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 Vermis wrote:
What do you mean 'we', paleface?

I guess I mean those who drive lol

-

Character- $10
Troops Choice- $20
Elites Choice- $25
Light Vehicle/Bikes- $25
Tank/Transport/Monstrous Creature- $35
Flyer/FMC- $40
Superheavy- $70

Verviedi wrote:
Character- $10
Troops Choice- $20
Elites Choice- $25
Light Vehicle/Bikes- $25
Tank/Transport/Monstrous Creature- $35
Flyer/FMC- $40
Superheavy- $70

This would be ideal, but you could bump those all up by $5 and i'd still be happy to pay it. On the superheavy front I wont mind paying a much higher price. Knights are only 20 ish bucks too expensive IMO, and all the other forgeworld stuff is priced fine by me.

Yeah, I'd actually be fine with those prices: provided rules that go with them are acceptable.

I don't know what the price should be as I don't know their costs but for me to buy models from them more than once a year (haven't bought a model from them since dark vengeance was released actually) they would have to be about 50% cheaper. They would have to scrap or heavily reduce codex prices or include army lists in the main rule book.

I am not a fan of the hobbit releases but at a more reasonable price I would own a decent amount of lotr stuff. But their prices are just too high and if I do pick up any lotr stuff in the future it will be from ebay.

As it stands if I need paint and I am passing a GW I will pick up some paint, but beyond that I don't shop with them.

I think a big part of it is feeling you see being price gouged too. I mean infinity models are really expensive at about 5-10 quid a model (pretty much all of them are character models.) but despite that I don't feel like I am being shafted when I buy from corvus belle.

 carlos13th wrote:
I think a big part of it is feeling you see being price gouged too. I mean infinity models are really expensive at about 5-10 quid a model (pretty much all of them are character models.) but despite that I don't feel like I am being shafted when I buy from corvus belle.

A big reason for that IMHO is because 40k and WHFB have grown exponentially larger to encourage buying more. Infinity requires a few models, so while they're individually pricy you feel like you're getting your money's worth not having to buy a couple boxes of the same guys. Same with Warmachine for me, I feel like I get more value buying a $50 infantry unit from Privateer than I do a $40 box from GW, because that Warmachine box is a good chunk of my force not just a small piece.

I think the 20% off prices that most independent retailers sell GW products for is about the right price and I'm happy paying those. I consider Forge World luxury purchases and again am happy paying those prices.

I was speaking to someone who has an inside knowledge on the true cost involved of producing kits.

I'll give you an example. The Hobbit Goblin Captain which sells here in Australia at $33.00

The total cost of the entire model cost GW which is Citadel Finecast 5 Australian cents, the packaging, 1 Australian cent, shipping so small it not worth mentioning.

Add all other costs it total cost is 25 Australian cents. GW when they sell that figure they make a whopping $32.75 profit on the figure.

What is worse is that for that figure 70% of the entire contents is wastage as the Goblin Captain figure only makes up for 30% of total sprue. And they charge $33.00 for a figure the size of a Gretchin.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
I think a big part of it is feeling you see being price gouged too. I mean infinity models are really expensive at about 5-10 quid a model (pretty much all of them are character models.) but despite that I don't feel like I am being shafted when I buy from corvus belle.

A big reason for that IMHO is because 40k and WHFB have grown exponentially larger to encourage buying more. Infinity requires a few models, so while they're individually pricy you feel like you're getting your money's worth not having to buy a couple boxes of the same guys. Same with Warmachine for me, I feel like I get more value buying a $50 infantry unit from Privateer than I do a $40 box from GW, because that Warmachine box is a good chunk of my force not just a small piece.

Yeah while 40k is cheaper on a per model basis than other skirmish games a playable force is cheaper with other games. Compared to other games that require large numbers of troops 40k is very expensive. I am currently making a samurai army out of metal historicals and it's still cheaper than doing a whfb army of a similar size.

If I made them from plastics they would be even cheaper.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
I was speaking to someone who has an inside knowledge on the true cost involved of producing kits.

