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As a marine player, I've read into the Horus heresy. All that I have read is from the point of view of the Emperor, and his loyal legions. What my question is, whats in it for chaos? Why convert to evil? A very bland question, but I don't really want a bland answer. I'm hoping some of you can breath life into the other side of the story for me, ignite my imagination.

For the most part, they were tricked, duped, corrupted and/or possessed.

So, yeah, they got screwed, and so did the rest of the galaxy!

I like to think that one of the reason that SUSTAINS the traitor legions is that they understand that the emperor is just another warp entity and as such is merely a competitor for the chaos gods who most of them now serve.

Horus felt abandoned when the Emperor left for Terra. Like the Emperor no longer wanted to be part of the Crusade.

Then he started feeling entitled and arrogant. Liked the taste of the power he had. He wanted more.

Then the Word Bearers started whispering about how Daddy din't love him anymore, and wanted Horus to do all the work.
Basically played on insecurities that Horus had, and fed his needs for attention.

Then Horus was injured and inducted into dark rituals.

I don't think it was a "I'm evil today" decision. More of a slow slide from Paragon to selfishness, and finally to evil.

Yea. After a battle where Horus was injured he was sent to a warrior lodge to heal. Soon after he began to change and it was found out the lodge was a secret Chaos coven. It is believed that there is where Horus was first corrupted. And after that it was a matter of him convincing some of the other legions to join him. I got this information from the Luna Wolves page on the lexicanum

The slogan, basically, was that the Emperor was a mere civilian who didn't deserve the galaxy his soldiers had fought and died for - that honour should belong to the leader who was with them through all the worst battles, who led them to glory, Horus the Warmaster. The Emperor had abandoned the Imperium, Humanity, and the Astartes Legions and left rule in the hands of petty bureaucrats.

Also, Power. The life of an Astartes, then and now, is one of duty above all else, total submission to your orders, and free will only in as much as it enables you to complete your mission. Chaos offers power, freedom, independence.

Now, they fight for revenge, domination, and wanton destruction. They're motivated by, variously, insanity, hatred, rage, maliciousness, arrogance, greed, and of course - Spite.

"Pride and defiant hate, spite and harsh oblivion. Let the great jeweled knot of the Cosmos unravel in the dust." - Lorgar

Horus Heresy novels are much more complete.

They show that it was a very gradual thing. The warrior lodge was the culmination of hte work that Erebus had done to turn Horus.

You should read the Horus Heresy Novels. They provide a really good perspective from the opposing side. Helps explain the "why" Horus turned away from the Emperor

Recommend Reading:
Horus Rising & False Gods

I've read False Gods, and am currently trying to locate a copy of Horus Rising. So what I'm getting is when the emperor left, Horus became the man to be in the crusade. So the loyalties of the soldiers are to A. The Emperor who abandoned his own crusade, or B. Horus the mighty warmaster who fights by their side.

Due to injury the already conflicted Horus was corrupted and the loyal men to horus followed suit.

I'd like to know more about why the Emperor left, how was Horus injured, and exactly how did chaos convert Horus? What did they offer horus he didn't already have?

Ah, well... False Gods makes a bit more sense with Horus Rising preceding it...

Horus is actually quite the likeable fellow, even though nowhere near a ditz in the first one. HE's a superhuman being, held in the greatest esteem by his men, idolized by the Imperium and nonetheless he's actually feeling the pressure of command.

That would be why you read novels that are a series in order. Clears up little issues like that.

ChaplainofAmon wrote:I've read False Gods, and am currently trying to locate a copy of Horus Rising. So what I'm getting is when the emperor left, Horus became the man to be in the crusade. So the loyalties of the soldiers are to A. The Emperor who abandoned his own crusade, or B. Horus the mighty warmaster who fights by their side.

Due to injury the already conflicted Horus was corrupted and the loyal men to horus followed suit.

I'd like to know more about why the Emperor left, how was Horus injured, and exactly how did chaos convert Horus? What did they offer horus he didn't already have?

If you read the Horus Heresy series you can see clear flaws behind some of what the Emperor did (eg. Leaving the Crusade without explanation, becoming impersonal, punishing Magus etc.) and you can see the reasons why some Legions turned traitor, often for power, 'justice' or due to being lied to and manipulated.

In response to your question, it's almost definite (Thousand Sons) that the Emperor went to Terra to 'hack' into the Eldar's webway, allowing safe travel to wherever.

Chaos managed to influence Horus through

As you can see, quite a long list. And there's more.

ChaplainofAmon wrote:I've read False Gods, and am currently trying to locate a copy of Horus Rising. So what I'm getting is when the emperor left, Horus became the man to be in the crusade. So the loyalties of the soldiers are to A. The Emperor who abandoned his own crusade, or B. Horus the mighty warmaster who fights by their side.

