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I think the concept of 'Formations' is a flawed logic circle.

Necrons need a boost, make CAD irrelevant with super formation.

Orkz need a boost, make CAD irrelevant with super formation. Super Formation sucks, make a different formation.

Instead of fixing the root of the problem, piss poor balance at the foundation, they are just tacking extra clauses on until something sticks.

If you NEED to create a formation to make a codex viable then you suck at making codi.

I play LotR: SBG because that game is the most balanced, simple, and fun miniature game out there. There are a few powerful lists of course, namely Fell Beasts, but these are so few and far between that everyone is comfortable and not toxic. What gave SBG this status: Solid core rules, generally solid factions. NOT formations invented to solve simple problems.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tyel wrote:
The problem is the design philosophy. Free stuff only makes sense if something was fundamentally over-costed before.

30 point Plasma Calivers. 10 point Conversion Fields on T3 models with 2W and a 6+ FNP. 25 point Transauranic Arquebi for what is effectively a Sniper Rifle with Armourbane. 20 point Power Maces with Haywire.

So yeah. War Convocation definitely can get a lot of "free stuff", but most of that is coming from it already being wildly overpointed or you've just been throwing random crap onto the Skitarii side of things. The hallmark of a successful War Convocation is that you've done it in such a way that you have enough points "free" to create something big as a secondary Detachment for the Cult Mechanicus bits, boosting up the Canticles count for everything.

That's not even factoring the potential 150 points or so of free upgrades to an Imperial Knight, or the fact that a gods damned Imperial Knight is benefiting from the Canticles in the first place.

Worth noting that War Convocation rarely will not have max size squads, as max size squads for Skitarii are the only way to get triple from their Special Weapons.

Gladius should have had more of a restriction than just "Chaplain and Captain". Should have mandated a Command Squad for each and full sized Tactical Squads.

That would work as well.

The convocation....yeah. That thing is a mess and it's a dataslate to boot. Bad enough that facing an Ad Mech army consists of saying 'And what does that do?' about ninety percent of the time anyway because every other weapon has half a dozen special rules or clauses tacked onto it on its own, and then you have the unit it's tacked onto and then you have whatever doctrine or canticles are in effect...

I'm actually curious to see if it's possible to set up a tournament which is ITC rules but with the following 'clause' - Free is not Free. You still pay for it - and see how that works.

My biggest issue with the Free Stuff formations is simply the fact that the formations already have perks comparable to other formations before you even consider the free stuff they're getting.

And when people say 'Oh, but the relics are overpriced' or that the units are terrible....well, that's irrelevant when the relics are free and the units are getting the upgrades that make them not-terrible for free.

I had an idea and was curious how much of a gak-storm it would stir up.

What if we made an 'Aeldari' formation....

Consisting of DE, Harlequins and Craftworld Eldar...with free upgrades and granting Battle Focus to everything.

Or what if doubling one of the Guardian Host formations gave them free Wave Serpents?

I can tell you right now half the imperial players in the game would literally give birth to live kittens in rage and fury.

Dark Eldar Warriors suddenly don't seem so bad if all their upgrades are free and they get Battle Focus.
Falcons with free weapon and vehicle upgrades?

And yet these same people expect us to happily accept that free ObSec transports and free Upgrades across an entire army are perfectly reasonable.

It's exactly what happened in 6th ed with the SM, Tau and Eldar codexes at the time. GW took a new approach, lost all track of balance in the middle, someone slapped them on the wrist and they toned down what followed afterwards. Hence why the Tyranid, AM, Blood Angel and Ork books all look like sad, sorry underpowered messes compared to the holy trinity that came before.

It happened again with the Decurion approach. The only 'oddity' was KDK really (probably because its core hinges off the god awful 6th ed CSM rules so units are overpointed and lacking for options). But you noticed there was a brief period of Everyone Gets Stuff for Free! which then promptly faded into obscurity....

 BoomWolf wrote:
True, but not accurate.

See, the value of getting free stuff is weight against the value of said stuff to begin with.
ARE free rhinos/pots (NOT RAZORS) worth the lack of flexibility of combat squads for your 30 tactical marines?

Yea, it kina is.
But who took 3 full squads of tactical marines without it? or 6 minimal squads?
Heck, how often you even saw three minimal tactical squads?
TBH, in a CAD, most people would be reluctant to take ANY tacticals, and if at all it would be two minimal squads. (total 10 men) rather than 3 full, or six minimal (total 30 men) that they bring in the gladius.