I'll give you an example. The Hobbit Goblin Captain which sells here in Australia at $33.00

The total cost of the entire model cost GW which is Citadel Finecast 5 Australian cents, the packaging, 1 Australian cent, shipping so small it not worth mentioning.

Add all other costs it total cost is 25 Australian cents. GW when they sell that figure they make a whopping $32.75 profit on the figure.

What is worse is that for that figure 70% of the entire contents is wastage as the Goblin Captain figure only makes up for 30% of total sprue. And they charge $33.00 for a figure the size of a Gretchin.

I don't think you're friend know what their talking about. Even IF that was their costs it only represents a small percentage of costs. When you look at GW's investor relations website you can see how much revenue and profit they actually make, with the cost to operate being the difference. They only have a 10% return on investment, they have to spend $10 to make $1. Even if GW were some how doing this without a profit margin, that would only amount to a 10% decrease in their wholesale prices.

GW's problem is they try to grow profits by growing margin and shrinking costs instead of trying to grow its customer base. Their pricing scheme has caused a 9% shrink in sales volume this last year, 7% the year before... Its starting to look like a bell curve where each percent of price increase is met with a growing disproportionate loss of customers. A company in their position's main advantage is the volume they can produce by charging as much as they do they struggle to pay off the capital investments made to create their products.

From a purely economic stand point if we turned back the clock to 2011 that was the last year where price rises saw no significant impact on sales volume. That is the price point where price-demand elasticity is breakeven and thus optimized. After adjusting for inflation, if GW set its prices to 2011 levels, it'd see a balanced sales volume relative to overall profitability. Now I don't have a recollection of prices that year, but that would be statistically the "best price" for consumers and GW

Its nice to come up with a pricing scheme of what we'd like to pay, but it doesn't take into consideration the health of a company. If GW charged the prices of some of the recommendations here they'd likely stagnate from a lack of capital to reinvest into the next new product or go under.

Their prices 5-7 years ago would've ben fine for me. Not now.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
I was speaking to someone who has an inside knowledge on the true cost involved of producing kits.

I'll give you an example. The Hobbit Goblin Captain which sells here in Australia at $33.00

The total cost of the entire model cost GW which is Citadel Finecast 5 Australian cents, the packaging, 1 Australian cent, shipping so small it not worth mentioning.

Add all other costs it total cost is 25 Australian cents. GW when they sell that figure they make a whopping $32.75 profit on the figure.

What is worse is that for that figure 70% of the entire contents is wastage as the Goblin Captain figure only makes up for 30% of total sprue. And they charge $33.00 for a figure the size of a Gretchin.

I don't think you're friend know what their talking about. Even IF that was their costs it only represents a small percentage of costs. When you look at GW's investor relations website you can see how much revenue and profit they actually make, with the cost to operate being the difference. They only have a 10% return on investment, they have to spend $10 to make $1. Even if GW were some how doing this without a profit margin, that would only amount to a 10% decrease in their wholesale prices.

GW's problem is they try to grow profits by growing margin and shrinking costs instead of trying to grow its customer base. Their pricing scheme has caused a 9% shrink in sales volume this last year, 7% the year before... Its starting to look like a bell curve where each percent of price increase is met with a growing disproportionate loss of customers. A company in their position's main advantage is the volume they can produce by charging as much as they do they struggle to pay off the capital investments made to create their products.

From a purely economic stand point if we turned back the clock to 2011 that was the last year where price rises saw no significant impact on sales volume. That is the price point where price-demand elasticity is breakeven and thus optimized. After adjusting for inflation, if GW set its prices to 2011 levels, it'd see a balanced sales volume relative to overall profitability. Now I don't have a recollection of prices that year, but that would be statistically the "best price" for consumers and GW

Its nice to come up with a pricing scheme of what we'd like to pay, but it doesn't take into consideration the health of a company. If GW charged the prices of some of the recommendations here they'd likely stagnate from a lack of capital to reinvest into the next new product or go under.

