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Steakley wrote Armor, right? I enjoyed that.

I saw the D long before Carpenter's Vampires was ever released, so that's probably why I have that association, regardless of where the game obviously drew more inspiration from.

I do find it odd though that the community isn't roasting these guys for not getting the minis specifics down. Every other campaign outside of CMON and Mantic (which are known quantities at this point) it seems these questions pop up quite regularly.

 Barzam wrote:
The book that movie is basef on was written by John Steakley. I may have to check that out. I'm with Tamburlaine though. D was what came to mind when he mentioned the Kickstarter to me.

The Steakley book is great. The movie covers about the first half of the book, the book continues the story a bit.

And yes, he wrote Armor (another great book).

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I do find it odd though that the community isn't roasting these guys for not getting the minis specifics down. Every other campaign outside of CMON and Mantic (which are known quantities at this point) it seems these questions pop up quite regularly.

That is why I'm wondering if its because backers have played it at conventions or if this is more of a 'board game' group where they care less about the miniatures (which I find odd). That is the only red flag to me, other than I don't like first created (canceled campaign doesn't count) and zero backed but that is a minor quibble.

I mean there isn't at least one conspiracy theorist (since they haven't said what material it is going to be yet), who hasn't suggested that Prodos might be involved because they haven't announced it. I don't think its going that route thought. Given the Z:BP reference I was thinking Ludo, maybe Panda, but since no definite answer yet it could be someplace else. I just don't want to see what happened to Project: ELITE happen here.

PRODOS would not be good...

PANDA, from what I've personally seen/received, is very hit or miss in terms of miniature quality.

If they don't announce it before the end of the campaign, I don't think I'll be backing this one.

They told me who their sculptor was: Alexei Popovici

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1608064/vampire-hunters-launched-and-funded

And I read somewhere else it was one of the Chinese factories producing board games (but cannot remember where I saw that so take it as unverified).

On that note has it ever been mentioned who CMON has been using for PVC minis lately? I want to know for my own nefarious needs. My Blood Rage minis came out really great, almost resiny detail quality. Would be cool to see more games using them from other companies.

 Necros wrote:
On that note has it ever been mentioned who CMON has been using for PVC minis lately? I want to know for my own nefarious needs. My Blood Rage minis came out really great, almost resiny detail quality. Would be cool to see more games using them from other companies.

As far as I know CMON has been using Ludo, at least I was fairly sure that is who did Blood Rage.

unless they've got a bunch of cash they probably can't say for certain who will do the casting, because until final contracts are signed it can all fall apart

(price hikes, somebody else with more cash coming and asking for a million widgets right where their game was going to go etc)

but defiantly not ideal if the minis are the main draw of the project

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
unless they've got a bunch of cash they probably can't say for certain who will do the casting, because until final contracts are signed it can all fall apart

(price hikes, somebody else with more cash coming and asking for a million widgets right where their game was going to go etc)

but defiantly not ideal if the minis are the main draw of the project

That doesn't make any sense to me though. Other campaigns even before contracts were signed at least knew ahead of time who they were looking to go through at first. They knew what materials the miniatures were going to be. I can't remember which two, but there were a couple Kickstarters that were looking at both Ludo and Panda but didn't sign a contract with Ludo until towards the end of the campaign. However during the campaign they still announced where they were looking to get them manufactured.

I do wonder if there are some companies that have some stipulations as well. One KS campaign Ludo was backed and in the comments but didn't officially say they were producing it until it had reached a certain threshold. However during the campaign the creator at least said they were looking into X and Y for manufacturing.

The red flag is the unknown for me, not necessarily about miniature quality but that is important to me. Since nothing is signed and finalized then how do they know they have enough funds to deliver? How do they know they have made enough enough to cover what they want to produce, they had to have an initial quote, an idea from somewhere? So how was that initial cost determined and with whom? If that place becomes too high because of price increases, what are the emergency plans and options?

During the campaign, not having a final answer, is ok... BUT they have to and should have an answer before the end, otherwise there are way too many variables that will effect delivery and the final product. (If they don't get their first choice for miniatures, do they have a second, or do they have to downgrade the quality or cut costs on other parts of the game to get that manufacturer)

I know Darklight had said from very early on (before the campaign started actually, if I remember correctly) they were going to work with Ludo.

This did eventually get finalized and confirmed before the campaign ended.

Even if Prodos did somehow end up involved, I can't think of a time they've thrown a wrench into someone else's campaign.

Their own stuff is a whole other matter naturally...

I also have a gut feeling that they have not accounted for the costs properly. Either that or they know more than they have shared which in my opinion would be even worse. Something just doesn't sit right with me about this project, even though I like so much of what I see.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Even if Prodos did somehow end up involved, I can't think of a time they've thrown a wrench into someone else's campaign.

