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WARNING: Long Post

Dear Dakka Dakka,

I have been involved in a discussion on another forum about how The Dwellers Below interacts with Characters on Ridden Monsters and I'm still unsure of how I feel it's supposed to work. While the other forum has excellent readership and well thought out replies and good knowledge, I wanted to get a second opinion. As such, I thought I'd post here and see what you all have to say.

Here is the link to the thread from the other forum. http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=8800


BRB, Pg.496, The Dwellers Below, par.2, "The Dwellers Below is a direct damage spell with a range of 12". Every model in the target unit must past a Strength test or be slain, with no armor saves of any kind allowed. The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to 24". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 21+."

BRB, Pg.105, Ridden Monsters, par.1, "If a character model is riding a monster, it does not use the rules for cavalry or monstrous cavalry, but rather those given here."

BRB, Pg.105, Ridden Monsters, par.3, "Whilst a cavalry model is treated as a single model for purposes of hitting and wounding, a character and his ridden monster can be attacked separately. As the battle goes on, the character may find himself unhorsed (well, un-Griffoned, or un-Dragoned anyway) or the monster might have its rider slain fro off its back."

BRB, Pg.105, Shooting at Ridden Monsters, par.1, "As a single model, the monster and its rider are considered to be a single target. It is not possible to shoot specifically at either the rider or the mount unless the shooting model has the Sniper special rule (see page 75)."

BRB, Pg.105, Templates, par.1, "If you use a template weapon or spell that uses a template against a monster mount, both the riders and the mount are automatically hit if the monster's base is touched by the template."

BRB, Pg.10, Characteristic Tests, par.4, "Where a model (or unit) has more than one value for the same characteristic, as is the case for cavalry, for example, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of the values."

So, here's the question, does The Dwellers Below spell affect the Character and Ridden monster as a single model/unit in which case they would roll the highest Strength to see if they both passed the test, or does it affect both the rider and the monster separately and they both have to test against their own strength, or do you have to nominate either the rider or the monster as the sole target for the spell, thus only affecting one element of the unit/model?

On BoLS we came to the conclusion that it affected the whole mode as one and you tested against the highest strength value. If they passed, they both lived, if they failed, they both died. I can see how that can be a convincing end to the discussion based on page 10, however, a ridden monster isn't considered "cavalry." However, page 10 doesn't necessarily rule out other model or unit types, it simply gives an example using cavalry. So, I can see why that would make sense.

On the other hand, the spell specifically says it affects every model in the unit. And since Characters on Ridden Monsters are not considered cavalry, wouldn't they be considered separate elements for the purposes of this spell? I cited the shooting section of Ridden Monsters to point out that while for shooting purposes, they are considered one model and you can't target a specific element of the model, that's only for shooting. It does not say that about spells. And The Dwellers Below is not a shooting attack, it's a direct damage spell that targets all of the models in the unit. Thus, it doesn't follow the normal rules for shooting.

So, to bring it all together again, does The Dwellers Below spell affect the Character and Ridden monster as a single model/unit in which case they would roll the highest Strength to see if they both passed the test, or does it affect both the rider and the monster separately and they both have to test against their own strength, or do you have to nominate either the rider or the monster as the sole target for the spell, thus only affecting one element of the unit/model?

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

Separate and both test on their own strength.

Killjoy00 wrote:Separate and both test on their own strength.

Wrong – only templates and template using spells affect both the hero and his beast.

Dwellers has no template but rather hits each model once, and the hero and beast are one model.

And this is when the rules for charracteristic tests kick in – use highest.

HoverBoy wrote:

Killjoy00 wrote:Separate and both test on their own strength.

Wrong – only templates and template using spells affect both the hero and his beast.

Dwellers has no template but rather hits each model once, and the hero and beast are one model.

And this is when the rules for charracteristic tests kick in – use highest.

That is incorrect a character on a ridden monster are one unit, but two models that create one unit. They would each take a strength test if hit by dwellers below. Now if he was on a monstrous beast then you would only make one test.

Correct, Sol.

Sol wrote:That is incorrect a character on a ridden monster are one unit, but two models that create one unit.

Ahem, BRB page 105:
Shooting at ridden monsters
As a single model, the monster and the rider are considered to be a single target...

And then it goes on to explain how you randomise hits and templates hit both of em.

So even tho a char and his mount can act without each other, they are still one model when together.

Edit: Not only that, but to have a char and his mount be two models with one unit they both need to have bases that then need to be alligned to each other – as per the definitions of model (page 3) and unit (page 5) in the BRB

This is a direct damage spell not shooting. You do not randomize, it hits the whole unit. A unit with characters in it would have to make all the characters strength test, and they would not get any look out sirs or randomize either. With a ridden monster the monster and the rider are a unit and they both have to test it is very clear in the BRB on page 105, and in the Lore of Life description of dwellers below.

No its not, dweller dosent use a template, and thats the only way any attack can affect both monster and rider - per the same page you gave.

This one may need to be FAQed.

Sol wrote:This is a direct damage spell not shooting. You do not randomize, it hits the whole unit. A unit with characters in it would have to make all the characters strength test, and they would not get any look out sirs or randomize either. With a ridden monster the monster and the rider are a unit and they both have to test it is very clear in the BRB on page 105, and in the Lore of Life description of dwellers below.

Not only that but no matter how you strech the rules for ridden monsters you can't change the fact that it is one model, and dwellers only causes one hit per model, so there's no legal way for it to cause two hits on the same model.
Also make sure you read page 5 of the BRB to see what a unit is.

Edit: Characters that have joined units are hit because they are separate models, a character and his mount aren't separate models. Heck the way you connect joined characters to monster riders it makes it possible for a char to jump off his dragon and move on his own.