Due to injury the already conflicted Horus was corrupted and the loyal men to horus followed suit.

I'd like to know more about why the Emperor left, how was Horus injured, and exactly how did chaos convert Horus? What did they offer horus he didn't already have?

Ya, just read read HH books 1 & 3. Unless you just want us to spoil it for you.

ChaplainofAmon wrote: As a marine player, I've read into the Horus heresy. All that I have read is from the point of view of the Emperor, and his loyal legions. What my question is, whats in it for chaos? Why convert to evil? A very bland question, but I don't really want a bland answer. I'm hoping some of you can breath life into the other side of the story for me, ignite my imagination.

Well lets also ask ourselves whats in it for fighting for the Emperor?
I mean from an Imperial Guards men point of view:
"If I fight for the Emperor and we flee we die, if we fight we die, and if we get wounded our health care insurenence wonet work.....But if I fight for Slaanesh the God of Pleasure I get me 40 hot bitches and if I die I go to the warp and have fun there too." You see what I mean?

I guess same thing for Space marines but less complicated.

But most of the Space marine legions were tricked. For example Fulgrim and his legion Emperors Children were kinda triked by Slaanesh that was hiding inside a sword that Fulgrim had. Horus and his legion Luna Wolves also known as Sons of Horus were triked when Horus was wounded by a Nurgle blade and was in a coma and saw visions. But the World Eaters and the Word Bearers join Chaos wishfully beacuse they both wanted power and Logan the primarch of the Word Bearers was pissed of at his father. Magnus the red joined Chaos beacuse he wanted to save his legion from death when the Space Wolves attacked his legion. I actually do not know why the Death Guards betrayed the Emperor perhaps they wanted more strength. The Alpha legion were told by the Cable (I think he is an eldar) to join chaos to even up the sides and make chaos in a way stronger but at the great battle they would all loose, but I think they Cable just wanted them to join chaos beacuse he was tainted or he wanted more chances to make the humans weak and have his revange. Iron Warriors joined Chaos beacuse of there jealousy for the Imperial Fists beacuse they had more glory then they did. The Night Lords Primarch went mad and joined chaos but later he became a man and let an assasin to kill him beacuse of his shame.
Also partly the Dark Angles joind as well, many people will disagree with me on the reason why they joind but I will tell you the reason what I and some of my friends that work at GW also think: Lion El Jhonson (The Primarch of the Dark Angels) left a quarter of his legion back at his home (Beacuse he wanted all the glory) world Caliban while he left on a gloyrious crusade. While Lion El Jhonson was a way the Dark Angles found out that there is chaos taint on there home planet what they also found out is that people from the Imperium were using it which caused infections and make people go Zombie like (Nurgle). This infection almost spread out across the whole planet, luckly the Imperial Guard and the Dark Angels stopped it but they beleived that the whole Imperium was behined all this so they became independent planet and left the Imperium. So Lion El Jhonson decided to pay a visit home. Lion El Jhonson attacked his own men for two resons one is beacuse his legion sort of betrayed the Emperor by becoming independent and two is beacuse Lion El Jhonson didnt want thata anybody would know that there was chaos on his planet so he decided to get rid of the Space marines who knew about it. The last of the surviving traitor Dark Angles had no where to go and the Chaos Gods offered protection to them.

So here you go and I hope my information was help to you. Keep on playing and loving the game (:

A couple of other things.

First, they didn't choose to 'turn evil'. For whatever reasons they chose to side with Horus. They didn't go into it expecting rape, plunder, etc. etc. Horus honestly thought he was doing what was best for humanity, and his legionares believed him. And they didn't think chaos was evil, just an ally/power source to help them in 'liberating' humanity from the dictator/false god/man who abandoned them/dirty civilian.

But chaos corrupts, and in using it they exposed themselves to its corruption, which eventually turned them into the beings they are now.

Secondly, each of the chaos powers has a seductive side to lure in the unsuspecting.

Many Space Marines give up pleasure, beauty, love, and experience. Many regretted that, wanted to taste love/art/whatever again, and Slaanesh promised a way.

Many Space Marines are in constant battle, seeing warfare, personal combat, and personal achievement as the highest virtues, others give into rage to further their combat abilities. Khorn offers a way to rise above the competition, to achieve martial heights and victories beyond anything previously achieved.

Many Space Marines face death every day, lose friends, and fear the day they will no longer be of use to their battle brothers. They are exposed to pain and hardships most can't begin to imagine. They are torn from their family, outcasts from humanity, with no true home. Nurgle offers freedom from pain, freedom from death, love, and acceptance. Those who accept his embrace will never be alone again, be comforted, and need fear no injury.

