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Basically i am fully aware of the short comings of Games workshop but i know nothing about the games produced by Privateer Press. Not really intersted in playing their games, because i don't like the art style/not entirely convinced by the setting, but some of the models are wonderful. I was just wondering what Fans have to say about Warmachine and Hordes etc. Are their games fun? Are the models too expensive? Are PP attentive to their fans? etc...

Boring games, not enough dice being chucked around, and an extremely patchy (not to mention repetitive 'oh look. Another giant monstery thing') model range.

Not for me ta.

I prefer my grand battles to Skirmish, and when I do do Skirmish, I like development through experience, and as far as I'm aware, PP games don't have experience trackers. Plus, what with the fixed characters, it's akin to a game of top trumps in my eyes.

I like their games and their models. My biggest problem is I just don't have the time to focus on another game when I have such a huge investment in GW and so many models still on deck to paint.

My suggestion would be to get someone to give you a couple of demo games, play it and see if you like it. It will be a big help if your local game shop or club has a lot of players who can help you get into it, but if you're the only one in your club trying a new game it might be tough to get new folks into it when you are barely into it yet yourself.

Mr Mystery wrote:Boring games

False. Very much a nail biting and tactically challenging game with lots of carnage and battling of player wits.

extremely patchy (not to mention repetitive 'oh look. Another giant monstery thing') model range.

Two words: Space marines

fixed characters, it's akin to a game of top trumps in my eyes.

Sort of like the special characters used rather heavily now in 40k...

I play both companie's games and am a fan of each for vastly different reasons:

40K: lots of models/mass combat, campaign/story potential, cool conversion/hobby options

WM: Easily the most strategically challenging miniatures skirmish game on the market. It is all about combos, synergy carnage and being aggressive.

40K is a hobbyist's game.

Wm is a Gamers game.

Note: WM plays a lot like M:TG in miniatures form. It is about the list building and the combos. IF ultra-competitive play does not interest you this might not be the game for you.


Also: You'd be much better served going to the Privateer Press forums and asking about the game there as opposed to going to what is essentially home turf for the biggest rival game. You are going to get the same reaction here as people do that ask about 40K there, and that isn't a good thing.

Ah yes. Clearly not enjoying the games makes my own personal opinion invalid.

Sorry, forgot I was on the internet for a second.

Seriously, I find the games a tad dull, for the very reasons CT Gamer enjoys them. Horses for Courses and all that.

One upswing to this of course, is that the boxed sets come with 'pick up' rules, keeping initial outlay relatively low. Quite a bonus there, as for the price of a handful of models, you can get some idea of whether you'll enjoy the game. Get two or three and you should have just enough variety to get others to try it.

Me, tried it, didn't like it.

Warmachine and Hordes are much more sophisticated games than 40k is. Not sure about fantasy; never played it. Because you're not just throwing lots of dice around, each decision you make is that much more important, doubly so with all the available combos in the game.

I've come to appreciate both games for different reasons after being pulled in hard by Warmachine. 40k's a more relaxing, just messing around game, where you have to think during a game of WM. I still highly prefer WM over 40k, but an occasional 40k game's okay once in a while.

Mr Mystery wrote:Ah yes. Clearly not enjoying the games makes my own personal opinion invalid.

He asked for opinions. You gave yours and I offered counterpoint.

Yes, I think that IS how the internet works...

Cheers

I love 40K. However, I, find WM/H to be more tactically challenging than 40K. You can tell at certain points in a 40K game that you're screwed and might as well call the game. I've never done that when playing WM/H. PP pays more attention to and interacts with their fans than does GW, but that can be said of almost any miniatures company these days. You'll occasionally find the higher-ups at PP on the official PP forums and they do a lot of podcast interviews.

Price wise PP is a little cheaper than GW with most comparable minis and a lot cheaper with a few others. For example, GW retail on a 5 count box of plastic Space Marine Terminators is $50. PP retail on a box of 10 plastic Trollblood Fennblades (comparable size but with more variations in poses and greater detail) is the same price. So twice the models for the same price. But all that means squat if you don't like the game.

7 years ago I started playing Warmachine. 7 years ago I stopped playing 40K.

I enjoy the game immensely. You have much more options available to you, both in actions and game mechanics (Look, i can walk in or out of combat!). I enjoy the fact that you're not rolling tons of dice and hopping to just roll better than your opponent.

In my own opinion, Warmachine/Hordes is like chess, and 40K is like checkers. Both are fun, but I enjoy the complexity of Warmachine/Hordes better.

As for the company, I also enjoy PP more than GW. They just did a complete overhaul of their systems, releasing a book a month so that everyone had updated information, and not one model was removed from play. Even though it's MKII, the core rules from MKI carried over.

