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Can daemons now still use more than one of the same banner?

Do Chaos Daemons have banners?

Homer

1) I think you mean FANTASY daemons
2) They count as magic banners, so RAW no - see magic items resitrctions. Unless the faq has changed things again.

MODS alerted...

the chaos guy wrote:Can daemons now still use more than one of the same banner?

Yes, Daemons don't have banners. They have Daemonic Icons which are gifts. The only restriction is that a standard bearer can not take multiple Daemonic Icons. You can have 3 different units of Bloodletters each with a full command and each standard bearer can have the same Icon.

Yep, theyre removed the previous FAQ where they were sort-of magic banners. Now you can have as many of the same as you want, as they dont follow the magic items Unique rules.

Isn't the problem the errata which adds "Daemonic Icons are Magic Standards." to page 95?

If they intended to make Daemonic Icons one per army, they would have adjusted the unit entries. The unit entries clearly give every standard bearer an option to carry a Daemonic Icon, listing all the available options. Note that this is different to other army books, in which options are usually the form of "may carry a magic standard worth up to 50pts" or similar. In Daemons of Chaos, the option is "Standard bearer may carry one of the following Daemonic Icons: Icon of Always Taken (25pts), Icon of Despair (25pts)" and that option holds for every unit whether or not another unit has already used the option.

I believe the addition of "Daemonic Icons are Magic Standards" is meant to clarify how Daemonic Icons work in general terms. Now they effectively count as Magic Items and are affected by abilities that have an effect on Magic Items. Unlike Daemonic Gifts, the true nature of Daemonic Icons was never clarified in the armybook.

If you decide to ignore the rules for purchasing magic items, Chaos Daemons can duplicate the magic banners all they want.

It's as simple as that.

It does seem to be that, RAW, daemonic icons are magic banners, and cannot be repeated.

It's hard to argue with the wording of the FAQ entry that solkan quoted above.

RAI, who knows, but that's not really the question...

Gah, that'll teach me for skimming the FAQ too early...

yup, one per army. Joy.

Personally, I'd rather that the FAQ said "counts as magic items" instead of what it does, but who knows whether GW's going to put out more changes.

If they intended one per army then they would have adjusted all the unit entries. The codex is clear that a standard bearer may take one of the following icons. Unless the rule book says it overrides the codex then nothing has changed.

Sol wrote:If they intended one per army then they would have adjusted all the unit entries. The codex is clear that a standard bearer may take one of the following icons. Unless the rule book says it overrides the codex then nothing has changed.

By that standard, every army book which says "May take X points of magic items" gets to completely ignore the uniqueness rules, as well.

solkan wrote:

Sol wrote:If they intended one per army then they would have adjusted all the unit entries. The codex is clear that a standard bearer may take one of the following icons. Unless the rule book says it overrides the codex then nothing has changed.

By that standard, every army book which says "May take X points of magic items" gets to completely ignore the uniqueness rules, as well.

Uh no because they don't have a codex that says they can do so. The army books say you can take x points of magic items, and it also says you can not take multiples of the same item. The daemon codex states that a standard bearer may take one of the following icons the only restriction is that a standard bearer can only take one icon. I don't really understand why you made the statement above it has no bearing on the discussion at all. Are you aware that daemons can take multiples of the same items? You can have a bloodthirster with a firestorm blade, and have 3 heralds of khorne with firestorm blades. All in the same army. If they intended it to be one per army I said they would have errata'd the entire army book of unit entries, because all the core, specials and rare that can carry standards would be completely gimped since there are only 2 standards available per the particular god they represent. The errata was simply a clarification of icons. Nothing will change the way daemons take icons unless you can point to a errata or page in the brb where it states that the errata or brb take precedence over the codex. Otherwise the codex takes precedence.

It doesn't matter whether every single model in the army would have the option of taking the magic standard, it's still subject to the uniqueness requirement. The Chaos Daemon army book does not say that the army can duplicate magic items. The errata for the army book says that the icons are magic standards, and magic standards are magic items, and as magic items they can't be duplicated in an army unless the magic item description says otherwise.

I understand your argument, but I will still insist that this was simply to clarify some game play issues. The army book clearly says that they are gifts, and yes they are magic items, but they still follow all the other rules for gifts listed on page 92. Otherwise why wouldn't they have errata'd the entire section, or did games work shop not realize they forgot to list a section for them in the table of contents? Saying they are "magic standards" in no way changes the fact that they are still gifts and follow the same rules for gifts. They only clarified some of the game play mechanics by calling them out as magic standards.

On point of detail, the army book doesn't clearly state that they are gifts. For starters, they're in a completely different section entitled Chaos Icons, rather than the Daemonic Gifts sections. The only thing which clearly stated that they were subject to the rules for Daemonic Gifts is the now superseded 7th edition FAQ, and between then and now they added the errata that states that they're magic standards.

The only thing I can find to suggest that Chaos Icons are supposed to be a subsection of Daemonic Gifts is the fact that it's not listed in the table of contents. And given GW's editorial history, that's not particularly convincing. The two sections are one after the other, and use the exact same font size for their headings, and that doesn't imply subsection. And if you look on page 87, it says "this is in addition to any Daemonic Gifts he wishes to choose" instead of "this is in addition to any other Daemonic Gifts". "other Daemonic Gifts" would have implied the connection (and probably would have been better writing in that case).

As I see it, that doesn't leave a lot of evidence to support the "Chaos Icons are supposed to be Daemonic Gifts" side of the argument. I'm just hoping against hope to see a second round of FAQ's to make this and some of the other arguments go away.

So you are saying you are right and GW is wrong? Daemonic Icons are under Daemonic Gifts. If they weren't suppose to be GW would have said so already. In fact in the past GW has clearly stated they are under Daemonic Gifts. Your argument about page 87 is flawed since this is GW simply making it clear that Icons and Gifts don't follow the same rules as magic items in other army books or the brb. Because normally you cannot take a magic banner and magic items. Whereas a Daemon BSB can take both.

I'd have to agree with Solkan on this one - 7th edition FAQ - sure they didn't count as Magic Standards so the 7th Edition FAQ applied counting them as Daemonic Icons, gifts, whatever. No question or doubt you could take multiples of the same banner.

8th Edition though, when they specifically states "Add Daemonic Icons are Magic Banners" - that seems pretty clear to me that they are now magic banners. Magic Banners are limited to one per army per the main rule book. If they had put something out in the FAQ that said "Daemonic Icons are Magic Banners that may be taken more than once" - I would see the other side of the argument.

This seems to be more of a 7th Ed vice 8th Ed argument.

Mattbranb wrote:I'd have to agree with Solkan on this one - 7th edition FAQ - sure they didn't count as Magic Standards so the 7th Edition FAQ applied counting them as Daemonic Icons, gifts, whatever. No question or doubt you could take multiples of the same banner.

8th Edition though, when they specifically states "Add Daemonic Icons are Magic Banners" - that seems pretty clear to me that they are now magic banners. Magic Banners are limited to one per army per the main rule book. If they had put something out in the FAQ that said "Daemonic Icons are Magic Banners that may be taken more than once" - I would see the other side of the argument.

This seems to be more of a 7th Ed vice 8th Ed argument.

They were counted as magic standards in the 7th edition faq.