Many Space Marines seek power, perfection, and knowledge. They wish to be the best, reach new heights, learn new things, gain insight, and mystical power, and the rules of the Imperium hold them back. Tzenich offers knowledge, insight, and hope for a 'better' world.

No one (not insane) chooses to be EVIL, not Hitler, Judah, Stalin, or Horus. As a rule, they feel justified in their decisions, and think they are trying to do what is best.

I love answering background questions. It tickles me pink to read the work of the writers, and then fill in the holes for people who haven't had a chance to read everything yet. It's probably my favorite part of the hobby.

So, first off: Good question.

...


...


...


...tragically, I can't think of a good answer. To be perfectly honest, the Horus Heresy series was supposed to shed some light on this dilemma, but has thus far failed to do so. I would love to see them get a writer who can write the fall of the primarchs and make it believable, but again, they haven't done so. Don't get me wrong, the HH is an awesome series, it gives great insight into the formation of the Imperium, and it adds a bunch to the background of the game. But by and large the primarchs themselves aren't handled well. Pretty much, Abnett is the only guy who is capable. (In my opinion.) So...I can tell you what happened (as far as the author intended) and what happened (as far as what they actually WROTE)

Horus
INTENDED: Horus felt minor feelings of abandonment by the Emperor leaving the progress of the war to him and returning to Earth to hijack the Webway. The Ruinous Powers, in conjunction with Erebus, (who had already turned evil) preyed on these feelings, deepening them, turning Horus on himself until he talked himself out of his own virtues, using his own faults as justification.

WRITTEN: On his own, the most loved and powerful being other than the Emperor, he got an injury and then, while under the influence of hallucinogens, decided to take the word of his fevered hallucinations and some peon from a totally different legion over that of his creator, father, and mentor.

Lorgar
INTENDED: Lorgar wanted to deify the Emperor. When the Emperor rebuked him for this, Lorgar's adoration turned to bitterness, and his zealous vision twisted to see the Emperor as a 'false god' who was leading them all down a selfish path of annihilation. He thus turned his attentions to rebellion.

WRITTEN: Evil...seemed like a good idea at the time?

Alpharius As a side note, written by Dan Abnett. Probably the best handled.
WRITTEN/INTENDED: The Alpha Legion was persuaded by an alien force with enough longevity to understand such things that the Heresy was inevitable. In addition, they became convinced that if Horus WON, his remaining guilt over what he had done would compel him to turn humanity on itself in a never ending series of wars, driving the human race extinct and taking Chaos with it. They made the decision to make the ultimate sacrifice (on behalf of the whole human race) to destroy Chaos forever.

Fulgrim
INTENDED: Fulgrim became obsessed with his inability to access the parts of humanity that makes us (humans) a civilized race: art, beauty, creation, imagination. He focused on this so extensively that he eventually turned (unwittingly) to what he thought was a source of inspiration (Slaanesh). Tragically, his pursuit became what heroin addicts call 'chasing the dragon': a never ending pursuit of a transcendent experience that was always just out of reach. Eventually, he looked back at what he had done and what he had become in the pursuit of this, and by that time, he was already a monster. It was already too late.

WRITTEN: Fulgrim was a great artist, but his low self esteem caused him to always find fault in his own work, and so he picked up this magic telepathic sword that told him it was okay to do evil things, like murder people and make paintings using the victim's bodily fluids. Apparently, finding nothing strange about this AT ALL, Fulgrim went along with it. When he finally realized that the sword was EVIL, he tried to walk away, but he couldn't get over how cool a magic sword was, so he just threw morality to the wind and went to the other side.

Angron
INTENDED: Angron was damaged by his time in the gladiator pits of his homeworld. By the time that the Emperor found him, he was already a seething mass of hate. Bloodshed was all he knew, and all he wanted to know. Perhaps if he had been willing to reach out, or perhaps if others had just reached out to him, it would all have been different. Or perhaps the lesson is that some people are too damaged to help. But no one shall ever know, for he belongs to Chaos now.

WRITTEN: As the single most one dimensional primarch, Angron might as well have tattooed Khorne's symbol on his forehead from the get-go. His legion didn't need any set-up or explanation to fall to Chaos.

Magnus note: I haven't read Thousand Sons yet, so I can only give you the Intended part here.
INTENDED: Magnus was rebuked by the Emperor for using the powers of the Warp to advance the Imperium. The Emperor felt that it was too dangerous, Magnus felt that he could control it. When Magnus did not give up his pursuits, the Emperor sent word to Russ to apprehend Magnus. Horus, however, told Russ that the Emperor wanted Magnus destroyed. Magnus escaped Russ's assault, and in self defense turned to Chaos, exactly as Horus wanted.