I'm actually not worried if Prodos is involved, I prefer resin/HIPS hybrid to plastic anyways. I know there would be a few people who would probably say a few things differently. I am more concerned that costs aren't properly accounted for. Maybe they are and they just aren't sharing, but at least know where they've looked at for manufacturing helps give a basic baseline.

You'll be surprised at the HUGE difference in quotes for plastic tooling we received from China compared to the European manufacturers (and I'm not referring only to Renedra). Some times the difference was that big that (even if you calculated shipping costs and custom fees) you could easily tool three kits compared to a single one here in the old continent, maybe even squeeze a small fourth. So quality is what you pay for and this brings me to (without having absolutely any knowledge of what the plans from Dark Gate are obviously) finding it reasonable to presume they have quotations from at least 3 different manufacturers at this stage.

The key question IMO is another however; should they achieve to collect the funds necessary to tool at the more expensive quotation, does the project creator go through with it, or does he change his mind midway and opt for the cheaper option instead? And that's what has caused Kostas (our vampire enthusiast in the group) not to pledge. Yet. As he really wants to. Lol!

Where's @Artemis where we need him?

I decided that with 10 days gone by since launch, it was a good time at least talk about the miniatures again. I figured I would ask a basic question, unfortunately it looks like it was just ignored. Not even a response of something along the lines I don't know or I don't have that information, just again completely ignored. I just wanted to know if the manufacturer was going to be finalized before the end of the campaign or at the very least the places they were looking at. I was trying to figure out if they would announce it in an update or if it would just be said in comments, either way trying to decide if I was just wasting my time.

Question: Kyle Bentley - One of the big draws for me is the miniatures. What will they be made of and how big will they be?
Answer: Tony at DGG - PVC and the same size as Z:BP miniatures.

Question: Kyle Bentley - Thanks for the quick answer, though it doesn't totally answer my question. Are you saying that the figures will be between 28mm and heroic 28mm (sometimes called 32mm) scale?"
Answer: Tony at DGG - No. I am saying they are the same scale as Zombicide: Black Plague. These minis are readily available in comparative images on the web and at many FLGS, if you want to see them in person.
There is some argument on the web as to scale of these minis. I have seen it quoted between 28mm and 35mm. When I measuring from bottom of the feet to eye level, I get 32-34mm on all the Z:BP minis I have measured so far. These include men and women, and are mainly standing nice and straight.
Neither Z:BP nor Vampire Hunter minis have the exaggerated hands, feet and heads of Hero Scale minis.

They did at least answer someone else about the material and scale. Although Z:BP is not a scale, although a minor quibble compared to knowing what the manufacturer. I am not sure I like that they are just saying they are going to be 28mm-35mm because Z:BP is that size. It just seems like they don't understand scale and size. Some of the sculpts are stylized and bulky, the rule and cool and all which is fine. I just haven't seen anything that makes me confident of quality yet, simply saying PVC is not the same thing either.

 Dark Severance wrote:

They did at least answer someone else about the material and scale. Although Z:BP is not a scale, although a minor quibble compared to knowing what the manufacturer. I am not sure I like that they are just saying they are going to be 28mm-35mm because Z:BP is that size. It just seems like they don't understand scale and size. Some of the sculpts are stylized and bulky, the rule and cool and all which is fine. I just haven't seen anything that makes me confident of quality yet, simply saying PVC is not the same thing either.

Yeah, that was me. I've been looking at the KS as potential miniatures for RPGs, This is not a Test, and similar games, and since the message I sent to them didn't get answered I figured I would put myself down as a backer so I could ask in the comments. I was hoping for more information than what they gave, and it certainly doesn't seem that they understand scales, as you said, but we still have almost three weeks in the campaign. I figure we will see what happens, and if it looks questionable I can always pull my pledge.

I think you've got to accept that it's a boardgame aiming to do stuff for a boardgaming market where

they'll be the same sort of size a Z:BP

is probably good enough, (and they might not know much if anything about scale if they've not come from a toy soldiers or scale modelling background)

not good if your prime concern is that the minis are usable elsewhere, but that's not who they seem to be targeting

(I would like to know which factory or factories have given quotes though because as you say pvc can range widely in quality, although more of that is in the sculpting than the material)

I'd 'only' be using these miniatures for this boardgame, but I am still concerned about where they're getting them made.

If they don't/won't/can't share that info before the campaign ends, I won't be backing.

