, and trust tends to be earned rather than given freely. Especially on the internet when complete strangers and our money are concerned.
Why are miniatures so important? Does the quality of time/money spent on miniatures dictate how good a board game is now a days?
As for this question, I think perhaps David Lockwood himself said it best:
StormbringerGT wrote: Point: If I'm going to pay someone to promote my game it would be way less obvious. I also wouldn't be all like:
"Hey go advertise my game, which doesn't have minis, on a forum board with miniature enthusiast...."
I mean, we like boardgames here, but we're primarily here because toy soldiers.
As for the actual project, it seems to be a bit wide in scope for me, is a bit too expensive - especially with international shipping - and I've taken enough risks with first-time boardgame and Kickstarter producers that may deliver years late or not at all (Shadows of Brimstone, Journey, Robotech Tactics). Still, I wish Groovus/David/etc the best of luck with their project and hope it makes it to market and eventually, retail.
Sure, he spams posts to forums and the only topics he starts are his spam posts. But just because he appears to be a shill and acts that way, doesn't mean we have to jump to the obvious conclusion
Really, he just wants to draw attention to what he backs so he can get more loot. Sad that he doesn't understand that appearance is pretty much everything and that he's creating some ill will for what he wants to get people to back.
Points to StormbringerGT for coming on and talking. I think the game looks good. And i can see why it doesn't have miniatures. That would probably kick up the cost by a good amount. And adds a lot more complexity to the creation of the game.
What might be a good idea is to approach Reaper and suggest they make a set of their bones miniatures for use in the game. This could be an add on. Benefits both reaper and the main company, gives players a chance to get a nice set of miniatures for the game if they want one.
Hopefully this does well and hits retail. I wouldn't mind having it in my shops.
....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
What a community of chilled gamers! Thanks for not lynching me or the well intentioned Viper!
If you guys are curious I can answer some questions and concerns about content and miniatures and all that: I just addressed most of that on our page. Personally I am a miniatures man myself, but there were a few reasons why I chose not to use them for Rodger's first project. Mainly I wanted to keep the goal low and costs low as well and if we do miniatures I would want them to be f-in epic. Not something I was sure we could do right for our first outing.
(Shadows over Brimstone I am looking at you...)
Also to the 3 people from DakkaDakka who backed us (Kickstarter tells us where you came from) Thank ya kindly!
EDIT
Sent the email out to Reaper about them selling a bundle for us. Hope to hear back but I think they've been burned partnering with kickstarters in the past.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/24 20:58:20
StormbringerGT wrote: What a community of chilled gamers! Thanks for not lynching me or the well intentioned Viper!
If you guys are curious I can answer some questions and concerns about content and miniatures and all that: I just addressed most of that on our page. Personally I am a miniatures man myself, but there were a few reasons why I chose not to use them for Rodger's first project. Mainly I wanted to keep the goal low and costs low as well and if we do miniatures I would want them to be f-in epic. Not something I was sure we could do right for our first outing.
(Shadows over Brimstone I am looking at you...)
Also to the 3 people from DakkaDakka who backed us (Kickstarter tells us where you came from) Thank ya kindly!
EDIT
Sent the email out to Reaper about them selling a bundle for us. Hope to hear back but I think they've been burned partnering with kickstarters in the past.
A nearly $100 board game is low cost in your mind?
StormbringerGT wrote: What a community of chilled gamers! Thanks for not lynching me or the well intentioned Viper!
If you guys are curious I can answer some questions and concerns about content and miniatures and all that: I just addressed most of that on our page. Personally I am a miniatures man myself, but there were a few reasons why I chose not to use them for Rodger's first project. Mainly I wanted to keep the goal low and costs low as well and if we do miniatures I would want them to be f-in epic. Not something I was sure we could do right for our first outing.
(Shadows over Brimstone I am looking at you...)
Also to the 3 people from DakkaDakka who backed us (Kickstarter tells us where you came from) Thank ya kindly!
EDIT
Sent the email out to Reaper about them selling a bundle for us. Hope to hear back but I think they've been burned partnering with kickstarters in the past.
A nearly $100 board game is low cost in your mind?
It's a pretty substantial dungeon crawler, not fething Scrabble.
Perhaps you'd care to point to a comparable product retailing for notably less, rather than picking holes?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I had seen what this guy was doing on youtube with making deacent coop. I pledged for this but dropped my pledge after I saw the game came with no miniatures. Miniatures make or break a game for me! (But I am a collector, painter, modeler, etc). I guess I'll stick to wh quest, descent, zombicide, massive darkness, myth, kingdom death, and other dungeon crawler type games.
StormbringerGT wrote: What a community of chilled gamers! Thanks for not lynching me or the well intentioned Viper!