Mortarion
INTENDED: Mortarion had very few friends, and due to his upbringing, an intense desire to be liked, to fit in, to not be a monster. Horus and the Night Haunter (Konrad Curze) were his only real friends, and so they had more influence than anyone else (including the Emperor) with him. Adding this to the fact that the Emperor's first meeting with Mortarion involved stealing the primarch's thunder, showing him up in front of all of his people, and causing him to fail at his life's ambition, and you realize that Mortarion was always more loyal to Horus than the Emperor, and would have followed Horus no matter the Warmaster's reasons for rebellion.

WRITTEN: Everyone else was doing it...

Perturabo if his fall is detailed in one of the HH books, then I haven't got to it yet.
INTENDED: Perturabo never accepted the people of his homeworld as his own. Although they took him in, he never returned their acceptance, and so never grew attached to them. When he was found by the Emperor, he took command of his world by force. Small resentments grew between himself and other primarchs. Some disliked him because of his grasp of technology that they could not match. He disliked Rogal Dorn for excelling in the area he considered to be HIS area of expertise. When the people of his homeworld rebelled, he over reacted (fearing the shame of being the only primarch to suffer such an indignity) and slaughtered over five million of the people who had adopted him and taken him in as one of their own. His is intended to be a tragic story, for if he had just opened up to them, this need not have happened. If he had opened up to his brothers, he would not have felt the need to hide his disgrace from them, instead getting their counsel on the situation. But instead, his own heart was as impenetrable as he believed his siege defenses to be, and so he closed himself off not only from personal connections, but from the rest of humanity as well.

Konrad Curze Read the Night Lords books. Good stuff.
WRITTEN/INTENDED: Kurze was not raised by any adoptive family, good or evil. He grew up by himself, alone in the night of a planet which never saw daylight, and knew only treachery, betrayal, and murder. Like most of his brethren, Kurze sought to find a better way for the world he had been thrust upon. And he did. By killing the evildoers he encountered on his homeworld, Curze intimidated the population into submission, but this lesson would taint his thinking for the rest of his life. Curze firmly believed that murderers, evildoers, and those who would prey upon the weak must be destroyed. He also knew that the Emperor could never an individual focused on such a belief (with the power of a primarch) to live. He turned upon the Imperium because it was just as much a bully as the worlds he brought into compliance. And when his assassination finally came, he took it as a sign of vindication, proving the truth of his convictions.

Jimsolo wrote:I love answering background questions. It tickles me pink to read the work of the writers, and then fill in the holes for people who haven't had a chance to read everything yet. It's probably my favorite part of the hobby.

So, first off: Good question.

...


...


...


...tragically, I can't think of a good answer. To be perfectly honest, the Horus Heresy series was supposed to shed some light on this dilemma, but has thus far failed to do so. I would love to see them get a writer who can write the fall of the primarchs and make it believable, but again, they haven't done so. Don't get me wrong, the HH is an awesome series, it gives great insight into the formation of the Imperium, and it adds a bunch to the background of the game. But by and large the primarchs themselves aren't handled well. Pretty much, Abnett is the only guy who is capable. (In my opinion.) So...I can tell you what happened (as far as the author intended) and what happened (as far as what they actually WROTE)

Horus
INTENDED: Horus felt minor feelings of abandonment by the Emperor leaving the progress of the war to him and returning to Earth to hijack the Webway. The Ruinous Powers, in conjunction with Erebus, (who had already turned evil) preyed on these feelings, deepening them, turning Horus on himself until he talked himself out of his own virtues, using his own faults as justification.

WRITTEN: On his own, the most loved and powerful being other than the Emperor, he got an injury and then, while under the influence of hallucinogens, decided to take the word of his fevered hallucinations and some peon from a totally different legion over that of his creator, father, and mentor.

Lorgar
INTENDED: Lorgar wanted to deify the Emperor. When the Emperor rebuked him for this, Lorgar's adoration turned to bitterness, and his zealous vision twisted to see the Emperor as a 'false god' who was leading them all down a selfish path of annihilation. He thus turned his attentions to rebellion.

WRITTEN: Evil...seemed like a good idea at the time?

Alpharius As a side note, written by Dan Abnett. Probably the best handled.
WRITTEN/INTENDED: The Alpha Legion was persuaded by an alien force with enough longevity to understand such things that the Heresy was inevitable. In addition, they became convinced that if Horus WON, his remaining guilt over what he had done would compel him to turn humanity on itself in a never ending series of wars, driving the human race extinct and taking Chaos with it. They made the decision to make the ultimate sacrifice (on behalf of the whole human race) to destroy Chaos forever.