Then you need to consider the opportunity cost involved.
Yea, you get a nice bonus, but it comes in the cost of other bonuses, like the CAD's flexibility, or another formation's benefits. (and yea, most formation benefits are not easy to price by models, but some are jaw-dropping powerful in how much better they make the models that are in them)

Case in point, had the gladius been limited to just rhinos and pods, I'm not so sure the free stuff it gives are enough to counterbalance the requirements and limitations it puts on your list compared to other formations and/or CADS.
Well, at least its not an easy choice. some players will go for the free rhinos and pods, others for the flexiilbty of a CAD, and some will go for other formations for the bonuses.
And the fact that there would be no clear right choice is the best thing you can do. it breeds versatility and encourages personal playstyles when you can't easily point out at one thing and say "this is best"


The issue is not in the act of freebies, it at just how good the freebies are. and razor freebies are just a lot more meaningful than rhinos or pods, that's why everyone take razors.

I gotta say that's the complete opposite of my competitive builds, which rely heavily on Rhinos and Pods. Maybe some people do take Razorbacks, but around here it's Rhinos with Grav Tacticals inside for getting the most value out of your Transports.

IMO the Razorbacks are a waste for your Tactical models in the Battle Company, since they can't fire out of it. Whereas Rhinos get your min-Grav Cannon squads up the table fast and protect them as they fire out the top. Any Razorbacks I take will be for a backfield Devastators Squad, since they don't have to go anywhere.

. . .

Big fan of the Free Transports for regular Demi-Co if all the (primary) Squads have 10 models idea. I'd rather be encouraged to take 10 man squads than 6-12 five-man squads.

I am still laughing at those fools who think that getting 500+ points worth of gear for nothing is a bad thing, or not powerful.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still laughing at those fools who think that getting 500+ points worth of gear for nothing is a bad thing, or not powerful.

I knew we'd agree eventually. This formation is one of the defining differences between vanilla and BA. Russes still suck, though.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still laughing at those fools who think that getting 500+ points worth of gear for nothing is a bad thing, or not powerful.

I knew we'd agree eventually. This formation is one of the defining differences between vanilla and BA. Russes still suck, though.

BA stll better than IG

BoomWolf wrote:
Case in point, had the gladius been limited to just rhinos and pods, I'm not so sure the free stuff it gives are enough to counterbalance the requirements and limitations it puts on your list compared to other formations and/or CADS.

My tournament list is a Lion's Blade detachment, which is the Dark Angels version of the Gladius - more restrictive, but it has a cheaper minimum Auxiliary option (one Scout Squad instead of three). It's a mix of Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods. All Rhinos and Pods would be fine with me.

What people forget about Razorbacks is that you don't just get extra stuff. There are trade-offs. The turret mounted heavy weapon costs you transport capacity, the Repair rule, and the firing hatch. Losing transport capacity doesn't matter so much when you're fielding 5-man squads, and the Repair rule hardly ever pays off, but losing the firing hatch is huge. Getting a twin-linked heavy bolter in return is not worth +20pts.

DarkStarSabre wrote:
What if we made an 'Aeldari' formation....

Consisting of DE, Harlequins and Craftworld Eldar...with free upgrades and granting Battle Focus to everything.

Or what if doubling one of the Guardian Host formations gave them free Wave Serpents?

I can tell you right now half the imperial players in the game would literally give birth to live kittens in rage and fury.

Dark Eldar Warriors suddenly don't seem so bad if all their upgrades are free and they get Battle Focus.
Falcons with free weapon and vehicle upgrades?

The Guardian Host formations actually already do provide a free upgrades. The Windrider detachment doesn't get anything, but Defenders get a free heavy weapon platform, and Storm Guardians can get up to 50pts of free upgrades. Not to mention everybody getting automatic max movement on Battle Focus and all the crazy buffs the aspect formations get. I think it says something about how overpowered some of the Eldar units are when Eldar players are running CADs at major tournaments and they're competitive with detachments that give free units.

Also bear in mind there's a significant difference between an AV11 box with no significant weaponry and an AV12 fast skimmer that comes with a twin linked heavy weapon stock and can mount a second - not to mention the defensive system that can be used as a weapon as well.

Ug. Another of these. "I'm a competitive player, and I don't think broken stuff is bad, because other broken stuff exists" arguments.

So many obvious flaws. If your house is on fire, you wouldn't want someone to walk up and light your car on fire as well. Sure, the car burning might not be as bad as the house burning, but it is still really, really bad.

