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Per the rule book, a unit that disembarks a vehicle under emergency disembarkation is "deployed" anywhere less than 2" from the vehicle.

Most people assume that if you stack the bases of your models all the way around the vehicle this prevents emergency disembarkation as you can not get more than 1" away from an enemy and within 2" of the vehicle.

well geometry says there is 1/16" that you can do this.

assuming
round base size = 1.0"
the attacking base is in base contact with the vehicle as required by the rules.
attacking models are in base contact with each other as well as the vehicle.

we get a diagram like the attachment.



we know for a fact that each base is 1" so the center of the base is .5" from the edge of the vehicle. and the base has a radius of .5" we also know that the distance from the vehicle is 2". so if you take a line perpendicular to the vehicle and tangent to the base this gives you a right triangle with sides of .5" and 1.5" which is placed .5" from the vehicle.

so the question is is the 3rd side of the triangle > 1.5" if so then the point at the tip of the triangle is less or equal to 2" from the edge of the vehicle, and more than 1.5" from the center of the base.

.5^2 + 1.5^2 = c^2
.25 + 2.25 = c^2
2.5 = c^2
squareroot(2.5) = c
1.58 = c

So if you assume that the bases are touching the vehicle and the bases are touching each perfectly all the way around the vehicle there is a point that is .08" or slightly more than 1/16 (0.0625)" away from all enemy models and within 2" of the vehicle.

now lets go the other direction to prove that there is a point less than 2" from the vehicle and more than 1.5" from the center of the base.

in this case we know that a = .5" and c=1.5" we do not know b + .5" (radius of the base in base contact with the vehicle).
.5^2 + b^2 = 1.5^2
.25 + b^2 = 2.25
b^2 = 2
b = 1.41

from this we know now that the distance from the vehicle at which we are 1" from the enemy model is 1.91" from the vehicle. again there is a place that is more than 1" from the enemy and less than 2" from the vehicle.

Now I get the picture in my mind of imperial guardsmen jumping over orks to the music from Ferris Bueler's Day Off when he is jumping the fence trying to get home.

Or have more than one layer of infantry, leaving no space.

Easily done with 2 units charging in. Or just surrounding them in shooting and killling the vehicle then.

Disembarking is a form of non-standard movement as indicated by the fact that the rules for disembarking say that models who disembark from a vehicle that has already moved may not 'move any further'...clearly indicating that disembarking counts as movement.

Therefore, models that are disembarking cannot break the normal restrictions for moving, namely moving through impassable terrain and/or through areas that would bring them within 1" of an enemy model.

So yes, if a vehicle is surrounded by enemy models touching the vehicle then the unit onboard will also be destroyed when the vehicle is destroyed.

I hope someone makes this argument against you. You can't move through models anyway.

yakface wrote:
Disembarking is a form of non-standard movement as indicated by the fact that the rules for disembarking say that models who disembark from a vehicle that has already moved may not 'move any further'...clearly indicating that disembarking counts as movement.

Therefore, models that are disembarking cannot break the normal restrictions for moving, namely moving through impassable terrain and/or through areas that would bring them within 1" of an enemy model.

So yes, if a vehicle is surrounded by enemy models touching the vehicle then the unit onboard will also be destroyed when the vehicle is destroyed.

according to the rulebook i have it says that "emergency deployment" the unit is "deployed" not moved. it also says they can perform no other actions on the following turn.

lixulana wrote:

yakface wrote:
Disembarking is a form of non-standard movement as indicated by the fact that the rules for disembarking say that models who disembark from a vehicle that has already moved may not 'move any further'...clearly indicating that disembarking counts as movement.

Therefore, models that are disembarking cannot break the normal restrictions for moving, namely moving through impassable terrain and/or through areas that would bring them within 1" of an enemy model.

So yes, if a vehicle is surrounded by enemy models touching the vehicle then the unit onboard will also be destroyed when the vehicle is destroyed.

according to the rulebook i have it says that "emergency deployment" the unit is "deployed" not moved. it also says they can perform no other actions on the following turn.

Units that move onto the table from Reserve are also being 'deployed' (it says that in the rules)...so models can clearly be deploying onto the table and still be moving, which they are in this case.

Again, as I pointed out, when models disembark from a vehicle that has already moved they are not allowed to 'move any further'. Ergo, disembarking is movement.

on reserves
"When a unit arrives, it must move onto the table" - p94 BBB

so reserves does not apply because they are explicitly moved onto the table, not deployed.


