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 Frazzled wrote:
Any linkage to this guy?

We won't know of any links to this guy until the CS police dept releases more information. It might not even come out until trial.

So, here's an important question: how many people would be making excuses and giving him the benefit of the doubt if he were Muslim instead of Christian? How many people would be arguing over the fine points of what is and isn't "terrorism" or insisting on indisputable proof of association with terrorist organizations instead of arguing that similar ideology and inspiration are sufficient?

 Peregrine wrote:
So, here's an important question: how many people would be making excuses and giving him the benefit of the doubt if he were Muslim instead of Christian? How many people would be arguing over the fine points of what is and isn't "terrorism" or insisting on indisputable proof of association with terrorist organizations instead of arguing that similar ideology and inspiration are sufficient?

Have you not realized this is a white man? Clearly, we're going to need to meet a burden of proof at least equivalent to what Dave Chappelle needed to believe it was R. Kelly on that tape.

 Peregrine wrote:
So, here's an important question: how many people would be making excuses and giving him the benefit of the doubt if he were Muslim instead of Christian? How many people would be arguing over the fine points of what is and isn't "terrorism" or insisting on indisputable proof of association with terrorist organizations instead of arguing that similar ideology and inspiration are sufficient?

Thats the main point of amazement I have reading this thread, there wouldnt be as many roadblocks, deflections and moving of goal posts if this person were a Muslim terrorists. He wouldnt have his own Dakka defense league

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So, here's an important question: how many people would be making excuses and giving him the benefit of the doubt if he were Muslim instead of Christian? How many people would be arguing over the fine points of what is and isn't "terrorism" or insisting on indisputable proof of association with terrorist organizations instead of arguing that similar ideology and inspiration are sufficient?

Thats the main point of amazement I have reading this thread, there wouldnt be as many roadblocks, deflections and moving of goal posts if this person were a Muslim terrorists. He wouldnt have his own Dakka defense league

Who's defending this guy?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So, here's an important question: how many people would be making excuses and giving him the benefit of the doubt if he were Muslim instead of Christian? How many people would be arguing over the fine points of what is and isn't "terrorism" or insisting on indisputable proof of association with terrorist organizations instead of arguing that similar ideology and inspiration are sufficient?

Thats the main point of amazement I have reading this thread, there wouldnt be as many roadblocks, deflections and moving of goal posts if this person were a Muslim terrorists. He wouldnt have his own Dakka defense league

I don't know about that. Did you see the last few threads on Muslim terrorists here on Dakka? There were plenty of people claiming that they were just loons and them being Muslim was a coincidence.

 whembly wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So, here's an important question: how many people would be making excuses and giving him the benefit of the doubt if he were Muslim instead of Christian? How many people would be arguing over the fine points of what is and isn't "terrorism" or insisting on indisputable proof of association with terrorist organizations instead of arguing that similar ideology and inspiration are sufficient?

Thats the main point of amazement I have reading this thread, there wouldnt be as many roadblocks, deflections and moving of goal posts if this person were a Muslim terrorists. He wouldnt have his own Dakka defense league

Who's defending this guy?

There were 2 pages of OgreChubbs justifying / rationalizing his actions. If you didn't see them, you didn't miss much.

 Peregrine wrote:
So, here's an important question: how many people would be making excuses and giving him the benefit of the doubt if he were Muslim instead of Christian? How many people would be arguing over the fine points of what is and isn't "terrorism" or insisting on indisputable proof of association with terrorist organizations instead of arguing that similar ideology and inspiration are sufficient?

1. Did he shout out "Die for Jesus!" If not you need something called "proof."
2. Who's making excuses or giving him the benefit of the doubt? Has anyone on this thread said anything other than persecute him to the fullest extent of the law? (I'm assuming if found sane)
Is anyone saying not to investigate his background fully to see if others were involved?