If you guys are curious I can answer some questions and concerns about content and miniatures and all that: I just addressed most of that on our page. Personally I am a miniatures man myself, but there were a few reasons why I chose not to use them for Rodger's first project. Mainly I wanted to keep the goal low and costs low as well and if we do miniatures I would want them to be f-in epic. Not something I was sure we could do right for our first outing. (Shadows over Brimstone I am looking at you...)
Also to the 3 people from DakkaDakka who backed us (Kickstarter tells us where you came from) Thank ya kindly!
EDIT Sent the email out to Reaper about them selling a bundle for us. Hope to hear back but I think they've been burned partnering with kickstarters in the past.
A nearly $100 board game is low cost in your mind?
It's a pretty substantial dungeon crawler, not fething Scrabble.
Perhaps you'd care to point to a comparable product retailing for notably less, rather than picking holes?
lol, really? The D&D boardgames are less than $50 each. Combine 2 of them and you get a gak load of scenarios/quests, dungeon tiles, a mountain of miniatures, rules that are tested, and no real wait time or chance of failure. Descent is in the $60-$70 range right now and with the difference to make $100 you can buy the coop quests or other additional content. Super Dungeon Explore is in that same price band.. I've not played it but loads of people seem to enjoy it. Zombicide BP + Wolfsburg Xpac runs you just over $100 on Amazon. Mantic's Dungeon Saga + and XPac is just over $100 ORRRRR If you want to go retro, you can pick up copies of Dragon Strike or Dark World.. you could likely cobble together a decent Heroquest (mine was a bit more but is more or less mint). OR.. and this is the really crazy one.. You could pick up the core books for an RPG since that's what this is trying to be.. oh and a deck of playing cards.
There's more.. there's so much more in fact that being asked to list ANY lower cost seems silly. I listed base games whose retail price was just over half of this at KS price and included miniatures and other options. That's not even counting Folklore The Affliction, Sword &Sorcery, Monolith's Conan, or the upcoming Massive Darkness. I'm not saying this guy shouldn't try but this is his 3rd or 4th attempt at this. Taking your superior tone with me when everything I've said is scribbled all over the wall is asinine.
EDIT: Oh, and since you mentioned Scrabble.. as bloated as this game is, are we sure Scrabble's not in there somewhere too?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/25 05:44:56
StormbringerGT wrote: What a community of chilled gamers! Thanks for not lynching me or the well intentioned Viper!
If you guys are curious I can answer some questions and concerns about content and miniatures and all that: I just addressed most of that on our page. Personally I am a miniatures man myself, but there were a few reasons why I chose not to use them for Rodger's first project. Mainly I wanted to keep the goal low and costs low as well and if we do miniatures I would want them to be f-in epic. Not something I was sure we could do right for our first outing.
(Shadows over Brimstone I am looking at you...)
Also to the 3 people from DakkaDakka who backed us (Kickstarter tells us where you came from) Thank ya kindly!
EDIT
Sent the email out to Reaper about them selling a bundle for us. Hope to hear back but I think they've been burned partnering with kickstarters in the past.
A nearly $100 board game is low cost in your mind?
It's a pretty substantial dungeon crawler, not fething Scrabble.
Perhaps you'd care to point to a comparable product retailing for notably less, rather than picking holes?
lol, really?
The D&D boardgames are less than $50 each. Combine 2 of them and you get a gak load of scenarios/quests, dungeon tiles, a mountain of miniatures, rules that are tested, and no real wait time or chance of failure.
Descent is in the $60-$70 range right now and with the difference to make $100 you can buy the coop quests or other additional content.
Super Dungeon Explore is in that same price band.. I've not played it but loads of people seem to enjoy it.
Zombicide BP + Wolfsburg Xpac runs you just over $100 on Amazon.
Mantic's Dungeon Saga + and XPac is just over $100
ORRRRR
If you want to go retro, you can pick up copies of Dragon Strike or Dark World.. you could likely cobble together a decent Heroquest (mine was a bit more but is more or less mint).
OR.. and this is the really crazy one.. You could pick up the core books for an RPG since that's what this is trying to be.. oh and a deck of playing cards.
There's more.. there's so much more in fact that being asked to list ANY lower cost seems silly. I listed base games whose retail price was just over half of this at KS price and included miniatures and other options. That's not even counting Folklore The Affliction, Sword &Sorcery, Monolith's Conan, or the upcoming Massive Darkness. I'm not saying this guy shouldn't try but this is his 3rd or 4th attempt at this. Taking your superior tone with me when everything I've said is scribbled all over the wall is asinine.
EDIT:
Oh, and since you mentioned Scrabble.. as bloated as this game is, are we sure Scrabble's not in there somewhere too?