"If any models cannot
disembark because of enemies or because they would
end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an
'emergency disembarkation' - the models are deployed
anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull, but the unit
can't do anything else for the rest of the turn." - p67 BBB

apparently "deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicle" isnt clear.

the point you mention is listed in the sub paragraph but in my rule book it still doesnt say that they "move" it does say that they cant move.

"If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting
on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but
not move any further in that Movement phase.
Once the models have disembarked, the vehicle
may not move any further (including pivoting on
the spot). After disembarking, these models may
shoot (counting as moving), but may not assault" - p67 BBB

going further..

the next paragraph explicitly says that if the vehicle has not moved they deploy & move normally.

therefore disembarkation is not movement.

"may not move any further"

If you cannot move any further, you must have moved already.

It also says that you "count as moving" - therefore follows the same restrictions as movement.

yes for the purposes of shooting they count as moving that is 100% correct.

that still doesnt change "deploy" vs "move".

as the unit is not on the table at the time of the "deployment" they cant be moved. which is why there are rules for if the vehicle has moved and the vehicle has not moved and the status of the unit.

if deployment was movement, the second sub paragraph would not exist because you could not deploy then move normally.


Where's gwar when you need him.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or have more than one layer of infantry, leaving no space.

Easily done with 2 units charging in. Or just surrounding them in shooting and killling the vehicle then.

Or simply have the surrounding models 1.5" from the vehicle and 1" apart.

Scott-S6 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or have more than one layer of infantry, leaving no space.

Easily done with 2 units charging in. Or just surrounding them in shooting and killling the vehicle then.

Or simply have the surrounding models 1.5" from the vehicle and 1" apart.

yep.

i'm only addressing the scenario where the models are B2B with the vehicle in assault and not more than one deep and on 1" bases.

can you emergency disembark onto the vehicle itself? dangerous terrain tests needed im guessing ... unless it doesnt count as movinG

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:can you emergency disembark onto the vehicle itself? dangerous terrain tests needed im guessing ... unless it doesnt count as movinG

Hmmm.... I've never considered this before. My gut reaction is that this is a legit move. In fact, because the top of the vehicle has to be unoccupied (since before the vehicle was wrecked, it was impassible terrain), you can probably deploy within 2" of the exit doors and NOT have to do an emergency disembark.

Edit: I am incorrect, see next post(s) for details.

No, you cannot emergency disembark on to the vehicle.

The vehicle is not "wrecked" until AFTER the unit has disembarked. Therefore at the point you disembark the vehicle is still impassable terrain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you cannot emergency disembark on to the vehicle.

The vehicle is not "wrecked" until AFTER the unit has disembarked. Therefore at the point you disembark the vehicle is still impassable terrain.

nosferatu has it 100%. Read page 67 BRB under "Effects of damage results on passengers'.
When the transport is destroyed-wrecked the passengers must immediately disembark, then take a pinning test. If they can't disembark they are destroyed. After this, the destroyed vehicle becomes a wreck, it is at that point it is difficult and dangerous terrain.

can you emergency disembark onto the vehicle itself? dangerous terrain tests needed im guessing ... unless it doesnt count as movinG

No vehicles are impassible terrain and it does not become a wreck until after you have deployed...

but as i have said originally,

with "emergency disembarkation" not "disembarkaction" the unit is deployed anywhere within 2" of the hull AND more than 1" from the enemy.

so under the conditions where

the attackers are 1 man deep on 1" bases in base to base with the vehicle. there is more than 1/16" (which is .0625" and the open space is .0799999999") of space that is a valid disembark point. for the unit inside.

for a game where you cant shoot because something is the thickness of a sheet of paper to far away, 1/16" is more than enough space.

with "emergency disembarkation" not "disembarkaction" the unit is deployed anywhere within 2" of the hull AND more than 1" from the enemy.

If it is not movement as you assertain then why do you need to be 1" away from the enemy? The 1" rule only applies to movement not to deployment. That is why people with special deployment always have written into their rule that they have to be placed more than 1" away (eg Marbo, deathleaper etc). By your assertation that it is not movement then the 1" thing is redundant and you have an entire 1" to place the models.

Except it is movement, as you cannot move any futher OR you count as moving. EIther way the 1" restriction kicks in.

Except it is movement, as you cannot move any futher OR you count as moving. EIther way the 1" restriction kicks in.

If it is movement then they can't move through the unit to get to that clear space. So either it is movement and you can't get there or it isn't movement and the geometry is irrelevant as you don't have to stay more than 1" away. Which was my point.

Essentially his interpretation is consistent with itself.

first this occurs during the assault phase not the movement phase, therefore the 1" rule from movement is not applicable because the 1" movement rule only applies during the movement phase. and models during the assault phase are allowed to be within 1" of the enemy.

