Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I recently started playing warhammer 40k and me and one of my friends decided to split the black reach set. I have expanded on that since and have made a pretty solid army.

However the more research I do the more I regret painting my models blue. from what I can see, the codex marines are inferior to both of the current alternate space marine armies. I mean, all the blood angels vehicles are fast, and space wolves can take 4 hq choices? I just feel kind of ripped off.

So what I am getting at is, what sort of advantages to codex space marines offer that I can take advantage of?

well.... its true that they're generally considered less powerful than space wolves or blood angels. however this difference in power only becomes apparent at high levels of play. if you're just starting I wouldn't worry about it. if you grasp tactics and good unit selection with codex marines and your opponent with wolves or blood angels doesnt you're going to beat him every time.

these are the units you want to look at for codex: space marines.
1. vulkan hestan - an awesome fighter, not terribly expensive, and he gives you a very powerful ability. If you're just starting it's hard for me to explain whats so ridiculously good about twin linking melta guns and flamers. just trust me its really good you want to do it. and you want to bring a bunch of flamers and meltas.
2. lysander - one of the strongest hand to hand fighters in the game right now. also a good buy for what he does.
3. librarian
4. command squad. because their wargear options are so good.
5. assault terminators with thunder hammers
6. stern guard with combi weapons
7. land speeders with multi melta and heavy flamer
8. vindicators
9. drop pods
10. razor backs

the junk in your codex is:
1. chapter master
2. scouts
3. tacticals
(notice how that's your whole troop selection? sad but true, your troops choices are garbage in codex marines)
4. rhinos
5. vanguard vets

I might be forgetting one or two good units and somebody will probably be all pissed about my list of junk units but whatever. there it is.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
your strongest strategy is to take vulkan + every flamer and melta weapon you can pack into the list, then drop pod on top of them and roast your enemies like a bag of marshmellows.

I have to disagree with you, there. At tournament levels, yeah, you wanna spam the options listed above. But at friendly levels of play, scouts and Tac squads are hardly garbage. Sure, you don't have Zerkers in Rhinos for troop choices, but ten power-armored commandos chilling out on an objective, popping vehicles with their free missile launcher and roasting anything that gets close with the free flamer is certainly nothing to sneeze at. Not to mention the fact that it's always fun to watch and see what your friend does when you change lists and throw 50 or 60 power armored bodies out on the field in a 1500 point game. Tough to handle in any setting.

The thing about codex marines is that you don't have any Mephiston units that can run around by themselves, taking out everything. You need your army to be synergized, and for everything to support everything else. You wouldn't bring Scout-snipers in a list with 20 Assault marines and a vindicator, but you would definitely consider them in a list with a Thunderfire cannon and some Las-predators. Think of codex marines as sort of a baseline army. Where some armies are all focused on assault or on shooting, you aren't focused on anything. You're a jack of all trades. That means you're never going to outshoot a Guard army, and you're never going to out-assault Blood angels. Just exploit your opponent's weaknesses. Fighting parking lot IG? Throw 20 power armored bodies with jump packs and melta bombs in his face. Facing DE, who wanna get up close real fast? Hello rifleman dread and mobile gunline. You've got the answer to everything in that dex, you just have to be very adaptable. The adaptability of codex marines are why I've stuck by them through all the other exciting new dexes that have come out since. There's nothing flashy, and no one particular 'always use this' build, but there is an answer to everything in that book.

Oh, and as far as MCs go, and I only mention them because they were my hardest thing to deal with when I was just starting out, mass bolter fire should bring it down, and if it doesn't, throw some termies spilling out of a LR at it, that tends to kill anything and everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and one last thing, definitely listen to the above poster about Vanguard Vets. I've taken everything in the codex at one point or another, just to see how I like them, except for Vanguard Vets. For their price, they're garbage.

putting half a company or even a full company of marines presents a challenge to armies that rely on volume of attack strategies. but all that power armor doesnt do you much good in other situations. for instance at the last tournament I attended I watched 25 SW terminators carve through a full company of marines in a 2000 vs 2000 point match. the guy who fielded the company of marines based his whole thinking on volume of attacks, both as an offensive and a defensive strategy. I dont think it works very well personally... its quality not quantity that wins games in the current meta.

tacticals are fine for friendly play I guess. but they really are pretty poor in terms of capabilities, considering what you pay for. w/e. you're paying 16 points a man for a guy whose main advantage - a 3+ armor save - is largely nullified by the easy access to 4++ cover that everyone else enjoys. basically you're paying out the for a slightly improved version of what everyone else gets for free. that's not ok. but yeah w/e run them for your friendly games if you want. I play pretty cut throat so I dont have any room for these guys.



your main advantage as a marine player is your mobility and flexibility. use drop pods and razorbacks. never walk. never use a rhino. AF

Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit. They get a heavy weapon for one thing and with combat squads and combat tactics they are very flexible. Unlike SW or BA you can't rely on your troops to carry your army, Tacticals are a great core to build an army round but will need some help from the specialists to deal with powerful units (you can't take 6 Tacticals at 2000pts and expect to do well). Certainly Tacticals are orders of magnitude better options than Tau, Eldar or any of the older codices troop options.

Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

Scouts certainly aren't great, but if all you want is a unit to grab an objective and don't care about damage output then they can do that for cheaper than Tacticals can.

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

C:SM is very playable and still one of the top codexes. What really separates them from BA and SW is:
- Librarian, null zone
- Biker troops
- Combat tactics

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
the junk in your codex is:
1. chapter master

It's a captain that has improved stats and has orbital bombardment. For only 25 more points. worth it.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
2. scouts
3. tacticals
(notice how that's your whole troop selection? sad but true, your troops choices are garbage in codex marines)

Scouts are one of my most useful units. Give them meltabombs and infiltrate near a tank. POW.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
4. rhinos

Very useful. I was confident in a game cos' i was playing a CSM player, and I had 4 plasma deverstators. He had them all in rhinos. He probably saved about 15 men with that.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
5. vanguard vets

They are one of my favorite units. Drop a locator beacon, pow, they appear, and meltabomb any tank you care to mention. for 200pts they can easily kill a LR.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
I might be forgetting one or two good units and somebody will probably be all pissed about my list of junk units but whatever. there it is.

I am.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
your strongest strategy is to take vulkan + every flamer and melta weapon you can pack into the list, then drop pod on top of them and roast your enemies like a bag of marshmellows.

Don't forget to take TH/SS termies and lysander in that.

I wouldnt rate Tacts as pure junk.

I was rather wondering whyd you list the Vanguard vets as 5th, as i would say theyre the crappiest of the bunch. Just say no to vanguard.

Scouts with sniper rifles. If your enemy happens to bring Wraith lords or big nid bugs, they are worth their points.

Chapter Master is ok if you buy his guard option. But that is normally becoming real expensive real fast, and isnt good for tourneys, but in friendly play theyre fun to use.

And Rhinos arent junk, this is 5th ed, live by mech, die by the mech. If you play footslogger you either ave a very good plan (Shoot em all to hell works/Deep strike shenanigans) or you set yourself up for a hard game.

Might have to agree about the chapter master. You could get cassius or something with those points. Sure you can get them honor guard but then you have quite a few points tied into HQ's. It kind of surprised me that BA players complained about their lack of generic chapter master option.

Ofcourse vanilla marines have access to some units others don't. Ironclads can be very effective. Thunderfire cannons are cheap for what they do, but require other targets to attract fire away from them. Master of the Forge allows you to take dreads in two slots. This combos nicely with ironclads I mentioned earlier. 6 Ironclads provide a bucketload of av13 and hunterkiller missiles.

There are also some very good comments above and I won't repeat them. To play C:SM well, you have to play to their strengths, i.e. those units and abilities that only they get, or they do best.

Well from my experiences of fighting codex SM I'd have to say that sniper scouts with camo cloaks can easily make their points back (or atleast annoy the living hell out of someone) As for the chaptermaster umm he isnt all that expensive just dont overdo it seriously you dont need every option he has, also his orbital bombardment can do some serious damage (hero sniping too) you only get it once so make it count but good use of it can make your chapermasters points back.

Vulkan is really good, this guy is just plain good nothing more need be said. Put him in a command squad with an apothecary (yes youd have to buy a captain) but him with that feel no pain is badass (I've faced it definately freaking hard to takedown) and like AbaddonFidelis said you can pod people in and roast everything

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

Powerguy wrote:
Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

rhinos dont do their main job - providing mobility to the squad - very well because they constantly get zapped by autocannons meltaguns lascannons etc. you need a more reliable mobility option.

Scouts certainly aren't great, but if all you want is a unit to grab an objective and don't care about damage output then they can do that for cheaper than Tacticals can.

rhetorical question.... why take a unit that isnt great... if you dont have to? isnt a great army made up of great units? so if you take just ok units arent you going to end up with a just ok army....?

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voronesh wrote:I wouldnt rate Tacts as pure junk.

I was rather wondering whyd you list the Vanguard vets as 5th, as i would say theyre the crappiest of the bunch. Just say no to vanguard.