Is it for everyone? No. But for me, it's the best choice out there.

Just started playing WM/H about two months ago and I am just about ready to sell off all of my 12 years worth of 40k stuff. The game has a similar amount of army flavours, but each army can be played in a ton of different play styles and win, unlike 40k. The depth of a single army's range of models feels about as big as owning half the 40k range in terms of what you can do with it (at least for the factions I have played with so far Khador, Cryx, Mennoth, Mercs).

The rules set allows for a lot more strategic and tactical play, in my opinion. And like some have stated before I have yet to end a game early due to knowing it is over. There is always some thing I can come up with to make yet another attempt at winning the game.

But I can understand where some people are upset that they don't get to use their entire brick of dice each time they roll. Some people have an odd affection for their dice and they will likely enjoy the 40k mass rolling over the 3-4 dice rolling of WM/H simply because of this obssession.

I'm a big 40K fan.
I'll still play with my Chaos and Bikers, but all my thoughts these days are Warmachine.

Gameplay: more risk, more reward, it just plays like a more advanced version of 40K.

Models: more dynamic than alot of the GW mnis IMO. Converting is strict... this is both a blessing and a curse, much like anything else really.

You can skirmish when you want to... 40K does not do this very well. Kill team and Combat Patrol tried to do this, but it's not great.

Rules set is tighter than 40K... there are few black holes.

My main reasons:

**I LIKE EVERY FACTION**
Each caster/faction is overpowered to the point where it's balanced most of the time.

"Play with a Pair"... you are encouraged to play aggressively and competitively, no grey area/elitism.

You can win at all times even the worst of times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
40K is like an addiction for me...Warmahordes has pushed 40K into the back of my mind. I don't even feel like converting stuff for 40K.

Mr Mystery wrote:Ah yes. Clearly not enjoying the games makes my own personal opinion invalid.

While your view is no less valid than any other posters - your inital post contained a number of general statements such as "boring" or "patchy model range" which could, depending on POV, be applied to ANY miniature game. This is exacerbated due to your decision to not elaborate as to why you feel that way, making your post appear more trollish than constructive.

Just to put it out there: I love GW for the models - and I love PP for the gameplay.

I find PP's games great as I love to tinker with army lists and PP's caster/feat system offers lots of flexibility in both list building and gameplay value. While I agree that a number of their models are somewhat lacklustre, for me, gameplay trumps this. The ruleset rewards agressive play and there is no stigma with bringing the hardest list you can muster. Most hard lists will have an equally hard counter. Some of these are not intuitive as they will fall outside the normal meta, but they are there. While reviled by many of PP's detractors, having caster kill (commander kill) as an option in most games alows the chance that even the most decimated forces can still mount a late game comeback.

From a monetary POV, on a per model basis, you're looking at comparable cost to GW, though careful spending at around the $250 mark will afford a fairly robust core where swapping warcasters will drastically change gameplay.

As a modeller, I was initially frustrated by the lack of flexibility in PP's system to customize weapons or drastically rework model appearance - however, I've rediscovered simple reposing is often just as satisfying. While I like the newer dynamic sculpts, I am also a fan of some classic sculpts as PP's newer sculpts are going the GW route of "bling overload". PP's bits service offers prompt delivery and easy access to parts, but their international shipping is CRIPPLING. PP's P3 paint line is excellent (minus some issues with metalics). Think foundation paint coverage expanded to cover the entire GW line. They are cheaper than Citadel paints and come in proper sealing pots.

Corporate wise, think back to when GW was young. Their magazine contains fluff articles, modelling help and preview rules for upcoming models. Their FAQ is actively updated with frequent errata issued. Their customer-service for missing parts is almost as good as GW's. Fluffwise - the plotline in the setting is advancing as opposed to being stagnant in the 40k-verse. Models are issued in "waves" where every faction gets an update.

Thanks alot for the contributions, I actually kinda want to play a game of it now or at least get a look at the rules. Cheers for responding to a thread to basically feed my curiousity. I have that classic Nerd compulsion to know a little about everything. So i think the common consensus is a better game but not as much scope for hobby creativity.

Not for everybody, but you're more likely to find a game of Warmachine/Hordes than any other non-GW game out there. I personally don't like most of their models. The sculpting quality is solid, but the designs don't do it for me. Even I have a limit on how ridiculous I want my shoulderpads to be.

I found the models to be OK - some I like a great deal, some I like less so.