Its a lot easier to say "yep thats an islamofascist terrorist" when they are on the internet cutting off the heads of disbelievers and gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So, here's an important question: how many people would be making excuses and giving him the benefit of the doubt if he were Muslim instead of Christian? How many people would be arguing over the fine points of what is and isn't "terrorism" or insisting on indisputable proof of association with terrorist organizations instead of arguing that similar ideology and inspiration are sufficient?

Thats the main point of amazement I have reading this thread, there wouldnt be as many roadblocks, deflections and moving of goal posts if this person were a Muslim terrorists. He wouldnt have his own Dakka defense league

Who's defending this guy?

Evidently, not assuming there is a vast Christian Conspiracy is defending him. WTF?

 Ouze wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So, here's an important question: how many people would be making excuses and giving him the benefit of the doubt if he were Muslim instead of Christian? How many people would be arguing over the fine points of what is and isn't "terrorism" or insisting on indisputable proof of association with terrorist organizations instead of arguing that similar ideology and inspiration are sufficient?

Thats the main point of amazement I have reading this thread, there wouldnt be as many roadblocks, deflections and moving of goal posts if this person were a Muslim terrorists. He wouldnt have his own Dakka defense league

Who's defending this guy?

There were 2 pages of OgreChubbs justifying / rationalizing his actions. If you didn't see them, you didn't miss much.

After I posted that, I read from the beginning. (I tend to stay away from discussing the abortion topic directly as my opposition is known on this site).

I unequivocally denounce any defense what the shooter has done.

Not sure how this paints the idea that had this shooter been of islamic faith, that we would be denouncing the entire faith (as some in this thread is trying to denounce Christianity).

There were 2 pages of OgreChubbs justifying / rationalizing his actions. If you didn't see them, you didn't miss much.

In this thread? I'll have to check again.

Edit: I thought that was sarcasm initially. I can only agree and facepalm in sympathy.

 Frazzled wrote:
1. Did he shout out "Die for Jesus!" If not you need something called "proof."

This is exactly what I mean: we have a guy committing a crime that looks very much like previous incidents of Christian terrorism, but we hear demands to wait for more proof before applying the label. If this was a Muslim guy who murdered an anti-Muslim cartoonist would we be insisting on verifying that he said "DIE FOR ALLAH!", or would we just call him a terrorist?

2. Who's making excuses or giving him the benefit of the doubt? Has anyone on this thread said anything other than persecute him to the fullest extent of the law? (I'm assuming if found sane)
Is anyone saying not to investigate his background fully to see if others were involved?

Yes, people are saying that we should prosecute him. But they're insisting that we treat this as an isolated incident of murder, not terrorism. The excuses and benefit of the doubt are about how we put this incident into a larger context and how much blame far-right Christianity deserves, not whether this one guy should spend the rest of his (soon to be short) life in prison.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
1. Did he shout out "Die for Jesus!" If not you need something called "proof."

This is exactly what I mean: we have a guy committing a crime that looks very much like previous incidents of Christian terrorism, but we hear demands to wait for more proof before applying the label. If this was a Muslim guy who murdered an anti-Muslim cartoonist would we be insisting on verifying that he said "DIE FOR ALLAH!", or would we just call him a terrorist?

2. Who's making excuses or giving him the benefit of the doubt? Has anyone on this thread said anything other than persecute him to the fullest extent of the law? (I'm assuming if found sane)
Is anyone saying not to investigate his background fully to see if others were involved?

Yes, people are saying that we should prosecute him. But they're insisting that we treat this as an isolated incident of murder, not terrorism. The excuses and benefit of the doubt are about how we put this incident into a larger context and how much blame far-right Christianity deserves, not whether this one guy should spend the rest of his (soon to be short) life in prison.

I think you're getting hung up on terminologies...

What they all have in common is that they're insane.

I think the goal posts being moved is that extremism exists in Chrisitianity, Islam, Atheism, and others...