Heck the way you connect joined characters to monster riders it makes it possible for a char to jump off his dragon and move on his own.

Which he can in fact do. As long as the monster is dead...

Yes but he still is one model then too, regardless of the condition of both monster and hero they are allways one model with one base, even if one dies.

You make one test using the best score possible. Riders and their monster have always been considered one model, the template thing is the only thing that lets you hit them both.

I am not stretching any rules they both have to test read the rules and read the spell it is clear as day. The unit has to take strength test so that means they both do. If you shot normal shots at a ridden monster they all can be hit, a cannon balls hits both rider and mount same with a template even if it only touches the back corner of the base. You are the one trying to stretch the rules, and it won't fly with anyone competitively. If you don't want them both taking strength test then put your lord on a griffon or great eagle because a ridden monster gives you no special protection other then from normal shooting, i.e. bows, have to be randomized.

You act like your interpretation is the only correct one.

It could easily be interpreted either way. It specifically says it counts as one model. The only place in the rulebook where it says you can hit both is with template weapons and cannon shots.

This is something you will HAVE to get clarified with your opponent or TO before the match.

Sol - it specifies every *model* in the unit.

Please show where the rider and mount are seperate models. Hint: the rulebook contradicts you on this, so good luck!

Hover boys arguement makes more sence

pg. 105 under the general heading Ridden Monsters - " Whilst a cavalry model is treated as a single model for the purposes of hitting and wounding, a character and his ridden monster can be attacked separately."

The only part that says they are a single model is for non-template shooting. Generally, they are considered separate. Dweller's below is not a non-template shooting attack - therefore it affects them separately.

Killjoy00 wrote:pg. 105 under the general heading Ridden Monsters - " Whilst a cavalry model is treated as a single model for the purposes of hitting and wounding, a character and his ridden monster can be attacked separately."

The only part that says they are a single model is for non-template shooting. Generally, they are considered separate. Dweller's below is not a non-template shooting attack - therefore it affects them separately.

Except the attacked separately part is talking about close combat, where you can single out the rider or his mount.

Later it says "as a single model, the monster and its rider are considered to be a single target"

I can leave out rules from that page as it suites my argument too.

The ability to attack them separately dosent magically split them into two models, they are still one model, albeit one with complex rules.
So anything that hits once per model can't hit both.
Templates are able to do it due to having express permission, dwellers dosent.

Shivan - the language I quoted is not from a specific header. It is the general header entitled "Ridden monsters." The language you are citing is under the header "Shooting at ridden monsters." Header are relevant and leaving them out is much more dishonest than my accurate citation.

Killjoy00 wrote:Shivan - the language I quoted is not from a specific header. It is the general header entitled "Ridden monsters." The language you are citing is under the header "Shooting at ridden monsters." Header are relevant and leaving them out is much more dishonest than my accurate citation.

As good as your argument is, it can't change the fact that if the spell causes tests on both, then it caused 2 on one model, which clearly brakes the rules for dwellers below.
How is that "honest"?

Edit: I've said before and ill say it again – knowing the rules isn't, enough you need to understand how they interact with each other.
Wich basically means that you eliminate answers untill you find the one that doesn't brake any rules.

I'm not "braking" any rule, nor breaking any. The rules clearly say that, in contrast to cavalry models which are one models, Ridden Monsters are not.

It says its considered a single model for hitting and wounding, meaning that in combat you can choose which to attack, unlike calvary you attack the whole thing...

The thing is still one model, it just has 2 components.

The dwellers below hits every model once, therefore once it makes ONE ATTACK its done.

Killjoy00 wrote:I'm not "braking" any rule, nor breaking any.

Yea causing a spell that causes one test per model to caust two is compleetly legit
Oh and i shall trump you'r "grammar lawyer" card with my "non-native english speaker"

On BoLS we came to the conclusion that it affected the whole mode as one and you tested against the highest strength value. If they passed, they both lived, if they failed, they both died.

^This. Characters and the models that they ride are never defined as two separate models, but that they can be attacked/hit separately. Page 10 of the BRB is clear what should be done.

Well someone beat me to it, page 105. We already play it where they both test, and our TO for prelims and semis have made the call that it effects both. I haven't run into anyone that thinks differently. I know they are one model, but they can be targeted individually. Take The Fate of Bjuna as another example you can just target the rider with it and snipe him, or her. The rule book says on page 105 they can be attacked separately, and there is nothing that says only in close combat.

Sol wrote:Well someone beat me to it, page 105. We already play it where they both test, and our TO for prelims and semis have made the call that it effects both. I haven't run into anyone that thinks differently. I know they are one model, but they can be targeted individually. Take The Fate of Bjuna as another example you can just target the rider with it and snipe him, or her. The rule book says on page 105 they can be attacked separately, and there is nothing that says only in close combat.

Again i say, it breaks the rules for dwellers by causing two tests on a single model.

Edit: Oh and your TO is free to impose whatever rules he want in his tournament, he can even allow ambushers to charge when they come in or something simillary rulebraking, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Sol - as was pointed out, what your local TO does is entirely unimportant, your local TO can decide to ban all armies with pink models and that would be fine - their tournament, their rules.

However if you are imposing 2 tests on 1 model you have broken the rule for the spell, which only allows 1 test on each model. You must Break No Rule (unless given explicit permssion) and therefore you CANNOT force 2 tests IF you want to actually follow rules.

Houserule it however you like, RAW it is one test per model, so that is exactly what you do.

Yeah it seemed pretty clear to me.

Dwellers below states every model.
guy on dragon (or anything) is considered to be a Single model.

They take 1 test.