I have found their quality control to be very poor. I got around 6 kits from them. 1 of them was normal. 4 of them had an extra piece (not a different option, an actual extra piece). No complaints there. The last one had a missing piece. I emailed them, waited 2 weeks, got no response. I emailed them again, got a response a few days later and the replacement part about a week later. I'd suggest, if you can buy them locally, maybe checking the pieces before you buy them. Your mileage may vary.

The actual models were well cast and had a minimum of cleanup prior to priming.

The paint is very hit and miss. I tried about a dozen, and I found some to be exceptionally good (hammerfall khaki), some to be average at best (khador red), some to be sup-par (khador red/orange highlight), and some to be horribly bad (Pig Iron, Quick Silver). Additionally, all of the paints appear to have a random amount of paint in them.

The brushes I found to be excellent.

The rulebook I found to be well organized and written. Disclosure, I still have yet to actually play a game, so can't speak to the rules.

I have been a 40k player, off and on, for 17 years. Now, dont get me wrong, that hardly puts me in the rabid fanboy base. I just enjoy the game, I'm not blind to it's faults.

In the past 8 years I have expanded out into a number of other games and enjoyed damn near all of them.
Tried HordesMachine. Have got quite a bit of enjoyment out of it. Hate the whole caster kill concept. Yeah, it HAS been toned back some in MkII, and I know it doesn't HAVE to be played with that in the mission. Doesn't stop me from hating it.

I am also no huge fan of the combos. The whole problem with them is that in order to be truly competitive, you have to know all the different combos your opponent might throw at you, so that you can plan to be able to shut them down. Which is all right and fine, I just don't have the interest to go reading up that much.

I DO agree with Mr Mystery in that PP does seem to have their own version of codex creep in play, except its with every new model they release. Admittedly, I have been VERY much out of the loop with MkII, it may not be near as bad as Mk I. I know, especially with the Superiority release for Mk I. people were crying about balance. I am hoping Mk II has fixed a lot of that, and by the sounds of it it has, however they are making their new releases still more powerfull on a point for point basis than their older pieces. I understand why they do it, but its somethign a new player should be aware of. You are now aware.

To be perfectly honest, I "grew up" in my gaming with 40k, and that is probably th biggest reason I stick with it. Had I started out with HordesMachine, I might very well feel very differently. But at this point, I enjoy 40k, I enjoy HordesMachine, and can get pickup games with either.

Really, as has been said before, you should try to get some intro games and pickup games with HordesMachine. I play Legion and Khador, and in general I enjoy them very much. Hopefully, if you give em a go, you will too. It makes a nice change, and helps to have ot think a bit differently. Thats a good thing.

It's all about personal preference.

Some years ago I got some khador, never played a game and never painted because I had my hands full with other projects... I eventually donated all my khador to a friend... had not much interested in another system or collection and was also with the opinion that modelwise PP is a hit and miss...

People around here restarted the Warmahordes thing and I looked into it again... I was surprised that I can buy some trollbloods and convert them to play other skirmish fantasy games since if you stick with CC wepons kind of models they are very generic... converting is ok as long as you dont change the weapons... so you can sculpt say a smaller more realistic axe instead of the one mini comes with, you can also repose and since its all metal its going to take it more time to do it right. Price wise is comparable with GW modelwise but since game is skirmish and not mass battles you save there.

In short not all models are cool but you can find some gems there, and you can convert things as long as main attributes are still visible... in my case I can use them on other skirmish games and thats a big thing for me.

Give it a try.

Look for your local press ganger. They're volunteer events coordinators (Devilsquid and
I both do this) and game promoters for a given area. Press Gangers can give you a demo
kind of how red shirts are supposed to, but since we don't work for the company you
shouldn't be getting a hard sell from us. What we can do is start you off by explaining
how a faction looks, feels and plays.

I know that this might not seem like a strength for some, but I got into Warmachine
and Hordes because I didn't have to paint the same kind of model over and over
again. The faction I initially chose let me paint a unit of dudes in robes with
grenades, dudes in robes with crosses, and dudes in knights' armor on foot all in the
same army. I hardly ever get bored painting for this game.

The flipside to having a diverse faction model range is that it's not a very friendly
game to learn how to paint with. It's not like 40k where you can have your "early days"
crappy Eldar Guardians and progress through the years until you learn how to paint
your Guardians "properly" and you can either hide crappy models in a sea of better
painted ones or you can simply send the badly painted minis to their deaths early in
the game and have your nicely painted Guardians fill in the lines.

Basically i am fully aware of the short comings of Games workshop but i know nothing about the games produced by Privateer Press. Not really intersted in playing their games, because i don't like the art style/not entirely convinced by the setting, but some of the models are wonderful. I was just wondering what Fans have to say about Warmachine and Hordes etc. Are their games fun? Are the models too expensive? Are PP attentive to their fans? etc...