I guess the arguments stems from how much of an issue is this 'extremism' exists between these groups.

Yes, people are saying that we should prosecute him. But they're insisting that we treat this as an isolated incident of murder, not terrorism. The excuses and benefit of the doubt are about how we put this incident into a larger context and how much blame far-right Christianity deserves, not whether this one guy should spend the rest of his (soon to be short) life in prison.

To quote our next President, what difference does it make?
You can't impugn an entire group's speech because of someone else. ok you can is Commie Land* but nowhere else in the US. next thing you'll be putting them into camps in California just because of how they look.








*US universities

 Frazzled wrote:

There were 2 pages of OgreChubbs justifying / rationalizing his actions. If you didn't see them, you didn't miss much.

con this thread? I'll have to check again.

pg 3

OgreChubbs wrote:
Not sure why everyone is so mad. He is just a doctor preforming late term abortions. Couple months couple years whats the difference.

he compared the shooter to a doctor just performing an abortion.

why are you acting so surprised people are defending this guy, when you said you found others on a different site defending the guy.

and army of god did more than just the anthrax letters. There was also eric rudolph:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph
Eric Robert Rudolph (born September 19, 1966), also known as the Olympic Park Bomber, is an American terrorist responsible for a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay-motivated bombings across the southern United States between 1996 and 1998, which killed two people and injured over 120 others.
FBI investigators believed Rudolph may have written letters that claimed responsibility for the nightclub and abortion clinic bombings on behalf of the Army of God, a group that sanctions the use of force to combat abortions and is associated with Christian Identity.

now lets try some statistics,

If Every clinic bombed or burned, and every clinician assaulted or killed, had been previously picketed, targeted or assailed by antiabortion groups like Operation Rescue and the Army of God. Operation Rescue issued “Wanted” posters of abortion providers, often listing their home addresses. Several of the doctors listed on the posters, including David Gunn, George Patterson, John Britton and George Tiller, were killed by antiabortion zealots.

then there's a 100% chance the shooter has some association with one of those groups.

sirlynchmob wrote:

then there's a 100% chance the shooter has some association with one of those groups.

Objection your honor... this is nothing more than pure speculation.

 whembly wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

then there's a 100% chance the shooter has some association with one of those groups.

Objection your honor... this is nothing more than pure speculation.

playing the odds.

I guess I see a guy like Nidal Hassan who sought out radical clerics and was radicalized (and being investigated for the FBI for it prior to his spree), was known to defend radical brands of Islam, and who was shouting Allahhu Akbar as he gunned down folks, and then during his pre-trial incarceration demanded concessions to his Islamic faith and had been 'sane' enough to be on active duty, I have no problem saying 'Yep, Islamic terrorism'.

In this case, we have a guy who seemed off his rocker, and has not declared a motive (yet), has no known (yet) associations with some radical Christian pastors, it makes me not want to immediately call it Jesus inspired terrorism... I'll wait until we know more.

If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it.

Thats not how you do statistics...

he compared the shooter to a doctor just performing an abortion.

why are you acting so surprised people are defending this guy, when you said you found others on a different site defending the guy.

Indeed, note the EDIT including the great one that is Godzilla.

and army of god did more than just the anthrax letters. There was also eric rudolph:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph
Eric Robert Rudolph (born September 19, 1966), also known as the Olympic Park Bomber, is an American terrorist responsible for a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay-motivated bombings across the southern United States between 1996 and 1998, which killed two people and injured over 120 others.
FBI investigators believed Rudolph may have written letters that claimed responsibility for the nightclub and abortion clinic bombings on behalf of the Army of God, a group that sanctions the use of force to combat abortions and is associated with Christian Identity.

Ok that is helpful. I am sure the FBI would get them if they could get evidence sufficient for RICO or other organized crime/terrorism statutes. They live for that gak.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
1. Did he shout out "Die for Jesus!" If not you need something called "proof."