Fulgrim
INTENDED: Fulgrim became obsessed with his inability to access the parts of humanity that makes us (humans) a civilized race: art, beauty, creation, imagination. He focused on this so extensively that he eventually turned (unwittingly) to what he thought was a source of inspiration (Slaanesh). Tragically, his pursuit became what heroin addicts call 'chasing the dragon': a never ending pursuit of a transcendent experience that was always just out of reach. Eventually, he looked back at what he had done and what he had become in the pursuit of this, and by that time, he was already a monster. It was already too late.

WRITTEN: Fulgrim was a great artist, but his low self esteem caused him to always find fault in his own work, and so he picked up this magic telepathic sword that told him it was okay to do evil things, like murder people and make paintings using the victim's bodily fluids. Apparently, finding nothing strange about this AT ALL, Fulgrim went along with it. When he finally realized that the sword was EVIL, he tried to walk away, but he couldn't get over how cool a magic sword was, so he just threw morality to the wind and went to the other side.

Angron
INTENDED: Angron was damaged by his time in the gladiator pits of his homeworld. By the time that the Emperor found him, he was already a seething mass of hate. Bloodshed was all he knew, and all he wanted to know. Perhaps if he had been willing to reach out, or perhaps if others had just reached out to him, it would all have been different. Or perhaps the lesson is that some people are too damaged to help. But no one shall ever know, for he belongs to Chaos now.

WRITTEN: As the single most one dimensional primarch, Angron might as well have tattooed Khorne's symbol on his forehead from the get-go. His legion didn't need any set-up or explanation to fall to Chaos.

Magnus note: I haven't read Thousand Sons yet, so I can only give you the Intended part here.
INTENDED: Magnus was rebuked by the Emperor for using the powers of the Warp to advance the Imperium. The Emperor felt that it was too dangerous, Magnus felt that he could control it. When Magnus did not give up his pursuits, the Emperor sent word to Russ to apprehend Magnus. Horus, however, told Russ that the Emperor wanted Magnus destroyed. Magnus escaped Russ's assault, and in self defense turned to Chaos, exactly as Horus wanted.

Mortarion
INTENDED: Mortarion had very few friends, and due to his upbringing, an intense desire to be liked, to fit in, to not be a monster. Horus and the Night Haunter (Konrad Curze) were his only real friends, and so they had more influence than anyone else (including the Emperor) with him. Adding this to the fact that the Emperor's first meeting with Mortarion involved stealing the primarch's thunder, showing him up in front of all of his people, and causing him to fail at his life's ambition, and you realize that Mortarion was always more loyal to Horus than the Emperor, and would have followed Horus no matter the Warmaster's reasons for rebellion.

WRITTEN: Everyone else was doing it...

Perturabo if his fall is detailed in one of the HH books, then I haven't got to it yet.
INTENDED: Perturabo never accepted the people of his homeworld as his own. Although they took him in, he never returned their acceptance, and so never grew attached to them. When he was found by the Emperor, he took command of his world by force. Small resentments grew between himself and other primarchs. Some disliked him because of his grasp of technology that they could not match. He disliked Rogal Dorn for excelling in the area he considered to be HIS area of expertise. When the people of his homeworld rebelled, he over reacted (fearing the shame of being the only primarch to suffer such an indignity) and slaughtered over five million of the people who had adopted him and taken him in as one of their own. His is intended to be a tragic story, for if he had just opened up to them, this need not have happened. If he had opened up to his brothers, he would not have felt the need to hide his disgrace from them, instead getting their counsel on the situation. But instead, his own heart was as impenetrable as he believed his siege defenses to be, and so he closed himself off not only from personal connections, but from the rest of humanity as well.

Konrad Curze Read the Night Lords books. Good stuff.
WRITTEN/INTENDED: Kurze was not raised by any adoptive family, good or evil. He grew up by himself, alone in the night of a planet which never saw daylight, and knew only treachery, betrayal, and murder. Like most of his brethren, Kurze sought to find a better way for the world he had been thrust upon. And he did. By killing the evildoers he encountered on his homeworld, Curze intimidated the population into submission, but this lesson would taint his thinking for the rest of his life. Curze firmly believed that murderers, evildoers, and those who would prey upon the weak must be destroyed. He also knew that the Emperor could never an individual focused on such a belief (with the power of a primarch) to live. He turned upon the Imperium because it was just as much a bully as the worlds he brought into compliance. And when his assassination finally came, he took it as a sign of vindication, proving the truth of his convictions.

HORUS: Well I would say it was pride that was finally his downfall. In the end he gets tricked with a catch 22. The gods show him a future were those no staues of him and he gets angry and betrays the Emperor. But of course there's no statues of him because he betrays The Emperor!