The games are fun, for the same reasons described above.

Models are expensive. GW set the price point and PP is up there with them. In the
case of PP (actually in either case) I don't mind paying the price for models because
that money goes to a company that continues to develop models and miniatures for
games that I enjoy. If GW had new models for Eldar and Wood Elves every other year
instead of every five to seven I'd probably still be buying more stuff from them.

PP is attentive to their fans, almost too much so. The tone on their forums sometimes
gets a little shrill as people expect instantaneous and immediate responses from the
company. Think of the difference when people fatalistically post about GW; no one
really ever expects news or rumors to come directly from GW, even though they themselves
set themselves up to be the only source of straight information on their products.

That last paragraph is not offered as a criticism of either company but just as an
observation about how the company's interactions with its players affects its players.

I'd like to mention that you can get the quick start rules for warmachine here: http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/the-game and for Hordes here: http://privateerpress.com/hordes/the-game

For free of course! If you don't have someone in the area that plays take the quickstart rules and try out some games with your friends, that's how I got into the game about two years ago. I have to say I am so glad I decided to step outside Warhammer and see what was waiting in the outside world.

I am also no huge fan of the combos. The whole problem with them is that in order to be truly competitive, you have to know all the different combos your opponent might throw at you, so that you can plan to be able to shut them down. Which is all right and fine, I just don't have the interest to go reading up that much.

How is that different from 40K?
The only thing I can see where it's 'easier' to deal with in 40K would be to throw dice at it until it's dead...which isn't exactly a selling point and not too different.

I mean, when you see Molik Karn on the other side of the table, you know something is up regardless.
There is a reason PP has a card system. It's easy to hand over and allow the opponent to read through it...(just a little easier than a whole codex).

In addition, you have the 2 list system for tourneys were you can play the meta.
You can go with a list you are comfortable with against certain opponents and then go with a list that focuses on denial vs. casters you are unfamiliar with, etc.

In addition, Warmahordes is as transparent as 40K in regards to rules and special abilities.

Ouze wrote:I emailed them, waited 2 weeks, got no response. I emailed them again, got a response a few days later and the replacement part about a week later. I'd suggest, if you can buy them locally, maybe checking the pieces before you buy them. Your mileage may vary.

Emailing the front desk at PP works, but slowly. For best results, you should call them. I've had excellent service every time I've called to follow up on an email. Shipping took a week - which for me, is very fast as shipping from the US to Canada sometimes takes up to 2-3 weeks depending on mode of shipping.

I don't have much, only 66ish points of stuff.
No problems yet, only warped blades and spears and such, totally expected though.

Worse warping were:
-Blood Witch blades
-Bokur Spear
-Bane Night Lance

That's about it for me.

One thing I wish PP would do though is just combine warmachine and hordes into 1 game. I mean, I know they work together and it's the same rules and all.. and I understand the difference between warlocks and warcasters.. but I'd rather see it just as one big game in 1 big rulebook. All they gotta do is say... "warcasters control jacks and work like this" and then, "Warlocks control monsters and work like that".

I think it's fine keeping them seperate.
Though thers is overlap, the story itself is pretty different and the mood.

Beast and steampunk are fine by itself. Honestly, it's a side bonus that they can interact well with each other.

Also remember that by having as two seperate games, it's easier to 1) release new books, 2) release new models. If it was one game, with their current system of "everything for everybody" in new releases, you'd have 11 factions that you'd have to release new things for all at once. Add to that new models to support those new things.

And they are two different games. Yes, the core rules are very similar, and the story line does cross over, but the general "feel" for the two games is quite different.

CT GAMER wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Boring games

False. Very much a nail biting and tactically challenging game with lots of carnage and battling of player wits.

False. There is nothing like an opponent punching you repeatedly in the face while you do nothing(boring). Cuz thats what I would allow someone do to me. "Its cool bro punch me a couple more times, then I will punch you." It's a boring game of Rochambeau. What so tactical about that?

Cheers

i once tried to play warmachine
was boring as hell
and models dont look interesting to me

Edit: The grammar Nazi in me took over. Sorry, guys.

_Tim?

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:Don't mean to be a jerk-wad,

ok then, jerk

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: WHY you don't like the game?

it was boring as hell

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: WHY you don't like the models

i simply dont like their look

and i do what the hell i want with my bandwith

Just cause you prob. like rolling a boat load of dice .
I like it because it doesn't focus on mass dice. It focuses more on positioning and making the few dice you do have better at accomplishing your goals.

As for the models...I can somwhat agree, but as a converter, I make it mine and be interesting at the same time, so YMMV alot there.