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Hey guys,

I had a few questions on (as the title says) Deamonhunters. First, should I use them? I just recently purchased a pure GK Deamonhuntes army. I have tried looking at the tips and tactics for Deamonhunters pure GK, but the Dakka one is from 4th ed and is some guy's rant about why pure GK sucks.

The army is:

14 GK, 4 with incinerators
1 Inquisitor
10 GK termies, 2 with incinerators
Coteaz
Stern
Land Raider crusader
Ven Dread with assault cannon

Thanks,
Felsi

chowdered
Grey Knights are still pretty potent against their intended target, demons. It is, after all, a highly specialized force, so I guess no one can complain too much that they aren't strong against other armies..... but yeah, against other armies, you're basically asking to lose. Grey Knights are horrendously overcosted for what they do. Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are a little better but not much. Take Grey Knight Terminators if you do end up using them, they're still pretty solid.
AF

There's a few things you could try. I'd like to know what point value you're planning on playing at and if you're willing to buy/convert a few models.

You REALLY need some Rhinos to make this work. GKs are brutal, you just have to play pretty well with them.

Sadly theres no way to get around it, pure GK lists are really going to struggle in the 5th edition environment. Everything is just too expensive for what it does and you have no way to get Rhinos etc to protect your overpriced infantry. The only way I can really think of to make something resembling an effective GK army is a LR spam list, they may be expensive as hell but at least they give you some transports to hide in. If you are bit more flexible then this build works much better with a more mixed DH list with IST etc (so you can have cheap troops and expensive transports rather than expensive troops and expensive transports). More realistically if you are wanting a competitive army with DH/Grey Knights you are probably better off taking Guard or Marines and taking a DH component as allies.

Powerguy hit the nail on the head. Also if you have a team battle they work great as distraction while your partner either claims objectives or pummels your opponents.

Most DH players end up accepting they are going to lose more often than not, or bring in guard allies. It ends up looking like a guard list with GKs, but it is what it is.

The regular PAGK are at least 5 points overcosted per (and the sarge like 20 points). Their weapons options lack anti tank. The few native anti tank options are dreds and LRs. Dreds are easy to take out if they are the only real threat, and LR take up so many points you just become a LR spam army with expensive and still easy to kill cargo (yes I know its still a SM, but everybody can kill those)

The biggest problem comes down to GW making you pay for the dubious upgrade of storm bolters, the S boost (which is nice) the shrouding (which is crap) all the anti daemon rules (which don't work anymore) and the slight boost to WS that they get. I've broken it down, and by the standards of when they made the list, the points costs were justified. But who honestly would pay points for an entire squad of stormbolters, a bad night fighting rule, and a pile of crappy list tailoring war gear/rules?

Still like the armies theme, but man do they suck. I usually only use them against necron, footdar, horde orks, and deamon armies (as those are the only armies bad/vulnerable enough to make a game of it). Sure it might sound like list tailoring to some, but I just say its just playing in the shallow end of the army pool. (my other amies would just have a turkey shoot against the above)

Thanks guys. I might buy some IST, and get the Land Raider the GK were supposed to come with. I also play around 1,500 pt battles. The GK list I use is around 1,250 pts. I might throw in a few Rhinos from my SM army. Thanks for the advice, guys!

My reccomendation is to get pure GKs. it may not be good now, but the new codex will bring them up to par with 5th. you also don't want to risk them canceling the existing line of metal models for some plastics(hopefully we will get both)

i play GKs for 3 reasons

1) the models are the best sculpts GW has EVER made

2) the existing rules are good. its what they don't have that is bad.

3) i love the look on opponents faces when i tell them they lost to the "Worst" army in the current meta game.


getting some ISTs will help you right now as they can get Melta weapons, BUT...

Codex: DH is likely getting flushed for a new Codex: GKs. this means your metal ISTs will be worthless to you(unless you also play IG)

it is best for you to spend your cash on models you know will be staying. besides the IST models arn't anywhere near as cool as GKs.



you can win with Pure GKs. it requires alot more thinking then other armies(like IG and BA ) making you a better general for it. the problem is most people play them like they are Space Marines. they are NOT a Space Marine army no matter what the critics say.

GKs are fairly costed. it is the justicars and Weapon upgrades that cost too much. 9 points more then a Space marine gets you Str6 WS5, Fearless, Shrouding(which can be used to great effect) and a Stormbolter.

GK terminators are a steal for the points. 6 pts more then a vanilla terminator for WS5 Str6 Power attacks, Fearless and Shrouding.

Justicars and Grand Masters need to be brought up to par. Grandmasters need to have their Stats adjusted to WS7 and a 4+ invuln.(Vanilla captains have better WS and protection)

Justicars are a hangover from when Power weapons on squad leaders were a big deal. a 40% price cut is what is needed here.