Alpharius: Well according to Legion the did it for Humanity too. The Cabal predicted that humanity could never be kept down as a Chaos Imperium for long and eventually succesfully rebel and rebuilt into something much better. But if the Emperor won it would lead to 10,000 years of war. But what did they know? Damn filthy Xenos!

The tragedy with the Cabal and the Alpha Legion was that the Cabal was right.


And you and I have, I think, discussed Horus's fall and it's relation to pride before in a different thread. For the sake of brevity I will point out that in my 'Intended' section under Horus that I think he was intended to have turned on himself (psychologically) attacking his virtues with his own faults. (So, sure, 'pride' is an apt, if brief, descriptor.) However, in the actual execution of the written work, I will reiterate the point that I made the first time: While pride may have contributed to Horus's downfall, I think that he was really undone by sub-par writing.

Jimsolo wrote:The tragedy with the Cabal and the Alpha Legion was that the Cabal was right.


And you and I have, I think, discussed Horus's fall and it's relation to pride before in a different thread. For the sake of brevity I will point out that in my 'Intended' section under Horus that I think he was intended to have turned on himself (psychologically) attacking his virtues with his own faults. (So, sure, 'pride' is an apt, if brief, descriptor.) However, in the actual execution of the written work, I will reiterate the point that I made the first time: While pride may have contributed to Horus's downfall, I think that he was really undone by sub-par writing.

I really doubt that the Cabal was rite my theory was that he was tainted already or he just wanted to make both sides weak after fighting each other so the Eldars can take their home worlds back. Also Konrad Kurze join chaos beacuse of his visions that drove him mad.

In terms of Magnus, Jimsolo, I don't believe Horus necessarily wanted Magnus to turn to Chaos, but to simply engage and damage two Legions who he knew would be Loyal to the Emperor.

Magnus believed

I think Konrad Kurze is the best primarch (except may Sanguinus) as he realises his flaws and was ultimately correct.

Also, I COMPLETELY disagree with you - Jimsolo - I think for the most part the HH series and the Primarchs are dealt with really well. It shows the naturally human flaws (Perfectionism/Fulgrim. Arrogance/Magnus. Jealousy and power/Mortarion etc.) and many of their falls from grace. I think it gives the Primarchs an almost human quality to other inhuman characters. Except as I have said, Kurze and Sanguinus who appear to be ultimately correct. The Horus Heresy also does a great job of displaying the powers and manipulation of Chaos.

I have seen people disagree with me on this topic often. (About fifty percent of the time, I find.)

I think that a primarch is supposed to be a breed apart from humanity. If they fall victim to plots that I can see through (and for that matter, a child could see through) then they are nothing more than superstrong. Which is what some people want: genetic supersoldiers who are mentally and emotionally just people, vulnerable to all the flaws that such a state entails.

I, on the other hand, always saw the primarchs as being above humanity in all regards. Mentally, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and in all other regards beyond comprehension. I don't ever want to see story narration from the point of view of a primarch. Why? A primarch's thought process should be so complex that I shouldn't be able to understand it. Best writing of a primarch in the HH (in my opinion mind) is Alpharius/Omegon.

When it comes to primarchs, less is more. I want them to be mysterious and unknowable. I don't want primarchs to be more than me, I want them to be more than I ever could have been. They shouldn't be able to be indentified with. I think that the correct way to write their stories is to not write from their point of view, but instead from the point of view of those close to them, those who can be understood and identified with, such as guardsman, lesser astartes, or incidental allies.

Horus's fall (in the HH) was silly. (I think.) What's more, Fulgrim's fall was absolute and total drek. It was ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, the HH is still a fun series, but the primarchs themselves are for the most part poorly written.

Jimsolo wrote:I have seen people disagree with me on this topic often. (About fifty percent of the time, I find.)

I think that a primarch is supposed to be a breed apart from humanity. If they fall victim to plots that I can see through (and for that matter, a child could see through) then they are nothing more than superstrong. Which is what some people want: genetic supersoldiers who are mentally and emotionally just people, vulnerable to all the flaws that such a state entails.

I, on the other hand, always saw the primarchs as being above humanity in all regards. Mentally, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and in all other regards beyond comprehension. I don't ever want to see story narration from the point of view of a primarch. Why? A primarch's thought process should be so complex that I shouldn't be able to understand it. Best writing of a primarch in the HH (in my opinion mind) is Alpharius/Omegon.

When it comes to primarchs, less is more. I want them to be mysterious and unknowable. I don't want primarchs to be more than me, I want them to be more than I ever could have been. They shouldn't be able to be indentified with. I think that the correct way to write their stories is to not write from their point of view, but instead from the point of view of those close to them, those who can be understood and identified with, such as guardsman, lesser astartes, or incidental allies.