I just listed in order they occurred to me. no particular reason they're 5th.

And Rhinos arent junk, this is 5th ed, live by mech, die by the mech. If you play footslogger you either ave a very good plan (Shoot em all to hell works/Deep strike shenanigans) or you set yourself up for a hard game.

*mech* is good. its *rhinos* you want to avoid. dead rhino = dead squad. rhino is av11.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

Powerguy wrote:
Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

rhinos dont do their main job - providing mobility to the squad - very well because they constantly get zapped by autocannons meltaguns lascannons etc. you need a more reliable mobility option.

Scouts certainly aren't great, but if all you want is a unit to grab an objective and don't care about damage output then they can do that for cheaper than Tacticals can.

rhetorical question.... why take a unit that isnt great... if you dont have to? isnt a great army made up of great units? so if you take just ok units arent you going to end up with a just ok army....?

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voronesh wrote:I wouldnt rate Tacts as pure junk.

I was rather wondering whyd you list the Vanguard vets as 5th, as i would say theyre the crappiest of the bunch. Just say no to vanguard.

I just listed in order they occurred to me. no particular reason they're 5th.

And Rhinos arent junk, this is 5th ed, live by mech, die by the mech. If you play footslogger you either ave a very good plan (Shoot em all to hell works/Deep strike shenanigans) or you set yourself up for a hard game.

*mech* is good. its *rhinos* you want to avoid. dead rhino = dead squad. rhino is av11.
AF

And this folks, is what a BA fan boi sounds like.

OP: if you just want to win, and dont care about having fun with your friends, then sure paint them red, and start playing BA. Or paint them greyish and play SW. Both those armies are REALLY good and are much easier to win with. That doesnt mean that the C: SM are junk. Really, you can ignore most of what AF is saying about them. They do have some REALLY good units that kick alot of ass. Sternguard vets are the tits if you ask me. Ive had more then a few Orks slaughtered by those guys. They are as simple as loading them with combi-somethings, and then drop podding them into shoot the hell out of everything.

For fun games, the SM dex is plenty good. Hell Ive even seen then pop up in tourny games here and there and can still do well.Dont just jump ship because those other guys are easier to win with, unless thats your thing, then go ahead

coming from someone who actually uses the Vanilla Codex

Tactical marines arn't garbage. 16 points for 3+ save, ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, and what is probably the best infantry weapon in the game.

a ten man squad with a Combi-flamer on the Sergeant, a Flamer, and a missile launcher costs 180 points. you can split it into two different units. 1 with the sergeant and 4 marines with a flamer and the other with a missile launcher and 4 more marines.

the squad with the sergeant can go out, dump 2 flamer templates on an unsuspecting infantry unit along with 3 Bolt Pistol shots, and then assault home with 11 attacks. many infantry units can't handle 2 flame templates, 3 bolt pistol shots and then 11 attacks coming from PA bodies. all this time the other half has been sending out a missile each turn, either a frag blast for infantry or a Krak shot for tanks.


it may not be as flashy as Space Wolves or Blood Angels, but it certaintly is decent.

scouts are ok too. you can outflank a Power Fist and 9 bodies to protect it. a 12" threat to any vehicle from each board edge. scouts may not be as durable as regular marines, but they can put out more attacks and can handle anything that doesn't have PA.



Chapter masters and Captains are poor choices, but not because they themselves are bad. the issue is there are other HQs that are better, cheaper, and actually improve the rest of your army. Captains are decent at high point games if you want a command squad to spam special weapons and you can get another HQ to help your army.

I can personally oblige for the sternguard I've had many unwanted poded sternguard attacks ruin my day Still I wouldnt say your squads are junk yeah they arent fast or CC monsters but the thing is your natural T4 3+ makes it easy for you to hold objectives and openly attack, another thing C:SM can do very well is setup "kill zones" and combat squading them is even better for that and when I say killzones I mean setup a position you know your enemy has to go to where you can safely gun him down, also dont neglect your whirlwinds either they arent perfect but for 85 points those vengence missiles can easily make their points back with interest (S5 AP4, 12-48 inches, large blast, barrage, ordinance 1) thats some pretty decent artillery denying cover saves (which I do believe barrage things do) and I can also personally say they have also been able to ruin my day (or forced me to entirely change my tactics)

Also Grey Templar I'm gonna disagree on the chapter master, just give him artificer armor and a power weapon done. His orbital bombardment is really good (granted I dont play any Imperial Army but I fight them more than enough to know how brutal these things can be although there special heroes are worth looking at and trying)

yeah, but if i wanted orbital bombardment i would just take Pedro. he makes my army stubborn, Sternguard Scoring, a +1 attack bubble for everything near him, and he has the bombardment.

for just 50 points more.