"Models cannot disembark within 1 " of an enemy." -p 67 BBB, this is explicitly a requirement for all disembarkations it has nothing to do with movement of any kind.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:

Except it is movement, as you cannot move any futher OR you count as moving. EIther way the 1" restriction kicks in.

If it is movement then they can't move through the unit to get to that clear space. So either it is movement and you can't get there or it isn't movement and the geometry is irrelevant as you don't have to stay more than 1" away. Which was my point. ref p95 under deep strike mishaps.



Essentially his interpretation is consistent with itself.

but you deploy the unit not move the unit.

just like deep striking, you dont take the mishap because you deviated 12" to the other side of the unit even though you move the token across the enemy unit, you take the mishap because you cant "deploy" (place) your models more than 1" away.

also the movement restriction has additional effects like running would be prohibited. where as a deep striking unit can run during the shooting phase.

so basically its this : deployment is placeing the models on the table. deployment is not the models executing a movement on the table.

just like the deployment phase of the game, the models are placed on the table, they are not executing a move on the table to get to their location.

the 1" rule applies ANY TIME you move, even if this is in the assault phase. The ONLY exception is when you are making an ASSAULT move, this is NOT an assault move.

For example Run, which occurs in the Shooting phase, still restricts you from moving within 1".

but your not "moving the models" your "deploying the models" not within 1" of the enemy.

so again it comes down to is "deployment" movement?

i say deployment is not movement, because nothing i can find in the book says that you "move the unit" or "move the model" to deploy. the rules for deployment are you place the models for deployment anywhere on the table within the restrictions given for deployment. but as i noted earlier reserves explicitly say that you move the model. emergency disembarkation no where says you move the model, it does say you "deploy" the model and that you have restrictions on what you can do after the model is deployed.

if you have specific rules entries where it says deployment is movement please quote rule and page. Interestingly enough i cant find a single rule on "how" you deploy. even in the deployment section other than it says things like "He then deploys his force in his half of the table, with all models more than 12" away from the table's middle line (this is is 'deployment zone')." - p92 BBB

so i guess technically deployment is broken because there is no rule to let you place your models on the table.

lixulana wrote:but your not "moving the models" your "deploying the models" not within 1" of the enemy.

so again it comes down to is "deployment" movement?

yakface wrote:Units that move onto the table from Reserve are also being 'deployed' (it says that in the rules)...so models can clearly be deploying onto the table and still be moving, which they are in this case.

Again, as I pointed out, when models disembark from a vehicle that has already moved they are not allowed to 'move any further'. Ergo, disembarking is movement.

kirsanth wrote:

lixulana wrote:but your not "moving the models" your "deploying the models" not within 1" of the enemy.

so again it comes down to is "deployment" movement?

yakface wrote:Units that move onto the table from Reserve are also being 'deployed' (it says that in the rules)...so models can clearly be deploying onto the table and still be moving, which they are in this case.

Again, as I pointed out, when models disembark from a vehicle that has already moved they are not allowed to 'move any further'. Ergo, disembarking is movement.

the only time the term deploy is used in the reserve section always refers to the begining of the game before/during initial deployment and opting to keep units in reserve.

under "Arriving from reserve"

"When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the ...." - p94 BBB please note that it does not say "deploy the unit"

Deepstriking also does mention deploy--in the reserves section.

Rolling for reserves itself mentions that the arriving units are deployed, and outflanking references that the units are moved onto the table in the same manner as other reserves --which are deployed.

Yet you are, explicitly, told you count as moving (so, disembarking makes you move) OR that you cannot move any further - meaning again, you have moved.

It does not have to say "moved" for you to have actually moved, hence the wording afterwards.

lixulana wrote:

the only time the term deploy is used in the reserve section always refers to the begining of the game before/during initial deployment and opting to keep units in reserve.

under "Arriving from reserve"

"When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the ...." - p94 BBB please note that it does not say "deploy the unit"

Pg 94: "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the unit arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."


As you can see, models arriving from Reserves are being deployed on the table BY moving onto the table. Deploying and moving are not some sort of polar opposites that cannot be combined together.


Second, as you continue to ignore the rules for disembarking say that models who disembark cannot move ANY FURTHER. Any further means that the models have already moved by disembarking.

Disembarking is movement and therefore you cannot disembark 'through' enemy models or impassable terrain.

I applaud you for trying to find a loop hole. I respect it. alot. but sorry, it says clear as day that an "emergency disembark" is a type of disembark. the difference between a regular and an emergency is that you get 2 inches within the transports area instead of the access point. which means that the other rules apply for said unit. I give an A for effort though....