You are absolutely correct, my previous price points are biased because i feel like i have been gouged so I am overshooting what I would consider to be worthwhile. With that said, their prices for individual "character" models are absurd as are some of the other things. There has to be a balance where they charge significantly less than current prices which creates enough new customers to outweigh the per model loss of profit.

@Achaylus72.
The figures from my friend who works at GW (In the manufacturing facility.)

The cost of manufacturing a plastic kit is appx 4% of the retail price.
The cost of all the other overheads , wages, facility depreciation, design and development etc, APART from logistics and retail.
Bumps this up another 22% appx.(26% appx.)

This leaves a gross profit of 74%on average.

However, logistics, (shipping the product to retail and distributors,) cost just under 10% of the retail price on average.(This means 35% appx of the retail price in total before you get to the retail costs.)

The retail chain costs GW plc in excess of 50% of their gross profit!

So if you play regular games in your local GW store, then you MAY be getting the extra value for money everyone who buys off GW HAS to pay for!

There are still GW stores you can play in?

Well if you can not play in the stores, what are you paying GW all that extra money for?

I was under the impression it was some sort of Australian Tax.

 carlos13th wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
I think a big part of it is feeling you see being price gouged too. I mean infinity models are really expensive at about 5-10 quid a model (pretty much all of them are character models.) but despite that I don't feel like I am being shafted when I buy from corvus belle.

A big reason for that IMHO is because 40k and WHFB have grown exponentially larger to encourage buying more. Infinity requires a few models, so while they're individually pricy you feel like you're getting your money's worth not having to buy a couple boxes of the same guys. Same with Warmachine for me, I feel like I get more value buying a $50 infantry unit from Privateer than I do a $40 box from GW, because that Warmachine box is a good chunk of my force not just a small piece.

Yeah while 40k is cheaper on a per model basis than other skirmish games a playable force is cheaper with other games. Compared to other games that require large numbers of troops 40k is very expensive. I am currently making a samurai army out of metal historicals and it's still cheaper than doing a whfb army of a similar size.

If I made them from plastics they would be even cheaper.

And that's the other thing. Large-scale games tend to have cheaper figures to balance it out (you pay less but buy more), smaller games tend to do the opposite (more expensive figures but you need to buy less). GW takes the worst of both: Pay a lot and buy a lot, because they're delusional and can get away with it.

It just feels like you're being cheated.

The fact the rules are overall garbage doesn't help.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
I was speaking to someone who has an inside knowledge on the true cost involved of producing kits.

I'll give you an example. The Hobbit Goblin Captain which sells here in Australia at $33.00

The total cost of the entire model cost GW which is Citadel Finecast 5 Australian cents, the packaging, 1 Australian cent, shipping so small it not worth mentioning.

Add all other costs it total cost is 25 Australian cents. GW when they sell that figure they make a whopping $32.75 profit on the figure.

What is worse is that for that figure 70% of the entire contents is wastage as the Goblin Captain figure only makes up for 30% of total sprue. And they charge $33.00 for a figure the size of a Gretchin.

I don't think you're friend know what their talking about. Even IF that was their costs it only represents a small percentage of costs. When you look at GW's investor relations website you can see how much revenue and profit they actually make, with the cost to operate being the difference. They only have a 10% return on investment, they have to spend $10 to make $1. Even if GW were some how doing this without a profit margin, that would only amount to a 10% decrease in their wholesale prices.

GW's problem is they try to grow profits by growing margin and shrinking costs instead of trying to grow its customer base. Their pricing scheme has caused a 9% shrink in sales volume this last year, 7% the year before... Its starting to look like a bell curve where each percent of price increase is met with a growing disproportionate loss of customers. A company in their position's main advantage is the volume they can produce by charging as much as they do they struggle to pay off the capital investments made to create their products.