MLaw, if you are so adamant on finding the most bargain game possible, why not just go do all your board game shopping at Goodwill or Salvation Army and buy whatever cheap games you can find there regardless of what they are? Surely you won't find better deals than that, right? Some of us just want games we find interesting regardless of whether they are the best "deals" or not. I wouldn't mind if Dungeon Crusade was $300 because I buy games that look interesting to me and I don't price shop for whichever titles are the cheapest. To each their own.
Viper2, that's not the point. I too think Dungeon Crusade looks good, but MLaw has a valid point. Comparable Dungeon Crawlers WITH miniatures go for a similiar price. 95 USD for cardboard and cards but no miniatures is really high.
That absolutely is the point. Not all of us are bargain hunters.
And I know of all the other dungeon crawl games out there and none of them are quite like Dungeon Crusade. It is very unique and that's why it appeals to me. I do not care if it is not the best price deal and I never buy a game based on if it's the best price deal. I buy a game because I like its mechanics and design. Like I said before "To each their own".
And I'm sure the entire game will be stunning to look at as well when it's done even if the minis are cardboard. Cardboard minis with great artwork can still look great!!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/25 08:52:18
That absolutely is the point. Not all of us are bargain hunters.
And I know of all the other dungeon crawl games out there and none of them are quite like Dungeon Crusade. It is very unique and that's why it appeals to me. I do not care if it is not the best price deal and I never buy a game based on if it's the best price deal. I buy a game because I like its mechanics and design. Like I said before "To each their own".
And I'm sure the entire game will be stunning to look at as well when it's done even if the minis are cardboard. Cardboard minis with great artwork can still look great!!
Bargain shopping? Give me a break.. It's called market research. None of the games I listed are "bargain". In fact, it's pretty much a comprehensive list of all modern and a few classic dungeon crawlers. Let's compare this to another industry. Let's say cars as an example. Why would you release a car with no sound system at the same price as a luxury car and then try to justify that by saying "oh but it's got 3 spare tires!". You want this to be successful, that's obvious. Your posting shows perhaps you're not being rational on any level though. Consider that this project has failed to fund in all of it's previous incarnations. Then ask yourself why that might be instead of dismissing what people critical of this game are saying. I am not and will not be backing this and I am stating my reasons. You don't have to (and obviously don't) agree with them. You'll not change my mind by insulting me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/25 18:08:24
That absolutely is the point. Not all of us are bargain hunters.
And I know of all the other dungeon crawl games out there and none of them are quite like Dungeon Crusade. It is very unique and that's why it appeals to me. I do not care if it is not the best price deal and I never buy a game based on if it's the best price deal. I buy a game because I like its mechanics and design. Like I said before "To each their own".
And I'm sure the entire game will be stunning to look at as well when it's done even if the minis are cardboard. Cardboard minis with great artwork can still look great!!
Bargain shopping? Give me a break.. It's called market research.
Have fun with your market research analysis. I, on the other hand, will buy and play games I like, and not based on their price.
Trust me I am well aware of the price point. Thanks for the feedback guys!
Dungeon Crawl is actually sort of niche in terms of broad appeal. The minimum print run we need to get this going is 1000 copies. At a 1000 copies we are paying a premium to get the game going.
As MLAW pointed out, there are a ton of great games at a lower price. But they have the advantage of being backed by a publisher or having enough money of their own to get the game going even if their kickstarter failed. Those games are printing at least 10000 copies. If we printed that many copies of Dungeon Crusade our pledge amount could be MUCH cheaper because at that many copies we would be paying much less per print. But our funding goal would need to be MUCH MUCH higher.
Hope this little insight helped give you a look at why I priced the game how I did.
I work in the Video Game industry as well. Trust me, when Rodger hired me to relaunch this I did a ton of research to make the numbers work.
Viper we REALLY appreciate the support and your enthusiasm for the game. However, Dungeon Crusade is not for everyone. We don't take offense when people don't want to back it and neither should you. Criticism is how we fix mistakes and get better.
You don't do us any favors getting into fights with the natives. They have their valid reasons to back or not to back and I completely respect that. You should too. I'm glad to you enjoy the game, and really do appreciate the support. Please try to avoid starting or getting into fights on the behalf of Dungeon Crusade.
Perhaps after DC has been released, you can have a miniatures-only KS. Alternately, of course, have art that matches with various Bones miniatures on the market, with Reaper's permission.
Thanks for posting, Stormbringer!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/25 21:10:19
That absolutely is the point. Not all of us are bargain hunters.
And I know of all the other dungeon crawl games out there and none of them are quite like Dungeon Crusade. It is very unique and that's why it appeals to me. I do not care if it is not the best price deal and I never buy a game based on if it's the best price deal. I buy a game because I like its mechanics and design. Like I said before "To each their own".
And I'm sure the entire game will be stunning to look at as well when it's done even if the minis are cardboard. Cardboard minis with great artwork can still look great!!