I have to agree with Grey Tepmlar on this one. Wait for the new codex to buy anything other than Grey Knights, and it is difficult but not impossible to win. GKs are not marines. they have better shooting and better cc. In a pure GK list you are actually using a shooting army not a cc army. Shrouding is designed to average just below the range of your psycannons, giving you a slight edge and forcing your opponent to approach you. Unfortunately its very difficult to capitalize on this rule when you are tying to capture points across the board. I have yet to play GK in the current edition. And Kudos to Grey Templar for winning with this (my favorite) army.

I hate to go against the grain here...

If you're playing at sufficient points values you could absolutely wreck house with a few Land Raiders full of GKs and GK Terminators. A couple of Purgation Squads and some Mystics with Plasma Cannon Warriors in your Inquisitor Lord's retinue to deal with Deep Strikers and maybe some allied IG packing Meltas and you've got yourself a pretty decent list.

Mystics are good.
LR spam is probably the best you can do with a bad codex imo.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Mystics are good.
LR spam is probably the best you can do with a Old codex imo.

Fixed it for you


the DH codex is old and has old rules, balance, and composition. When the Codex was written Vehicles could die from Glancing hits, Vehicles were fairly rare(compared to the treadheads of today)


if you want a "Bad" codex, look at the Necrons. that is a Bad codex. it can still be used effectivly.



the Ironic thing is: the IG leafblower list as well as a Greentide ork list both have difficulties with GKs. Leafblower gets messed up by Shrouding and Deep Striking Terminators, and Greentide will crumble to the sheer amount of Stormbolter shots.

Demon Hunters sucked back then too. The only difference between then and now is that they suck worse. Look at the chaos 3.5 codex and witch hunters codex. They came out about the same time and are wwaaaayyyyy better.

witchhunters is good because they can get very good anti-tank on their basic troops. which wasn't as good then as it is now.

chaos 3.5 was a good codex.

DH was a VERY good codex when it came out. it was stacked against Deamons, but it did pretty well against everything else. the others aged well, DH, sadly, did not.


just because something isn't uber and is difficult to win with doesn't mean it is a Bad Codex. you can win with GKs, i have done so. I will admit they are probably the least competitive codex besides Necrons(who can't get Melta weapons at all, yet people still bring them to Tournaments like 'Ard Boyz)


if you think DH suck then don't play them. but allow those who wish to to enjoy this fantastic model range and rule set that can be effective when used correctly.

Whose preventing them.......? He can play whatever he wants....

Telling him the army sucks will make him think twice about playing them.

I have told him they are difficult to win with, but it can be done.


IMO: no codex "Sucks"

Sucks would be you can't win unless your opponent makes a bunch of huge mistakes.

They can be played but likely need Land Raider Spam to make up for the lack of speed and long range. I guess the other option would be as many PAGK's with psycannons as possible backed by shooting Dreds and a squad of GK Termies.

The Land Raider spam is kinda boring. I played it with Deathwing for a bit and it's so all or nothing. Either the enemy can crack you easily or can barely crack you at all. Not very fun. I guess some may like it but it's just not great IMO.

At high enough Point Values you could just be Orky with PAGK's. Max Troops, 3 with a Psycannon and 3 with an incinerator, a LRC with a GKGM and retinue with a Psychic Hood.

I might try to get that together for Ard Boyz.

well templar... he *should* think twice... they *do* suck... but if he thinks twice and for whatever reason he still wants to run them, then whose going to stop him?

Hopefully there will be a new codex by the time 'Ard boyz rolls around.

i was considering doing that.

GKGM with psycannon, Hammerhand, Frag grenades, and Hood. 206 pts
6 terminators with psycannon 301 pts

6 10 man PAGK squads. each with 2 psycannons, Frag grenades, melta bombs and Targeters. 1992 pts

2499 pts total.

it might not win, but dang; it would be fun. might win through opponents eyes popping out simply because "there is 67 GKs on the table!!!"

can only kill AV13+ in CC. enemy Infantry WILL die.

now i want to run this just because i can

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well templar... he *should* think twice... they *do* suck...

Wasn't a certain blogger kicking all kinds of ass at Ard Boyz with DH this year?

Grey Templar wrote:Hopefully there will be a new codex by the time 'Ard boyz rolls around.

i was considering doing that.

GKGM with psycannon, Hammerhand, Frag grenades, and Hood. 206 pts
6 terminators with psycannon 301 pts

6 10 man PAGK squads. each with 2 psycannons, Frag grenades, melta bombs and Targeters. 1992 pts

2499 pts total.

it might not win, but dang; it would be fun. might win through opponents eyes popping out simply because "there is 67 GKs on the table!!!"

can only kill AV13+ in CC. enemy Infantry WILL die.

now i want to run this just because i can

Just put some Melta Bombs on those Justicars. That could help you immensely. You could also drop the Hammerhand and the Storm Bolter on you GM and give him a Chainfist to go with his Force weapon.

idk..... I'd be curious to learn more about it if he was....

