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OK, so in a game I played against the other day a model was wounded by a gun that had ap5, and the models' sv was 6+, but it had FNP (Feel No Pain). My opponent stated that he should be allowed to take the FNP roll since it was not an AP1 or AP2 weapon, instant kill, power weapon, and considered the wound an "unsaved wound".

My point was this:

5th Ed Main rulebook Section Armor piercing weapons, first bullet point: “...If the weapon’s Armor Piercing value is equal to or lower than the model’s armor save then it is sufficiently powerful to punch straight through the armor and the target gets no armor save at all..." (My own emphasis)

5th Ed Main Rulebook, Feel No pain: “...If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1,2,or 3 take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses it’s final wound). On a 4,5 or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting..."

I don't think FNP should be allowed, he says it should be. I've received multiple differences as to why each side has valid points.

Can anyone please clear this up for myself and my opponent?

thanks.

P.S. I have attempted to search the forums on this subject/ruling and the search engine keeps timing out on me during my search. I'm sorry if this has been posted before."

If you aren't able to make a save due to the weapon AP being lower than the 6+ save, it's an "unsaved wound"....

I don't like FNP either but RaW he gets the FNP roll in the situation you described.

FNP is not a saving throw. Saving throws are defined as armour saves, cover saves, and invulnerable saves. More specifically, it's distinctly not an armour save.

FNP has a line specifying that you can't take it under certain circumstances, if none of those are fulfilled you get the FNP.

Agnosto is correct.

The FNP rule explicitly states "any weapon against which an armor save may never be taken."

In other words, AP1, AP2, instakill, and power weapons. As well as failed dangerous terrain tests, perils of the warp, etc.

There are situations in which armor saves could be taken against an AP5 weapon. Even if his armor value is 6+, if you shot at him with an AP5 weapon, he still gets FNP.

Simply, if what he's hitting you with can NEVER be saved against via armor, in any situation, you cannot take FNP. If there is a situation where an armor save can be taken against that weapon, you can take FNP.

For the record, Armor saves can be taken against instant kill weapons, FNP is just specifically restricted.

Otherwise, entirely correct.

calypso2ts wrote:For the record, Armor saves can be taken against instant kill weapons, FNP is just specifically restricted.

Otherwise, entirely correct.

Against weapons that are double strength but still allow an armor save, yes.

However, I can't think of a single weapon that explicitly instantly kills the model, regardless of toughness, that also allows an armor save.

Some, like the Necron Warscythe, don't even allow invulnerable saves.

It's because you play marines. Anything T3 is insta-gibbed by a S6 weapon but might be allowed a save..

SaintHazard wrote:However, I can't think of a single weapon that explicitly instantly kills the model, regardless of toughness, that also allows an armor save.

Meganobz Joined by Mad Doc hit by a Battlecannon.

They still get their 2+ Armour saves but won't get their FnP!

Gwar! wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:However, I can't think of a single weapon that explicitly instantly kills the model, regardless of toughness, that also allows an armor save.

Meganobz Joined by Mad Doc hit by a Battlecannon.

They still get their 2+ Armour saves but won't get their FnP!

I stand corrected!

Gwar! knows everything.

You can also have Blood Angels Terminators with a Priest nearby as another example.

Okay, now you're making me look bad. Hush.

the way it was explained to me is that while the ap maybe enough to kill a model normally if it is not double the models toughnes it still gets FNP

If FNP worked for AP >2 in the manner mentioned, then IG would have even less use for the 30pt upgrade (that's overpriced anyway).

the easy way to remember it is: does a terminator get an armor save? yes, then FNP works. no, then FNP is out.

Manticores are Str 10, and so IK most models in the game, and yet is AP4, so most of those models get an armor save as well.

Reading Comprehension FTW, Ignore me...


Nothing to see here, move along

Can we sticky this, please?

It comes up an awful lot.

Monster Rain wrote:Can we sticky this, please?

It comes up an awful lot.

doubtful. after all these years and threads, there isn't a specific question sticky on YMDC and i don't think they'll start now. besides, the people that don't bother to use the search function to find the same oft repeated question aren't likely to notice the sticky post either. :(

Ah. Well then only AP 1 and 2, instant death wounds and close combat weapons that don't allow armor saves negate FNP.

Don't be beardy!

Monster Rain wrote:Ah. Well then only AP 1 and 2, instant death wounds and close combat weapons that don't allow armor saves negate FNP.

Don't be beardy!

Also dangerous terrain checks (don't allow armor saves), ranged weapons against which no armor save may ever be taken (such as Wind of Chaos), rolling 1 when wielding a Daemon Weapon, sweeping advance, and wounds from Perils of the Warp.

It's ok, I have a chart for this.

FNP vs AP - = Yes
FNP vs AP 6 = Yes
FNP vs AP 5 = Yes
FNP vs AP 4 = Yes
FNP vs AP 3 = Yes
FNP vs AP 2 = No
FNP vs AP 1 = No
FNP vs Tx2 = No
FNP vs Instant Death = No
FNP vs Strength (Destroyer) = No
FNP vs Power weapons/fists/klaws = No
FNP vs No retreat = Yes
FNP vs Gets Hot = Yes
FNP vs Perils of the warp = No
FNP vs Demon Weapon rolls of 1 = No
FNP vs Dangerous Terrain = No
FNP vs "do(es) not allow armor save(s) to be taken against" = No
FNP vs "ignore(s) armor saves" = No
FNP vs “with no armor save(s) allowed” = No
FNP vs “counts/treated as a power weapon” = Np

Still accurate IIRC.
Not typed by me however.