Justify al you want with some extremely minor detail not shared with their offshoot brethren, they are just simply outclassed.

The advantage would be a purely self-esteem oriented thing, that you didn't do what so many others did and just start proxying all your guys into red or grey so you could enjoy the new flavor of cheese. From what I hear even old school (like RT old school) players who used to play SW are now getting an urge to play something else because they don't want to be lumped in the same category of bandwagon jumpers as the new puppies on the block.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, but if i wanted orbital bombardment i would just take Pedro. he makes my army stubborn, Sternguard Scoring, a +1 attack bubble for everything near him, and he has the bombardment.

for just 50 points more.

Oh I never knew that (then again I had never faced him) sounds pretty badass hopefully my friend will field him at some point so I can fight those changes.

Also Guitardain, we are kinda trying to help this person who plays C:SM (me personally I just fight them... ALOT) just because someone is having trouble or shaken faith in an army dosent mean you just say, your army sucks play this army instead, I mean dude that kinda leaves a bad taste for an army in somones mouth (hence I DO NOT play any imperial armies that and I plain dont like them to begin with) the point of even playing an army shouldnt be to have a signifigantly higher advantage or the best new cheese but to actually play something you enjoy. I mean dude lets face it before BA or SW even got their update and someone asked about them I'm willing to bet you'd be saying oh they suck go play C:SM instead so I mean what your saying isny very valid.

Sorry I can't help with the main question as I have often wondered the same thing.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

Powerguy wrote:
Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

rhinos dont do their main job - providing mobility to the squad - very well because they constantly get zapped by autocannons meltaguns lascannons etc. you need a more reliable mobility option.

Scouts certainly aren't great, but if all you want is a unit to grab an objective and don't care about damage output then they can do that for cheaper than Tacticals can.

rhetorical question.... why take a unit that isnt great... if you dont have to? isnt a great army made up of great units? so if you take just ok units arent you going to end up with a just ok army....?

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voronesh wrote:I wouldnt rate Tacts as pure junk.

I was rather wondering whyd you list the Vanguard vets as 5th, as i would say theyre the crappiest of the bunch. Just say no to vanguard.

I just listed in order they occurred to me. no particular reason they're 5th.

And Rhinos arent junk, this is 5th ed, live by mech, die by the mech. If you play footslogger you either ave a very good plan (Shoot em all to hell works/Deep strike shenanigans) or you set yourself up for a hard game.

*mech* is good. its *rhinos* you want to avoid. dead rhino = dead squad. rhino is av11.
AF

so...you are saying a 10 man, 155 point 2 meltagun squad with 30 attacks in almost every situation is junk...?

Also, Rhinoes are meant to get their cargo mid-field. Deploy 12 inches in, move 12, pop smoke. They just done their job.

more over, Have you not heard of the concept throw-away units? Like, an ork player bringing grots because they are cheap troop choices? for 75 points, scouts do their job of holding a point while being dirt cheap. Stop looking at things just for pure combat ability.\

The advantage of combat tactics is denying assault armies the ability to charge a unit they need dead. I have screwed over so many other players with that trick.

so, by your logic, raiders will suck, because they are base 25 points more and are AV 10 all around? The more and more I see what you have to say, the more I realize how little you know about the game.

AllergicToTyranids wrote:However the more research I do the more I regret painting my models blue. from what I can see, the codex marines are inferior to both of the current alternate space marine armies. I mean, all the blood angels vehicles are fast, and space wolves can take 4 hq choices? I just feel kind of ripped off.

Feeling ripped off for buying the book? Well, you'll want to know what they can do anyway. A good general is going to need to know each army's codex so you might end up buying most of the books.

Painting 'em blue? Don't sweat it. I'm not repainting my SM if I decide to use Space Wolves or BAs.

Besides, it's often the general that makes it work. Yesterday's 2k RTT was won with Chaos:SM:
Slaneesh winged DP w/ Lash
Another winged DP, maybe Khorne.
KhorneBs - rhino
Thousand sons - rhino
CSM - rhino
Havoc squad - MLs
3 Oblits
Dreadnought

Doesn't look entirely intimidating, does it? And it wasn't a fluke. This guy usually wins, regardless of the army he plays.

Yup, I mean yeah SW and BA have some nasty things and all but you have to realise you are in no way ripped off by playing C:SM it just takes some creativity and I'm more than certain you have creativity sometimes it takes the strangest things for a commander to achive the greatest victory

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

AF

LOLOLOL.