Horus's fall (in the HH) was silly. (I think.) What's more, Fulgrim's fall was absolute and total drek. It was ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, the HH is still a fun series, but the primarchs themselves are for the most part poorly written.

I'm Reading Tales of Heresy right now.
What I think they should do is some sort of Anthology that quickly covers the childhoods/origins of each Primarch. Often Index Astartes stuff is more interesting than the HH books because you can see why they ended up the eay they did and why their Legions have a certain personality.

While Horus was injured and unconscious, Erebus guided him on a "vision quest" in order to show him the power of the chaos gods, and turn him against his father.
IIRC one of these visions was of the Imperium circa M40 where the Emperor was worshipped as a god, and humanity was ground beneath the heel of despotic beaurocrats, and perpetually stuck in a dark age state of ignorance.
Horus believed that this was his father's goal, to simply ascend to godhood and abandon humanity.
Ironically enough it was Horus's rebellion which disrupted the Emperor's plans, which was probably a something along the lines of the Emperor having total mastery of the warp and reality, and humanity, by proxy ruling with him in a golden age of complete dominance, and enlightenment.
Horus also was more than a little jealous that it would be his father, and not him who ultimately rule everything, especially after the Emperor "abandoned the crusade" to chase godhood.

Horus: I have no father.
Mortarion: Why can't he just say that he loves me?
Angron: feth you dad!
Perturabo: Look what I can do!
Alpharius: Who's my daddy?
Fulgrim: I want to be like mommy.
Lorgar: Why can't you be like my step-dad(s).
Konrad: I'll show that bastard.
Magnus: Sorry I wrecked the car papa.

Jimsolo wrote:I have seen people disagree with me on this topic often. (About fifty percent of the time, I find.)

I think that a primarch is supposed to be a breed apart from humanity. If they fall victim to plots that I can see through (and for that matter, a child could see through) then they are nothing more than superstrong. Which is what some people want: genetic supersoldiers who are mentally and emotionally just people, vulnerable to all the flaws that such a state entails.

I, on the other hand, always saw the primarchs as being above humanity in all regards. Mentally, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and in all other regards beyond comprehension. I don't ever want to see story narration from the point of view of a primarch. Why? A primarch's thought process should be so complex that I shouldn't be able to understand it. Best writing of a primarch in the HH (in my opinion mind) is Alpharius/Omegon.

When it comes to primarchs, less is more. I want them to be mysterious and unknowable. I don't want primarchs to be more than me, I want them to be more than I ever could have been. They shouldn't be able to be indentified with. I think that the correct way to write their stories is to not write from their point of view, but instead from the point of view of those close to them, those who can be understood and identified with, such as guardsman, lesser astartes, or incidental allies.

Horus's fall (in the HH) was silly. (I think.) What's more, Fulgrim's fall was absolute and total drek. It was ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, the HH is still a fun series, but the primarchs themselves are for the most part poorly written.

Well, that's fair enough. Tbh I like that you accept it's opinion rather than fact - sorry, that kinda thing just annoys me...

I think what you're/we're saying is more a matter of preference instead of poor writing then?

I believe that they had to suffer from human flaws, they were after all human, raised from humans and created from a man (Emperor) who himself had all-too-human flaws. I'd like them to be above-human and they are, they just have some human traits, as they should. I think it's a great twist that these super-human beings who 'mortals' revere have such human flaws. I believe it adds more to the Horus Heresy rather than Chaos simply being sneaky.

for what it's worth, Sanguinus seems to me that only 'flawless' Primarch - as such, he is a dude.

Lets be honest though, I think the Horus Heresy series would be pretty pointless if the Primarch's were "mysterious and unknowable" (the latter of which isn't a word btw ).

I think Horus' fall was quite good - rejected (Emperor), over-burdened(Warmaster), desperate (wounded), lied to (by Chaos and/or the Emperor), covertly manipulated (Erebus), forced to attack those he wanted to unite with (Interex), undermined(religious worship), without those who best helped him (mournival) and manipulated by higher powers. And that's not even all the reasons he turned! And the way he turned is clever too! Subtly getting his warriors 'used to' attacking fellow Space Marines through the 'technocracy' who he also used to get STC's to ally with the Mechanicum and appealing to the weaknesses of his fellow Primarchs. I think Horus' fall from grace was great and totally understandable.

I have to admit, Fulgrim's wasn't so good, but it wasn't that bad IMHO.