And before I get denounced as a fluff bunny not understanding competitive play. I attend 23 competitive tournaments in 2016 including 9 GT's, ran an ITC major, and ended the year with 8 ITC event scores higher than 75 points. I spent time in the ITC top 10, and almost the entire year in the top 50. So while I'm not Matt Root, I am a legitimately competitive player. I hate Gladius and War Convo because they make competitive play worse. I actually think they'd be fine for fluffy apoc players. But not for small point (less than 3K) friendly games, and definitely not for competitive play.

There are 3 core reasons why free points are bad for the game in a competitive sense.
1) GW's design philosophy has been so wildly inconsistent that free points are poorly distributed, and not well thought through.
2) It creates uber builds limiting army diversity. This is especially bad for competitive play, and especially true for marines and ad mech.
3) It devalues points, and is an intentional effort to avoid balancing the game.

And one big one that some competitive players might object to.
4) It destroys the fluff of the game. eg. Gladius turns space marines into a disposable hoard army.

Let me posit this. As a competitive player. What would you prefer?
Scenario A. is a wildly inconsistent rule-set that limits competitive builds, limits army diversity, devalues the skill of list building, and encourages unfluffy play-styles
or
Scenario B. A consistent rule-set with relatively balanced rules which open up many different competitive builds, reward skilled list builders, and encourage fluffier games?

Of course Gladius is awful. Of Course War Convocation is a stinky turd. Living in a world with worse stuff doesn't make "Really Bad" stuff "Not that bad", and certainly doesn't make it good.

I'm gonna contest point 4.


point 4 means that the mix of a Space Marine army consists of a ratio 3 squads tatical, 1 heavy squad and 1 fast attack squad, plus supporting assists.


This is exactly how they are fluffed as deploying. it's certainly less fluff breaking then 1 librarian, 2 scout squads and a bunch of grav cents, which was the "WAAC build" back before the gladius.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
What if we made an 'Aeldari' formation....

Consisting of DE, Harlequins and Craftworld Eldar...with free upgrades and granting Battle Focus to everything.

Or what if doubling one of the Guardian Host formations gave them free Wave Serpents?

Honestly though, I'd like to see them just give battle focus to the dark eldar; at this point though it'd just be a formation unlock which is just dumb.

Another way at looking at the free is not free thing would be to look at it in a way AoS has; make them pay for their formations as well. That'd require someone to figure out a fair cost for each formation but I feel with the way things are going short of just removing formations this may make things a bit better.


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Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still laughing at those fools who think that getting 500+ points worth of gear for nothing is a bad thing, or not powerful.

I knew we'd agree eventually. This formation is one of the defining differences between vanilla and BA. Russes still suck, though.

Imagine a formation that gives you 3+ units of death company with free upgrades and the potential to assault the turn they arrive via deep strike if they wanted to. The most fun part will be the backlash and how quickly people jump ship to BAs.

Ultimately a lot of these formations are GW doing patches without releasing new data slates - and sometimes they just swing way too far in the other direction. However, its not going to last forever - I expect most of the old formations will be invalidated by the new edition before all is said and done.

Free stuff is too good in some situations (Gladius), not great when combined with other bonuses (on the other hand, Skittari and Cult Mechanicus are both messes without War Convo), or are irrelevant in others. From a purely competitive standpoint, neither Gladius nor War Convo are pushing back very well against Eldar's grip on the upper crust of the tourney scene. It feels like people just find the idea of 'free stuff' offensive.

Or have their favorite armies stuck in codeci that don't have much going for them and are badly in need of being retuned. That is always an good reason to dislike 'fix' formations when you've not gotten one yourself.

I definatly agree formations feel like a "fix" for under performing codices. one need only look at traitor legions for the perfect example. they took a "eh" codex and turned it into "thats not too bad" it's not a game winning broken combo no, but CSMs are now in a comfortable place"

tag8833 wrote:

So many obvious flaws. If your house is on fire, you wouldn't want someone to walk up and light your car on fire as well. Sure, the car burning might not be as bad as the house burning, but it is still really, really bad.

Bad analogy. A better one would be that everyone has paid the same amount of money for a house in the same neighborhood, but some people's houses are way nicer than other people's. That's not good, but at the end of the day, everyone still has a house.

tag8833 wrote:
There are 3 core reasons why free points are bad for the game in a competitive sense.
1) GW's design philosophy has been so wildly inconsistent that free points are poorly distributed, and not well thought through.
2) It creates uber builds limiting army diversity. This is especially bad for competitive play, and especially true for marines and ad mech.
3) It devalues points, and is an intentional effort to avoid balancing the game.