Monster Rain wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Hopefully there will be a new codex by the time 'Ard boyz rolls around.

i was considering doing that.

GKGM with psycannon, Hammerhand, Frag grenades, and Hood. 206 pts
6 terminators with psycannon 301 pts

6 10 man PAGK squads. each with 2 psycannons, Frag grenades, melta bombs and Targeters. 1992 pts

2499 pts total.

it might not win, but dang; it would be fun. might win through opponents eyes popping out simply because "there is 67 GKs on the table!!!"

can only kill AV13+ in CC. enemy Infantry WILL die.

now i want to run this just because i can

Just put some Melta Bombs on those Justicars. That could help you immensely. You could also drop the Hammerhand and the Storm Bolter on you GM and give him a Chainfist to go with his Force weapon.

they do have MBs

i'd have to model the Chainfist holding the FW, but that sounds like an Awsome pose.

heard a crazy rumor today that grey knights will be able to reroll all saves in their next codex.... has anyone else heard this....? It sounds crazy but if you'd told me two years ago that banewolves and deep striking land raiders were on the way I would have laughed...

I have head a bunch of crazy things....


all Stormbolters have Psybolts standard.

a GK LRRedeemer with a flamestorm cannon that ignores invulns.

Updated rules like 3++ stormshields, Force weapons, yaddayadda.

a Jetbike unit with the option to purchase a Stormshield in addition to the Str6 power weapons.

Stormravens.

NFWs are rending in addition to the current benifits. <----- this is the only one i can't really see happening, but LRs can fly and there are models with Batnipples so...

Shrouding is now the same as nightfighting(2d6 instead of 3d6) and so will be much more important

I haven't heard anything about this, but after Codex: BA Psychic Dreadnoughts are kind of a shoo in.




reroll all saves? with the new Stormshields that would make GKTs with SS nearly unkillable. sounds fluffy, but could be waaayyy overpowered.

i'll take that and Rending NFWs. nothing else and i will be happy

good points.... I can see what you mean.
I wouldnt be at all surprised to see them messing with reserve rolls. It seeems to be a pretty standard theme now. The officer of the fleet set the precident so now everyone gets it. I think they're making a huge mistake. If they let the GK LRR ignore invulnerables it could start showing up in later codices.

The progression from codices leading up to that tank would be pretty obvious though.
Guard: Banewolf (if you're not in terminator armor or don't have an invuln you die.)
Blood Angels: Baal (if you're not in terminator armor or you don't have an invuln you die AND I outflank.)
Inquisition: (If you're not in terminator armor you die AND I have two of these guns AND I deepstrike.)

The rationale in the original GK codex was that stuff that ignored invulns had zero ap value so the only people who really cared were demons. IMO the only time you should get to ignore an invuln save is when you hit them with a vortex weeapon.
AF

Fortunantly it would only be the inquisition that gets an AP3 template that ignores Invulns(the fluff is exclusive to the Inquisition). i don't think that Deep Striking LRs will happen either(it doesn't happen often now)

Reserve roll shannagins are meh IMO. if you build your army around it then its good, but otherwise it isn't really worth it.


Psycannons and Incinerators arn't that bad with AP4 and ignoring Invulns. most things with 4+ armor or worse don't have invulns or are deamons. Orks are an exception, but they don't really care about armor anyway.

I would like GKs to get a rule that counters the Deamon rule that gives them Eternal warrior or brings back a toned down Deamonic Instability test in exchange for the Deamonic assault rule.

really? if I get the option to bring something that messes with my reserves I always try to do it.... tired of the lose/lose situation the officer of the fleet hands you when guard go first.
Yeah the psycannon is just a flame thrower against orks anyway. Even heavy flamers are ap 4 so nothing game changing there...
I agree it would be cool if they had something to counter the demonic assault rule. it's reasonable to suppose they would have learned some special demon fighting tactics....

That Land Raider Redeemer actually already exists, it's an Apocalypse Datasheet from Imperial Armour Apocalypse II and you can get the model from Forge World.

Basically, if I remember well, a 270pts Land Raider with:
-twin-Linked Psycannons
-2 Flamestorm Cannons that ignore Invulnerables
-Psyk-out grenades that give you Initiative 10 on charge even when going into cover

Santa Claus, I want one for Christmas!!!

oh god its true.... they use apocalypse and forgeworld to test stuff before bringing it into the main game.... we're doomed... RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!!