This is exactly what I mean: we have a guy committing a crime that looks very much like previous incidents of Christian terrorism, but we hear demands to wait for more proof before applying the label. If this was a Muslim guy who murdered an anti-Muslim cartoonist would we be insisting on verifying that he said "DIE FOR ALLAH!", or would we just call him a terrorist?

2. Who's making excuses or giving him the benefit of the doubt? Has anyone on this thread said anything other than persecute him to the fullest extent of the law? (I'm assuming if found sane)
Is anyone saying not to investigate his background fully to see if others were involved?

Yes, people are saying that we should prosecute him. But they're insisting that we treat this as an isolated incident of murder, not terrorism. The excuses and benefit of the doubt are about how we put this incident into a larger context and how much blame far-right Christianity deserves, not whether this one guy should spend the rest of his (soon to be short) life in prison.

When there is scant information linking a crime to Islamic terrorism I think you see in the threads about the event calls for people to wait for more information before ascribing Islamic terrorism as the motivation behind the crime. In instances where there is clear evidence of the involvement of Wahabbist terrorist groups there is no point in denying it. There are only 2 pieces of evidence that point to a possible link to Christian terrorism in this instance: 1) The gunman said the phrase "no more baby parts" when being taken into custody but the police themselves issued a statement that there wasn't enough context to the phrase to make it clear that it was the motivation behind the attacks 2) the shootout took place at a Planned Parenthood clinic.

Since we all know correlation =/= causation we can't say with any certainty that the location guarantees Christian motivations. Just like the location of any other crime/terrorist act doesn't guarantee the involvement of Wahabbists or any other religious terrorist group.

What you get in these threads is push back against people who claim terrorist links for crimes which contradict the statements the investigating authorities issue declaring that there hasn't been enough information collected yet to determine a motive. When people claim Islamic links prior to any clear evidence of Islamic influence or in contradiction to official statements you see the same push back.

Waiting until the investigations are concluded and more information is made public before rushing to judgment as to the particular motivation and group connections behind terroristic crimes is a good thing, regardless of the identity/affiliations of the victims or attackers.

Its just that sort of logic and even handed posting that has no place here.

sirlynchmob wrote:
so we're just going to ignore the "army of god" then? That group I keep bringing up, the group responsible for all the attacks on clinics. Just assume the shooter was a lone wolf, and let this terrorist group attack again without ever bother to ask if there's a connection.

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=us_domestic_terrorism_tmln&haitian_elite_2021_organizations=haitian_elite_2021_army_of_god
"An anonymous member (or members) of the Army of God (see 1982, August 1982, and July 1988) produces the “Army of God Manual,” a privately printed, closely guarded “how-to” manual for activists, showing how to harass, attack, and even kill abortion providers. "

http://www.trackingterrorism.org/group/army-god-aog-united-states
The Army of God is an underground network of domestic terrorists who believe that the use of violence is appropriate and acceptable as a means to end abortion. Army of God members have been involved in highly publicized incidents of terrorism including the Atlanta Olympic bombing, and the bombings of an abortion clinic and a gay bar in Atlanta. VideoVideo: HBO Documentary

And this perpetrator was a member of this group?

sirlynchmob wrote:
sorry frazz, they're real, and they're christians, don't let that stop your denials though. just circumstantial evidence so far, as long as he doesn't "mysteriously" die while in custody let's hope the lawyers bother to ask, let's hope the investigators bother to ask.

you can check out their web site
http://www.armyofgod.com/

their wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_%28United_States%29

there's an HBO documentary about them, can't find a link to the video though, but I've seen multiple references to it:
http://watchdocumentary.org/watch/soldiers-in-the-army-of-god-video_224259994.html
the link doesn't work in canada, it might work for you.


https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terror/terrorism-2000-2001
more here: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/army-of-god-anthrax-threats/

Spoiler:

Between October 15 and October 17, 2001, Waagner allegedly mailed more than 300 anthrax threat letters to reproductive health clinics on the East Coast. The envelopes, marked “Time Sensitive” and “Urgent Security Notice Enclosed,” bore the return addresses of the U.S. Marshals Service and the U.S. Secret Service. The letters, signed “Army of God-Virginia Dare Cell,” contained a white powdery substance that tested negative for anthrax. Between November 5 and November 8, 2001, a second wave of anthrax threat letters, again signed “Army of God - Virginia Dare Cell,” were mailed to reproductive health clinics. In addition, bomb threats were telephoned to businesses located in the buildings that house the national headquarters of Planned Parenthood and the National Abortion Federation. After his arrest on December 5, 2001, Waagner indicated to investigators that he was in the process of preparing a third wave of fabricated anthrax threat letters to abortion providers. Waagner also stated that he intended to place the pipe bomb recovered from the vehicle in Memphis at a local Planned Parenthood office.

Waagner is believed to have committed several bank robberies to support his illegal anti-abortion activities and his fugitive status. By year’s end, he had been formally charged with two: the May 17, 2001 robbery of a bank in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the November 9, 2001 robbery of a bank in Morgantown, West Virginia. Each of these robberies has been designated as an act of domestic terrorism.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Prestor Jon wrote:


Nobody in this thread has denied the existence of the Army of God group, that's a straw man of your own fabrication.

You have also failed to put forward any evidence whatsoever that this particular crime is linked to Army of God in any way. You have only put forth your subjective opinion that any and all crimes against PP clinics must be attributable to Army of God or an associated group.

because every one to date has been. but feel free to ignore that and keep pretending he's a "lone wolf" who out of the blue left his cabin and decided to attack a PP clinic just for the giggles that day.[

So you have some evidence that he was acting as part of a wider group then? If so I encourage you to share it with law enforcement to prevent any more coordinated attacks

The link to the FBI only mentions a Virginia based group that made hoax anthrax alerts in 2001. So the modus operandi does not match, neither does the locale.

 Peregrine wrote:
So, here's an important question: how many people would be making excuses and giving him the benefit of the doubt if he were Muslim instead of Christian? How many people would be arguing over the fine points of what is and isn't "terrorism" or insisting on indisputable proof of association with terrorist organizations instead of arguing that similar ideology and inspiration are sufficient?

Did he shout the Christian equivalent of "Allah Akbar!!" as he conducted these attacks?
Did a far right Christian terrorist group claim responsibility for these attacks?
Did he follow a well known pattern of attack previously used by right wing Christian terror groups?
Was his choice of target one that was traditionally attacked by right wing terrorist groups? (please note not a single PP staff member was harmed during this incident)

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

1. Did he shout the Christian equivalent of "Allah Akbar!!" as he conducted these attacks?
2. Did a far right Christian terrorist group claim responsibility for these attacks?
3. Did he follow a well known pattern of attack previously used by right wing Christian terror groups?
4. Was his choice of target one that was traditionally attacked by right wing terrorist groups? (please note not a single PP staff member was harmed during this incident)

1. yes he shouted no more body parts, a christian phrase used against PP, which was referenced by all the republican candidates.
2. no
3. yes
4. yes, he still attacked a PP clinic, and killed 3 people and wounded 9 more. He was also stopped before he made use of the propane tanks he had.

As someone who lives in said town, I just want to point out: whether this guy was a Muslim, Jew, Christian, or just some fething crazy asshat, it's really upsetting that as soon as this tragedy is resolved, everyone starts leaping to ploitics, using this as an example for gun control, Syrian refugees, what have you.

Those were people who were hurt or killed. The cop who was killed went to my Alma Mater, and my coworker knew him.

Just something I wish people would take into consideration before using this as evidence for any political motivations.

 jreilly89 wrote:
As someone who lives in said town, I just want to point out: whether this guy was a Muslim, Jew, Christian, or just some fething crazy asshat, it's really upsetting that as soon as this tragedy is resolved, everyone starts leaping to ploitics, using this as an example for gun control, Syrian refugees, what have you.