And one big one that some competitive players might object to.
4) It destroys the fluff of the game. eg. Gladius turns space marines into a disposable hoard army.

1: GW's design philosophy has always been wildly inconsistent and created imbalances that were bad for the game in a competitive sense. Their game design didn't suddenly switch from competent to incompetent when they introduced the free-stuff-granting detachments.

2: Tournament play has always been dominated by uber-builds limiting arm diversity. Again, nothing new. Getting rid of Gladius-style detachments won't change that.

3: The importance of points has always been somewhat devalued, due to GW's never having been competent at game design in the first place. There have always been wildly overpowered units in the game. Still are. Case in point: Wraithknight. Getting rid of the Gladius doesn't fix that either. It would just force Marine players to either play Superfriends or spam grav-Cents in order to be competitive.

4: I agree that Gladius builds tend to turn Marines into a horde army, but the structure of 3 Tacs, 1 Dev, and 1 Assault Squad is portrayed in the fluff as the most common fighting force Marine chapters field. So, the structure isn't unfluffy at all. What's unfluffy is a game environment that requires Marine players to MSU-spam in order to be competitive. If you want to get rid of Gladius, then in all fairness there are a lot of things in a lot of other armies that need a hard looking at. Otherwise, you're not really concerned about game balance, you're just anti-Marine.

tag8833 wrote:
Let me posit this. As a competitive player. What would you prefer?
Scenario A. is a wildly inconsistent rule-set that limits competitive builds, limits army diversity, devalues the skill of list building, and encourages unfluffy play-styles
or
Scenario B. A consistent rule-set with relatively balanced rules which open up many different competitive builds, reward skilled list builders, and encourage fluffier games?

Obviously, everyone would prefer Scenario B. However, you're creating a false either-or scenario, when in reality there is at least a Scenario C.

Scenario C: As Scenario A, but not all armies have a build that can hold its own in competitive play.

Obviously, the current environment is Scenario C, as Ork, DE, IG, and Nid players can attest to. Take away the Gladius without doing a major cleanup of the overpowered drek in the top-tier armies, and you push single-source Marine players down there too.

I'm a Dark Angels player. The Lion's Blade detachment (the DA version of the Gladius) gives me a build I can take to tournaments that gives me a decent chance of not being rofl-stomped. Take it away, and I've got nothing. I don't want to use allies because I think armies on the table should have a consistent look to them, and allies just encourages mismatched hodgepodges. I'm not army-hopping, because I'm invested in my army, and I don't have the time or money to buy-build-paint entirely new forces every time the meta changes.

Besides, say what you want about the Gladius, but it at least looks like it could be an actual fighting force, and not a C-grade mecha anime, a low-budget kaiju movie, or a blob of maniacs barely less feral than the predators they're riding around on.

Ferals riding predators?
Not sure I know what army is that in 40k....


In any case, the amounts of strawmen thorwn by the "all free points are evil" side of the road is honestly past the point of no longer being amusing.


In a world where formations granting bonuses exists-having "free points" is no different in nature than having rules added to existing units without granting them any "extra point".
What is the inherit differance between getting more models for the same cost than getting your existing models stronger? there isn't any, the only question is how well you balance the "more powerful" compared to "free stuff", compared to others of their own category, and compared to the difficulty of achiving the bonus compared to the benefits.


Formations, and a whole, are a GOOD thing. they create actual rational fighting forces, often with inherit unit synergies you can't have on the slates themselves.
Any attempt to claim otherwise is absurd, we all know the CAD days were utter nonsense of "take the least tax HQ and troop you can find, then spam your best unit of each slot type"
There was 0 variety or diversity, and most units NEVER saw play.

What's best for the game, is a world where the units are well balanced to begin with, and then on top of it the formations are well balanced between themselves.
That's not anywhere in the ballpark of current reality.

Take the "free wave serpents" for example. that's obviously busted as the WS is freaking 100 point model each and the guardians are cheap as hell. Tha'ts a lousy strawmen-guardians don't cost like marines, and WS is nothing akin to a rhino.
Lets take another example then to counter that?
Lets make a formation that you take 3 units of crisis suits, and they get rerolls to hit and to wound with their guns.
No free points-must be balanced-right? must defiantly not be as good as a formation that givens your crisis suits free shield drones, right?
See how silly the notion that the issue is the "free points"?