I'm out and I don't think there is anyway to convince me otherwise. I'll stay in for $1 and I honestly want to be proven wrong because I like the look of this but the answers show they are "optimistic" but lack knowledge of experience, completely ignoring issues of Kickstarters that are having issues who are in a same boat as them (Middara). Given how they have answered they won't commit or at least give a name. Everytime someone asks they ignore it but also so do most of the other backers who prattle on, no one seems to care or think there might be any type of red flag to question. The odd thing I actually felt more comfortable backing LOAD because I knew they were a company that had the capability to manufacturer and could (granted I understand the issues with AvP)... however it is so strange watching this and not seeing it becoming an issue. Given that the first project reached $86K with their goal was $35K and they canceled and the answers they have given or haven't... there are too many red flags for me at this point for a new company, given what they are offering and attempting.

Tony at DGG

DevGuy "How can DGG not know [the manufacturer] yet price their kickstarter and their addons?"

We posted this 5 hours ago: "As we have said, we have quotes from several manufacturers that we are evaluating based on quality and their level of responsiveness to our needs. We are only entertaining quotes from manufactures that have a past history of matching the Z:BP miniatures in level of detail." When manufacturers send us a quote, that tells us the manufacturing cost. That is the purpose of a quote.

@DevGuy "What is the nature of DGG's relationship with Succubus Publishing ... I don't want Vampire Hunters to suffer the same fate if I back it.

Here is what we said on July 30th: "Succubus Publishing gave us the concept art, the name and the rights to use it. After that, we do all the work, which starts with our sculpt for Nyx, which is on the previous update." I don't understand why you think us working from their concept art will make us suffer the same fate.

@Everyone asking for the manufacturer: As we have said, we have quotes from several manufacturers that we are evaluating based on quality and their level of responsiveness to our needs. We are only entertaining quotes from manufactures that have a past history of matching the Z:BP miniatures in level of detail.

There isn't exactly a huge list of manufacturers that have a past history of matching Z:BP and I only know one that is consistent. There are no other ones that could do so in a timely manner. That means they will complete this Kickstarter and they don't even have one lined up, yet they can deliver in 11 months... without knowing whom or understanding they aren't in the queue yet. I know the mistake of simply going off a quote, without adding extra time and money because of changes that happen within a couple months. Not in a queue and it being at minimum 30-45 before they have funds to sign one is a long time and the time period that can add an additional 6-12 months. Yet estimated delivery is July 2017, 11 months away. Not having one signed before this ends means backers potentially have to deal with issues similar to Project: Elite, Creature Caster, and even Middara... Conan knew who they were going with but they couldn't meet that deadline.

The fact that they don't understand the issue that Succubus Publishing or others that were in similar state... is just astounding. They can at least acknowledge the risk and explain what they've done to make sure that won't happen but instead they are acting confused. I'm not sure how they can not understand the risk. Succubus Publishing didn't have a signed contract before their completion of the Kickstarter. Thus the costs to from other companies couldn't make the quality they wanted and what they earned wasn't enough to fully produce it. They flopped between Panda and Prodos but then finally settled on Panda, which has pluses and negatives but because of being new in the queue (as I stated above) delivery date (if ever) isn't going to be for another year most likely (and they are already 5 months over their estimated dates).

Now I like the game mechanics, at least the concept behind them being something different. I really like the 3d renders, they are good (much better than Middara and not suffering the soft details or deep cuts). I want this to succeed but there are some serious issues, acting like they aren't is how Kickstarters don't deliver. It is one thing to be positive but the answers given doesn't show there is a real business plan in place for the "when Y doesn't happen". It shows a lack of learning from others mistakes and that scares me.

Hi guys,

I visit Dakka almost everyday and it is by far my favorite forum about tabletop gaming, so I could not stand that in my favorite forum there was such a bad vibe on Vampire Hunters.

DGG has its hands full with the management of the Kickstarter so I took it on myself to shed some light on this project since I am helping them with their Kickstarter. Most of you guys are veterans of the gaming tables so your questions are deeper than usual.

There have been lots of rumors about Vampire Hunters and it is time to clear the air.


Which factory is going to manufacture Vampire Hunter?

No contract has been signed yet with a manufacturer. However I have personally received quotes from several factories in China and shortlisted those that guarantee the best quality (NOT the best price, since DGG does not want to go cheap). At this stage it seems likely we will manufacture it with Ludofact, but we have two more high quality Chinese factories lined up with a good track record and several best selling games on their belt.



Why haven't you signed a contract to manufacture Vampire hunters yet?

Simple: because we want to produce Vampire Hunters at the best possible quality. Being DGG's first project it would have been impossible to sign up with Ludofact or other top manufacturers since we did not know how many copies of the games would be supported by backers on Kickstarter. Choosing a factory before the launch would have forced DGG to sign with a more affordable manufacturer in China with lower guarantee about the quality of the end product.



