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Ok so an interesting rules disscussion came about in tactics and I thought that rather than clog up some guys tactics thread I'd bring it over here.

In a nutshell : 'Can a cavalry or beast unit move on/assault upper floor in ruins'

and here is the disscussion so far

Monster Rain wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:

The Strange Dude wrote:You Know what every ponce in power armour riding a drooling doggy hates? Not being invited to the party. Remember that as cavalry TWC can NOT enter CC on anything but the ground floor, so set squads up so they can't be assaulted and ignore them, use any spare firepower at them(after dealing with more pressing Priority targets) and kill em with attrition.

Incorrect. Nothing in 5th edition restricts Cavalry or Beasts from entering buildings or going beyond the first floor of ruins.

I think you'll find, upon reading the rules for ruins, that you are mistaken.

Monster Rain wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Monster Rain:

The Rulebook, The Rules Section: Unit Types, Beasts & Cavalry, p.54 wrote:Movement
Beasts and cavalry move like Infantry.
...
Assault
Otherwise, they assault just like Infantry

The rules for ruins.

I'd give you the page, but the BRB is in the car and my wife has it.

The Strange Dude wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:You mean these rules:

The Rulebook, The Rules Section: Buildings, Moving Within Ruins, p.83 wrote:Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can be physically placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin.

So I can see why you might think that this prohibits Beasts and Cavalry from moving to and on the upper levels of a ruin so long as you ignore the movement rules for Beasts and Cavalry, but since Beasts and Cavalry move like Infantry and Infantry can move to and on the upper levels of a ruin, so can Beasts and Cavalry.

Moves LIKE infantry is not the same as being infantry. only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers can access upper levels not Cavalry or Beasts.

It's a similar argument to the Hive Tyrant with wings 'moving like jump infantry' not being allowed to deepstrike as that is an ability of jump infantry.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:You mean these rules:

The Rulebook, The Rules Section: Buildings, Moving Within Ruins, p.83 wrote:Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can be physically placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin.

So I can see why you might think that this prohibits Beasts and Cavalry from moving to and on the upper levels of a ruin so long as you ignore the movement rules for Beasts and Cavalry, but since Beasts and Cavalry move like Infantry and Infantry can move to and on the upper levels of a ruin, so can Beasts and Cavalry.

Well....they can move as infantry all they want. However, the rule explicitly states what unit types are allowed to move at all;

only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin

So it really doesn't matter how the unit/model moves, simply if it fits the unit allowances laid out in the ruins rule. Which beasts do not.



Now, if the rule stated "Only units that move as infantry, jump infantry, etc"...then I would agree.

Nurglitch wrote:Now if we were talking about anything else except movement, I would agree, but the rules are specifically covering movement within ruins. Cavalry and Beasts are Infantry for the purposes of moving within ruins, much like Infantry are Infantry for the purposes of moving within ruins.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Nurglitch wrote: Cavalry and Beasts are Infantry for the purposes of moving within ruins, much like Infantry are Infantry for the purposes of moving within ruins.

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Where does it state cavalry and beasts are infantry for the purposes of if they are allowed to move on upper levels in ruins?

I honestly ask as I'm confused. The rule does not refer to movement types, it refers to unit types "infantry, jump infantry, etc.."...then even goes on to further state

"Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

The Strange Dude wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:AgeOfEgos:

The rules for movement within ruins is about movement, and the rules for Cavalry and Beasts tell us that those units are Infantry for the purposes ofmovement. I would have thought the connection was clear enough.

tankthecwb:

A swing and a most palpable miss.

The rules for cavalry and beasts say that they move as infantry in assaults (I presume this is in regards to pile ins, Ic etc) but at no point do they become infantry. The rules in ruins does not state cavalry or beasts (or vechiles or bikes)as being able to move on upper floors therefore they can't. Why have a list of things that can assault on upper floors and exclude cavalry and beasts unless they are meant to be excluded?

I was going to post, but my arguments are all up there!

Ninja'd by myself from the past!

I'll just say that there is a list of the unit types that are allowed to move upward in ruins. Cavalry are not on that list.

No. Page 83, left column, Moving Within Ruins, first paragraph gives you exactly what unit types may enter upper levels of ruins and beasts/cavalry are not one of them.

Edit: further clarification has a unit type moving like another unit type irrelevant. The whole list consist of all but one entry that moves like infantry, as such if the rules meant that units that "move like infantry" may enter there then the rules would've said so. Also, please note that all units move like infantry unless expressly stated otherwise and the only unit type that does not move like infantry are vehicles (walkers excluded).

The first paragraph on pg. 83 says it all.

Page 83 is explicit and very clear.

Apparently GW staffers never seen Braveheart when Mel rides his horse right up thru the building and out the window!

General_Chaos wrote:Apparently GW staffers never seen Braveheart when Mel rides his horse right up thru the building and out the window!

We can't hold Mel Gibson to the same standards as mortal men.

Step 1: Place a multi-story ruin in your deployment zone and place a unit of cavalry on the third floor during deployment.
Step 2: Argue about whether "unable to move on" means that the terrain is impassible.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit

Step 3 is "Invest in handicapped accessible ramps for your ruins."

Perfect for your handicapped cavalry needs. Where's that picture of Segway-riding Rough-Riders?

Of course cavalry can't move up into the upper floors of ruins. says so right in ye olde rule book.