I think formations could be good but it seems the weakest armies don't get very good ones while the stronger armies get great ones and the imperium gets absolutely amazing ones because of course they do. honestly I have no desire to play my weak orks against a space marines army bringing an extra 2-400 points to the table with tons of special snowflake rules so that the can have "space marines better represented to the power level they are in the fluff"

Free transports are the only way Tactical Squads are worth their points. Gladius should probably be limited to just giving Tactical Squads free Transports. War Convocation is all the way on the side of ridiculous though.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
1: GW's design philosophy has always been wildly inconsistent and created imbalances that were bad for the game in a competitive sense. Their game design didn't suddenly switch from competent to incompetent when they introduced the free-stuff-granting detachments.

Has it always been this bad? Because I've played the game for years now, and can't remember a time where it was this inconsistent. Adding formations add another modifier to the list, and thus increase the consequences of inconsistency dramatically.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
2: Tournament play has always been dominated by uber-builds limiting arm diversity. Again, nothing new. Getting rid of Gladius-style detachments won't change that.

It most certainly would. How many space marine lists do you see at competitive GT's that don't use a gladius? How Many would you see if Gladius wasn't an option? Because it is an uber build where GW does the list design for you, there is far more conformity from one space Marine list to another. Look at Ork lists as an example. Orks have very, very few viable units, and even fewer useful formations, and yet Orks lists at tournaments are much, much more diverse than Space Marines.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
4: I agree that Gladius builds tend to turn Marines into a horde army, but the structure of 3 Tacs, 1 Dev, and 1 Assault Squad is portrayed in the fluff as the most common fighting force Marine chapters field. So, the structure isn't unfluffy at all. What's unfluffy is a game environment that requires Marine players to MSU-spam in order to be competitive. If you want to get rid of Gladius, then in all fairness there are a lot of things in a lot of other armies that need a hard looking at. Otherwise, you're not really concerned about game balance, you're just anti-Marine.

I agree 100%. Getting rid of Free points based formations doesn't fix everything, and it should definitely be followed up asap by addressing other problems. From my point of view Formations are an inherently bad thing for competitive play. I think modern "Competitive" play has become parody by the attempt to mimic apoc in the form of Formations, and Super Heavies without a corresponding apoc points level. When you think of all of the problems of the game, how many of them come from formations and Super Heavies? 70%? 90%? The 1st step to establishing a more competitive environment is to get rid of all formations and super heavies from competitive play.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Obviously, the current environment is Scenario C, as Ork, DE, IG, and Nid players can attest to. Take away the Gladius without doing a major cleanup of the overpowered drek in the top-tier armies, and you push single-source Marine players down there too.

I'm a Dark Angels player. The Lion's Blade detachment (the DA version of the Gladius) gives me a build I can take to tournaments that gives me a decent chance of not being rofl-stomped. Take it away, and I've got nothing. I don't want to use allies because I think armies on the table should have a consistent look to them, and allies just encourages mismatched hodgepodges. I'm not army-hopping, because I'm invested in my army, and I don't have the time or money to buy-build-paint entirely new forces every time the meta changes.

Yeah, I get that. In 2016 every single competitive event I attended I did so with Orks, and Tyranids. I cracked the ITC top 10 for a 2 week period having played nothing but Orks. I'm not a meta chaser, and prefer the challenge of playing in a unique way, and showing that I'm not just netlisting or following in other people's footsteps. That I earned my placement based on my own merits. I think formations, and especially uberbuild formations like Gladius and War Convo are terrible for competitive play, because they rely on GW to write most of the list for you. If you win a game with one of those formations, how much credit goes to your merits, and how much to GW's Incompetence, or their skill in writing lists for you? I can't bring myself to feel that cheated out of credit for my wins.

This season I'm starting out with Militarum Tempestus. It lets me play 40K my way, and claim the spoils of my victory without shame, but the tournament scenes insistence on Apoc or bust, and GW's Staggering Drunk style rules writing their way into the 40K endtimes have left me feeling quite melancholy about the game. There doesn't seem to be a place for me in the mockery of competition that we call "Competitive 40K". So maybe it is time for me to take a season off. It's a shame, because the state of 40K could be good if we fixed army comp, and the psychic phase. Warp Spiders would still be nuts, but 1 or 2 crazy thing would be so much better than this dumpster fire.