Those were people who were hurt or killed. The cop who was killed went to my Alma Mater, and my coworker knew him.

Just something I wish people would take into consideration before using this as evidence for any political motivations.

Indeed.

sirlynchmob wrote:
he shouted no more body parts, a christian phrase used against PP

As a Christian, I can't say I'm familiar with this particular Christian phrase. Perhaps I need to read my Bible more often.

 Alex C wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
he shouted no more body parts, a christian phrase used against PP

As a Christian, I can't say I'm familiar with this particular Christian phrase. Perhaps I need to read my Bible more often.

Its usually found in the Old Testament, concerning unkosher meat. When translated it literally reads "and thou shalt not eat the beaks of chickens nor the hoofs of pigs nor other crappy ass processed American food made from body parts and other gak, and verily. What are you a goyam for crying out loud? Do you hate your heart and your liver?"

 Frazzled wrote:

 Alex C wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
he shouted no more body parts, a christian phrase used against PP

As a Christian, I can't say I'm familiar with this particular Christian phrase. Perhaps I need to read my Bible more often.

Its usually found in the Old Testament, concerning unkosher meat. When translated it literally reads "and thou shalt not eat the beaks of chickens nor the hoofs of pigs nor other crappy ass processed American food made from body parts and other gak, and verily. What are you a goyam for crying out loud? Do you hate your heart and your liver?"

Straight out of Frazzliticus

 jreilly89 wrote:
As someone who lives in said town, I just want to point out: whether this guy was a Muslim, Jew, Christian, or just some fething crazy asshat, it's really upsetting that as soon as this tragedy is resolved, everyone starts leaping to ploitics, using this as an example for gun control, Syrian refugees, what have you.

Those were people who were hurt or killed. The cop who was killed went to my Alma Mater, and my coworker knew him.

Just something I wish people would take into consideration before using this as evidence for any political motivations.

I honestly don't know what else we're supposed to do - or what you expect us to do. This is the internet. This is Dakka Dakka - a forum devoted to plastic army men, and you're in the OT section, where current events and political threads are prominent. As such, we discuss such things, and where we have an issue that includes aspects of someone owning a firearm who maybe shouldn't have, who possibly is a terrorist, and who is possibly inspired by very recent political rhetoric - that's where the discussion is naturally going to flow. I'm not trying to be insensitive: what exactly is the behavior you'd find more appropriate? No one is laughing or making light of the events that unfolded.

sirlynchmob wrote:

1. yes he shouted no more body parts, a christian phrase used against PP, which was referenced by all the republican candidates.
2. no
3. yes
4. yes, he still attacked a PP clinic, and killed 3 people and wounded 9 more. He was also stopped before he made use of the propane tanks he had.

He did not shout it;
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/28/us/colorado-planned-parenthood-shooting/

Robert Lewis Dear, the suspect in Friday's shootings at the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, mentioned "baby parts" to investigators and in later interviews expressed anti-abortion and anti-government views, a law enforcement official briefed on the investigation told CNN.

We have had a well known pattern of attacks by people going into PP and not killing their staff? Which incidents in the past and by which terrorist group exactly?

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3234852-155/active-shooter-at-colorado-planned-parenthood

Police saw a propane tank at the clinic, but officers do not know whether the suspect brought that to the clinic.

He killed 3 people. None of which were PP staff.

At this point you are giving the impression that you are desperately trying to make facts fit your argument.

And how do we know he wasn't targeting staff? There were 3 people killed but 9 people wounded.

Who are these 9 other people you're conveniently ignoring? At least 2 others are cops we know.

I'm not inclined to believe his location of choice is a coincidence as all of your arguments are inferring.

PP locations have a history as targets of violence, between bombings, arson, and other shootings.