Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Not sure this is the correct forum but what the hey. A discussion between me and a friend arose when he said Kharn the Betrayer overrides the Deceivers special rule Dread. When an enemy assualts they pass a leadership test or hit on 6's for that turn. He said Kharn always hit on 2's therefore bypassing the Deciever. Ignoring that Kharn maybe fearless (don't own a Chaos codex) who wins in situations like this?

phantommaster wrote:Not sure this is the correct forum but what the hey. A discussion between me and a friend arose when he said Kharn the Betrayer overrides the Deceivers special rule Dread. When an enemy assualts they pass a leadership test or hit on 6's for that turn. He said Kharn always hit on 2's therefore bypassing the Deciever. Ignoring that Kharn maybe fearless (don't own a Chaos codex) who wins in situations like this?

Neither wins, and the game breaks.

Also, fearless doesn't help against Ld tests.

I would say that if he passes, he gets to hit on 2s if he fails, he hits on a 6, if I had to house rule it.

So Gwar, you are saying that the Deceiver takes priority over Kharn.

jbunny wrote:So Gwar, you are saying that the Deceiver takes priority over Kharn.

No, that is not what I am saying at all.

I am saying that should the situation ever arise, I would House Rule it in favour of the Deceiver, simply because the Necron Player needs all the help he can get.

So while not stating RAW, you are saying in your opinion the Necron rule wins.

He's saying with RAW, the game breaks due to contradiction. He gave a suggestion for a House Rule so you can continue the game, unbroken. I think the ruling is fair too.

jbunny wrote:So while not stating RAW, you are saying in your opinion the Necron rule wins.

No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying that, given the choice between a coin toss and taking pity on the Necron player, he'd take pity on the Necron player.

jbunny wrote:So while not stating RAW, you are saying in your opinion the Necron rule wins.

See the kind of things I have to deal with? It might just be the Textual Medium, but I am getting a very strong "Passive Aggressive Troll that will try and use the answer out of context at some later stage to attack me" vibe from that post.

No, I am not saying In my Opinion the Necron Rule wins.

In my Opinion the game breaks and we all divide by Zero. It so happens my opinion is supported by the rules.

However IF THIS EVER HAPPENED (which It won't that often tbh, both Khârn and C'Tan are just terrible), I would let the Deceivers power win, because as codexes go, Necrons are a hell of a lot worse than even the abortion that it 4th ed Chaos.

I would just like to point out that being fearless has 0 effect on the test required to assault c'tan as fearless only affects morale and pinning tests, not leadership tests which are different.

Plus, doesn't the rule for Kharn state he hits on a 2 regardless of the WS of the enemy? If so, the leadership roll required is not affecting the WS of the model it is forcing a change to the requirement needed. So yes, Kharn also hits on a 2+ regardless of WS but the c'tan force the leadership test to be made and then if failed the requirement to hit is changed to 6, the WS does not change on the model.

Not trolling. Just trying to get you to clearify your stance.

You stated that if Kharn passes his leadership test he gets to hit on 2's. Otherwise he hit's on 6's. Which is the same as saying Deciver wins out.

You provided no logic as to why this is, at least not in your first post.

jbunny wrote:Not trolling. Just trying to get you to clearify your stance.

You stated that if Kharn passes his leadership test he gets to hit on 2's. Otherwise he hit's on 6's. Which is the same as saying Deciver wins out.

You provided no logic as to why this is, at least not in your first post.

Who are you referring to?

Gwar

Does anyone actually still plays Necrons?

and NOT play the nightbringer?

...wow

I think I'd pitty the Necron player too.

Given Kharn's ld of 10.....

Augustus wrote:Does anyone actually still plays Necrons?

and NOT play the nightbringer?

...wow

I think I'd pitty the Necron player too.

I do. And rarely field any c'tan.

OK

With 5 ed assault rules I haven't seen a Necron army in a store for about a year.

I have one in my stable but I seldom bother.

as codexes go, Necrons are a hell of a lot worse

Augustus wrote:OK

With 5 ed assault rules I haven't seen a Necron army in a store for about a year.

I have one in my stable but I seldom bother.

as codexes go, Necrons are a hell of a lot worse

Funny. I even play against my buddies black templar most of the time (a very assault friendly army) and we're still pretty even on win/loss against each other.

I think there was a little bit of precedent for going in favor of Kharn on this one: the example of Tyranid lash whips vs. Banshee masks if I'm not mistaken hashed out that certain things are 'always on' and aren't overridden by other powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd like to think of Kharn's eternal hatred and Blood God nurtured rage as being worth something here. He is fighting a living god but the man's the champion of a chaos god...

Slackermagee wrote:I think there was a little bit of precedent for going in favor of Kharn on this one: the example of Tyranid lash whips vs. Banshee masks if I'm not mistaken hashed out that certain things are 'always on' and aren't overridden by other powers.

Yes, Please point out where these can be found in the Chaos, Necron and/or Rulebook Errata please.

And Living GOD > Pawn of GOD.

I'd have to agree that the 2 rules break the game and according to the rulebook the only solution is to dice off for it or house rule. If I had to house rule it I'd say they cancel out assuming the conditional for the C'tan's ability was met. Pretty simple case of exact and opposite effects and usually GW rules they cancel.

Problem with using the Lash Whip/Banshee mask example is that GW provided no guidance as to what ability trumps the other so you can't use that example to extrapolate other rulings even if they're similar. GW really should put a rule in saying "Hey there's gonna be some stuff in codices that do opposite stuff, if you see something like that they just cancel". That would clear up about 90% of the arguments on forums.

Or hell we can stop trying to use an FAQ for one Codex to figure out what is going to happen with rules from other ones since they all have different rules/ wargear and unless they are identical in each codex then it does not really matter what the FAQ anwser is.

I brought up the same question earlier this year regarding another necron Unit(Flayed ones) and their Similar rule(terrifying Visage) vs the Space wolf Wolf tooth Necklace.

The general consensus we reached here on dakka was that the more restrictive rule wins out. Wolf Tooth Necklace(and Kharn) are always "on" but terrifying Visage and Deceivers Dread both require a Ld test to function. Therefore in order for the game not to break; if the Ld test is passed your model strikes at his specified value. If the Ld is failed it is 6's to hit.

This also works as a sort of in-built Dice-off; score Ld or lower on 2d6 you get your rule; score above it you get the other rule.

I'm basically thinking "Unstoppable Force Vs. Immovable Object."

Simplified, it's a bit like having a special attack which ignores every save of every kind, going up against a special save which can never be negated.

Rather than house-ruling, I'd just roll-off to see who gets priority each time this issue crops up!