Trading insults with him does not further your purpose, though - and a lot of people do care about the price. (I am one of them.)
Which does not mean that the game is not a good value for the money, but at a steep price, the audience becomes more limited.
The other thing to bear in mind about including miniatures is that for a lot of folks, the miniatures are likely to see use outside of their intended game.
So a game that looks worthwhile because of its miniature content is more likely to attract, well... miniatures gamers.
I am a lot more likely to spring for a game like Dungeon Saga, that contains a lot of nifty looking plastic miniatures, than I would for a game that uses cardboard standees.
Because I know that even if the game itself turns out to suck, I will still have the minis.
The Auld Grump
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StormbringerGT wrote: Trust me I am well aware of the price point. Thanks for the feedback guys!
Dungeon Crawl is actually sort of niche in terms of broad appeal. The minimum print run we need to get this going is 1000 copies. At a 1000 copies we are paying a premium to get the game going.
As MLAW pointed out, there are a ton of great games at a lower price. But they have the advantage of being backed by a publisher or having enough money of their own to get the game going even if their kickstarter failed. Those games are printing at least 10000 copies. If we printed that many copies of Dungeon Crusade our pledge amount could be MUCH cheaper because at that many copies we would be paying much less per print. But our funding goal would need to be MUCH MUCH higher.
Hope this little insight helped give you a look at why I priced the game how I did.
I work in the Video Game industry as well. Trust me, when Rodger hired me to relaunch this I did a ton of research to make the numbers work.
Viper we REALLY appreciate the support and your enthusiasm for the game. However, Dungeon Crusade is not for everyone. We don't take offense when people don't want to back it and neither should you. Criticism is how we fix mistakes and get better.
You don't do us any favors getting into fights with the natives. They have their valid reasons to back or not to back and I completely respect that. You should too. I'm glad to you enjoy the game, and really do appreciate the support. Please try to avoid starting or getting into fights on the behalf of Dungeon Crusade.
The game does look interesting, and I really hope that you can set up a working relationship with Reaper.
Were you looking at new sculpts, or using existing Bones miniatures as an addon?
Either sounds like a good idea, and if the miniatures bundle is available as an addon without the game... you may attract some interst for the game as well.
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/25 20:50:19
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Viper we REALLY appreciate the support and your enthusiasm for the game. However, Dungeon Crusade is not for everyone. We don't take offense when people don't want to back it and neither should you. Criticism is how we fix mistakes and get better.
You don't do us any favors getting into fights with the natives. They have their valid reasons to back or not to back and I completely respect that. You should too. I'm glad to you enjoy the game, and really do appreciate the support. Please try to avoid starting or getting into fights on the behalf of Dungeon Crusade.
A very good point. I've just caught up in this thread and his antagonistic tone (from someone who we don't "know" and is only here to pimp a KS) just makes me want to come up with more reasons not to back and post them in the discussion - as opposed to your much more reasoned and reasonable posts - which still don't make me want to back, but cause a reaction of "ok then" and "well, good luck to you."
Thanks guys. I'm not trying to sell a game sans miniatures to a bunch of gamers who love miniatures.
I've contacted reaper about something. That would work well because a lot of the prototypes were done around existing reaper miniatures.
New sculpts have a pretty high price tag, artists charge a lot more (as they should) to 3d sculpt a miniature. Not to mention we'd still need to pay for the 2d art anyway. Then the molds themselves cost several thousand dollars. Each mold as well is only good for a certain number of printings. The fail rate for each miniature is also high and Quality Control on that end gets costly.
Simply put, I would LOVE to do miniatures. Our own sculpts. That would be a dream come true. But for our first project, trying to find a realistic number (we couldn't come out asking for $200k, being our first time out) and making sure we could do, good proper minis; it just wasn't in the cards.
That doesn't mean I am giving up. I understand we are losing a large market share not having minis. So I'm trying to get something going with reaper and I'm still shopping around to find good prices to get our own made. But they are not the main priority. If we start to over fund I intended to bump them up in priority. Right now getting the content and quality of the content is a top priority.
Heh sorry if I'm a bore with the inner workings and such.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/25 23:15:46
If the Reaper discussion works out, please let us know -- and let the Reaper forums know! Myself, I backed all three Reaper Bones KS, so would like to use a paint scheme that matches those in DC if I happen to already have the miniatures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/26 00:39:56
If the Reaper discussion works out, please let us know -- and let the Reaper forums know! Myself, I backed all three Reaper Bones KS, so would like to use a paint scheme that matches those in DC if I happen to already have the miniatures.
I backed all their KS as well. Maybe that'll give me some clout!
I think it really just depends on your audience. If you're someone like us, you want to play with army men. Standees are perfectly fine for RPG & board game crowds though. Pathefinder uses lots of standees so there's definitely plenty of folks that like them.
-- $k 
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