No. Just no. Grey Hunters are arguably the best troop choice in the game.

Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

AF

LOLOLOL.

No. Just no. Grey Hunters are arguably the best troop choice in the game.

GH are good but not the best

They certainly arent trash though, just different. They are not CC monsters though which everyone who praises them think they are. 24-12" is their range of expertise

Umm yeah Grey Hunters are pretty brutal just slap in a guy with mark of the wolfen and a power weapon and umm yeah they are good definately not junk but still they are in no way the greatest. Personally I'll vote DE warrior for best troop choice because I'm biased on that one Also AbaddonFidelis if you want to know what a good troop choice is it certainly isnt the BA assault marine I would say Khorne Berzerkers are better, much better

kenshin620 wrote:
GH are good but not the best

They certainly arent trash though, just different. They are not CC monsters though which everyone who praises them think they are. 24-12" is their range of expertise

Really? BP+CCW. +1A whether charging or being charged. Two power weapons, MotW, Wolf Standard. They're far, far better in CC than almost all other troop choices - and the ones they're not better in CC compared to, they're far better at shooting. They're an amazing unit.

Over glorifying them abit much? I mean it still is only ten guys and they arent cheap either, we arent saying they suck but I mean they are not the best still they are damn good.

Which is why a Plasma Cannon is a great thing for a Space Marine Tactical squad to tote around: It fries Space Wolves and Blood Angels and other Traitor alike from a safe distance.

Incidentally, and I cannot stress it enough: If you are regretting the army you bought because it isn't winning for you, then you suck as a player.

It's about your skill as a player, not the 'power' of the army.

See Brothererekose's excellent post on the subject.

AF you are a complete hypocrite. On the one hand, you say rhinos are bad because they are so easy to kill. On the other hand you list razorbacks as good - which are just as easy to kill, more expensive and can carry less troops. Your argument for why rhinos are bad would necessarily make razorbacks worse. Don't get me wrong, I think they are both good. Its just that your argument makes little sense.

He is right about a couple things though. Although this is more common internet wisdom then his own ingenuity. Chapter masters and vanguard vets are not worth the investment.

On the subject of command squads, its their weapon options that make them good. Although having to get a captain to take advantage of them means they aren't really that great.

Vulken is a strong strategy but is very one-dimensional. If you are going to fight an army that can eat you in CC, Vulken lists have a very hard time. Depending on the size of the list, a Libby+ assault terminator list I feel is stronger. Null zone is one of the best powers in the game. The psychic defense can help a lot too.

Lysander is a strong choice in the right list just like vulken. However Lysander's army won't be quite as one-dimensional, even if it doesn't pack the same close range shooting punch.

Landspeeders are good both with HF/MM and HB/Typhoon. Very different roles, but the Landspeeder is a good platform for both.

Predators are another great option he left off the list, I prefer the AC/Las for very reliable transport popping.

You'll find there are very few units in the codex that have no real value. I'd put the thundefire cannon and whirlwind in that list, if only because I don't think they have a place in a list designed to take on any opponent. Together with chapter master and vanguard vets, those 4 are really the only stuff to stay away from. Some people will disagree with me on the whirlwind/TF cannon, but I've always seen them fail horribly in competitive settings.

Tactical squads deserve addressing. They are not junk. They are just expensive and have little offensive output. Their main function is to hold objectives, so you should never forget that. The only upgrades you should give are ones that help them in this primary task. Sure, you could add that cheap lascannon if you have nothing else to spend the points on at the end of your list, but for the most part stuff like powerfists and power weapons are wasted on them. Also, when considering how many to take keep in mind that you only want them for holding objectives. As such, you should be taking the minimum your list needs to hold enough objectives to win games. For instance, I take 20 marines in 1500 points. I'd consider increasing that to 25 around the 2k mark.

Scouts have their own role in certain lists, but most lists won't need them. The only example I can think of is a Shrike list. Their lower BS makes them suboptimal most of the time for shooting roles. A 5 man sniper squad with cloaks and a heavy bolter are decent though @ 100 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its also important to note that I've seen people win with pretty much every codex. This game is a lot more about the player. List building certainly is part of player skill, but tactics at the board is really the most important thing.

ShadowZetki wrote:Over glorifying them abit much?

No.

I mean it still is only ten guys and they arent cheap either,

Yes, they are.

we arent saying they suck but I mean they are not the best still they are damn good.

What I was responding to was a point about them not being decent in CC - which could only have been said by someone who wasn't aware of their CC capabilities. Hence why I pointed them out.