I agree that it's all an opinion thing. If you like the way the HH handles the fall of the primarchs, then that's a good thing. I feel like Horus had no convincing reason (the way it was written) to turn to Chaos. I wanted more, and they failed to give it to me. I understand that not everyone shares my opinion, and that's fine. Buy the books if you think they are worth the purchase price. I, on the other hand, shall vote with my wallet, and vote an emphatic 'no' on primarch PoV storytelling.

I like my primarchs just out of reach of the mortal frame of reference. I want their thought processes to be mysterious, almost alien. In a word, unknowable. (American Heritage Dictionary, 4th Edition) While I like them being flawed, I dislike it when their apparent flaw is retardation. While I understand that the back history intends to get an entirely different story out there, the writers of the majority of the HH didn't come through.

But it's all opinion. In my first post on this thread, I included the reason for their fall to Chaos, as the back history of the game intended for it to be. (Insofar as I knew it.) My personal opinions aside, it is a great story. (Just, I think, not always written well.)

I used to think Angron was the most one dimensional too but his short story in tales of heresy really helped flesh out his character for me. Kharn too, I think it was my gave story in the whole book

Personnally, IMHO MAGNUS is the most interesting, he was obviously obsessed with the Warp and harnessing its power for the good of humanity. His loyalty was always to the Emprah, and Horus tricked Leman Russ into destroying Prospero as Magnus was defying the council of Nikcea (sic). MAGNUS tried to warn the Emperor but inadvertently interrupted his father in the imperial dungeon as he was trying to build a link into the Eldar Web way. This interruption caused Daemons and Chaos to flood into the area behind the golden throne (through a giant gate, i cannot remember the name) and the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes had to fight like the REMFS they are to protect the workers from being slaughtered. The Emperor had to use all his will to seal the Tear and stop the flood of daemons through the gate into the imperial palace under the Himalaya's.
Horus really wanted to force Magnus into corner to make him make a decision either way and eventually he caved in and gave over to Horus and his Chaos God Allies, since then Magnus's power has increased massively since being given power of the Chaos Gods.

The Emperor very much pushed Magnus away from him, and it is unsurprising that eventually it all went wrong for him and now he lives like stephen hawking in a golden chair.

Magnus never intended this to happen and in the end he was ostracised and forced over to Chaos. The Space Wolves really smashed up Prospero, infact it was Epic Level Smashing...

Horus however, was slowly poisoned by Erebus and the tribe on the planet after he was wounded badly (Davinite was it?) his dream like state he was slowly poisoned and his mind turned against his father as they preyed on his fears and hopes. He felt abandoned but that he was worthy of remembrance as the Warmaster and he was afraid of being ignored in the imperial history. I can see why Horus slowly changed, but the true architect was Erebus, and really a book from his perspective would be truly enlightening. The self fulfilling prophecy.....

Jimsolo wrote:I agree that it's all an opinion thing. If you like the way the HH handles the fall of the primarchs, then that's a good thing. I feel like Horus had no convincing reason (the way it was written) to turn to Chaos. I wanted more, and they failed to give it to me. I understand that not everyone shares my opinion, and that's fine. Buy the books if you think they are worth the purchase price. I, on the other hand, shall vote with my wallet, and vote an emphatic 'no' on primarch PoV storytelling.

I like my primarchs just out of reach of the mortal frame of reference. I want their thought processes to be mysterious, almost alien. In a word, unknowable. (American Heritage Dictionary, 4th Edition) While I like them being flawed, I dislike it when their apparent flaw is retardation. While I understand that the back history intends to get an entirely different story out there, the writers of the majority of the HH didn't come through.

But it's all opinion. In my first post on this thread, I included the reason for their fall to Chaos, as the back history of the game intended for it to be. (Insofar as I knew it.) My personal opinions aside, it is a great story. (Just, I think, not always written well.)

I find myself agreeing with you on this one. I was somehow dissatisfied with Horus' fall, but I couldn't quite put a finger on why until I read your excellent posts in this thread. Above, you mentioned that you hadn't read the Thousand Suns yet, but based on your posts I think you will like it a great deal. I haven't finished it yet (I'm about 3/4 of the way through), but it seems to match the unknowable primarch approach you prefer. It is told through the PoV of Arhiman and several human remembrancers, and they repeatedly describe how the Primarchs interact on a different plain.

The Horus Heresy series is (in my opinion) one of the most annoying series of books ever.

You have Horus Rising, False Gods, Galaxy in Flames which is one story.

AND THEN you have the fluff surrounding the events leading up to the Istvaan massacres.

I wish they'd started with the background stories for each primarch, THEN done the events leading up to the Istvaan debacle, and then on to terra.

The background stories for each primarch:

a- isn't exactly the Horus Heresy.

b- Is generally well known anyway, or mentioned or easy enough to find out

c- Was done in Descent of Angels - which was s**t.