Why was the first campaign for Vampire Hunters canceled?

As always there were several reasons but the main one is that DGG realized the real potential of their game was far greater than they expected. Once they were live they got feedbacks on so many aspects of the project and realized that fixing them after the Kickstarter would have surely delayed the fulfillment by several months. So they pulled the plug, went back to the drawing board and fixed the miniatures, game mechanics and project management (tough call when you are above your funding goal but I have seen many projects that should have done the same, didn't, and had problems later down the line).



Is July 2017 a realistic estimated delivery date?

It is tight but not impossible. DGG has worked for 1 year on the rules and playtesting of the game. Of all the projects I have been involved with very few were at a better stage by the time they launched the project on Kickstarter. In the other projects I have worked on getting a production slot at the factory was not the limiting factor. Most of the time the issues are upstream. Sometimes the issues are with the miniature sculpts that need to be adjusted or re-sculpted for injection molding, sometimes the printed material or finalizing the rules is the issue. What I am saying is that not having signed with a manufacturer yet does not imply a delay.



Why didn't DGG reply earlier to the questions about manufacturing?

DGG decided to keep quiet until they had a clearer picture of who could be handling the manufacture of Vampire Hunters. Was it a smart move? maybe, maybe not. However they preferred to avoid spreading false rumors and waited until now to give a realistic answer. Now I got the green light and here I am, answering these questions.



Which scale and material are the miniatures going to be?

As said before by Tony, the miniatures are going to be on average 32-34mm which is comparable to Z:BP. Material will be PVC. We are going to show some photos of the 3d printed figures in the coming days. I am going to 3d print them myself and share them with you guys.




I think this post should make things clear for most of you. In case I forgot something or you have more questions I will check this tread from now on.

They have added a few nice Add Ons.

One that might be of interest even for folks that are not interested in the game:



And an expansion to allow a 5th or 6th player:

Those are the things that should have been said in the beginning instead of tapping around them. Not having a contract or having a contract doesn't prevent a company from being transparent in those regards.

That does help but it wasn't really here it should have been said, it should be said on Kickstarter. There are a few discussions about this topic on Facebook and a few other places.

 Dark Severance wrote:
Those are the things that should have been said in the beginning instead of tapping around them. Not having a contract or having a contract doesn't prevent a company from being transparent in those regards.

That does help but it wasn't really here it should have been said, it should be said on Kickstarter. There are a few discussions about this topic on Facebook and a few other places.

Any information earlier in the Kickstarter could have been misleading for the backers and we decided to wait until we had a solid answer for everybody. I agree with you that we may have been very cautious with our statements but since the beginning DGG said the quality of the miniatures would be very high and comparable to the top games in the market. We committed to that statement.

Anyway DGG is working on the next update and the good news should be mentioned there.

I posted here personally because this is my favorite forum and also the thread with the highest density of questions on this topic.

astrilux wrote:
since the beginning DGG said the quality of the miniatures would be very high and comparable to the top games in the market. We committed to that statement.

Which frankly means nothing.

Their opinion of 'very high and comparable to the top games in the market' may not match the opinion of others, which is partly why folks have been asking the questions they have. Without samples from the manufacturer in the same material they intend to use for this we don't really know how that 'commitment' translates into what will be delivered.

I'll be honest, right now you seem to be offering a lot of unique sculpts for the price per backer being asked, especially at what is really a low volume (under 5k copies). I am wondering how you will be able to deliver at the "very high and comparable to the top games in the market" quality you are committed to deliver...

Kudos fact is apparently doing the miniatures.

We have more good news from our financial team. We have shared a lot of information about the game but not about our manufacturing plans. The premier board game manufacturer Ludofact is our first choice for the production of Vampire Hunters. In the past few weeks, we have been in contact with Ludofact and they are very happy to manufacture Vampire Hunters and fit us in to their production queue!

Ludofact guarantees top quality for all their games.

As we have said since the beginning, we want only the best quality for our game.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1900818244/vampire-hunters-0/posts/1652521





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stupid auto correct it is Ludo not Kudos.

A list of the latest SGs that have been unlocked:

They're 100% using Ludo?

If so...I'm probably back in!

Thanks for taking the time to post during your campaign, astrilux and for that info Ernster!

@RiTides: you are welcome. It feels good to contribute to Dakka's News & Rumors section after reading it for so long.

If Ludofact are onboard then my confidence levels just went though the roof. This really does look like a very good kickstarter now. Best of luck guys

Do we know if we can go in 'for a dollar' now and upgrade later?