From a purely economic stand point if we turned back the clock to 2011 that was the last year where price rises saw no significant impact on sales volume. That is the price point where price-demand elasticity is breakeven and thus optimized. After adjusting for inflation, if GW set its prices to 2011 levels, it'd see a balanced sales volume relative to overall profitability. Now I don't have a recollection of prices that year, but that would be statistically the "best price" for consumers and GW

Its nice to come up with a pricing scheme of what we'd like to pay, but it doesn't take into consideration the health of a company. If GW charged the prices of some of the recommendations here they'd likely stagnate from a lack of capital to reinvest into the next new product or go under.

So let me see, you are saying that that Goblin Captain costs GW $30.00 Australian to make $3.00 Australian profit.

I Don't know of any other manufacturer in the history of manufacturing that operates on a 10% margin, enlighten me on others that do.

Well, I can vouch that the Australian market has retracted on average of just under 11% per annum over the last 10 years, last year alone Australia retracted with sales down by 9.4% That relates to a sale loss of 2.31 Million Pounds. While GW operated at a profit in Australia to the tune of 557,000 Pounds which means that GW stripped 2.867 Million Pounds out of its operations to post such profits, explain that?

10% net is perfectly acceptable, even healthy. Do not confuse gross and net.

Besides, even if your "source" is correct on the intrinsic costs of the materials involved, something which I have no trouble believing are very low, if perhaps not quite as low as stated, you have to factor in non-material and logistic costs before you arrive at the true figure.

Aside from all that, we know how much GW spends on making their stuff, because their accounts tell us and those figures almost exactly mirror what Lanrak has already mentioned.

People are unhappy with GW´s pricing even while their models actually cost less than a few other popular games models. Sure, you need a bit more of them.

People are unhappy when GW fires people. Which would happen more if they reduced prices as their main source of income would be reduced.

Go figure.

Finally, I don´t understand how people in the US and UK are so unhappy about it, as they pay much less than I do for example and I´m fine. You can get an army for 400 dollars online anyways. Is 400 dollars for something that lasts you years really that much? Especially seeing you can sell them for 50-70% of their original price depending on their condition, therefore paying even less in the end, when you´re done with them?

My friend plays american football, he pays that much for the insurance alone, let alone the other payments and the gear, every season. There´s not many popular hobbies that run cheaper over the years. I go to the gym and that also costs more than being a miniature hobbyist. In the end miniatures are quite a cheap hobby unless you have some uncontrolled urge to buy new stuff every 2 weeks. For that you can only blame yourself.

 Achaylus72 wrote:


So let me see, you are saying that that Goblin Captain costs GW $30.00 Australian to make $3.00 Australian profit.

I Don't know of any other manufacturer in the history of manufacturing that operates on a 10% margin, enlighten me on others that do.

That's what GW reports to its investors. The actual margin may well vary region to region but that 10% profit is what it averages out to be. Other aspects to consider is that the majority of it sales are to retailers and thus at a lower price and margin. With just over 50% of its revenue from retailers and around 35% of revenue from direct to customer sales GW itself doesn't benefit that much from it high retail prices.

The majority of oil companies, pharmaceutical companies, and even Airbus operate with an annual profit margin of around 10%, they just work in billions not millions.

 Achaylus72 wrote:

Well, I can vouch that the Australian market has retracted on average of just under 11% per annum over the last 10 years, last year alone Australia retracted with sales down by 9.4% That relates to a sale loss of 2.31 Million Pounds. While GW operated at a profit in Australia to the tune of 557,000 Pounds which means that GW stripped 2.867 Million Pounds out of its operations to post such profits, explain that?

GW's business model emphasizes maintaining that 10% margin over other considerations. That's why they've sacrificed their sales outlets, their employees, and all the opportunities for sales those things afford them. It is normally something a company only does as a short term solution to temporally prop it self up. GW just keeps doing the same thing every year because they don't really understand the consequences and are chasing "what it knows" instead of trying to provide a service and proactively run a business. GW each year has increased its per item margin, but it sells a lower volume so the revenue from that sale now has to cover a greater fraction of the overhead and tool costs for the product.

GW's strategy is effectively they'd rather sell 1 miniature for a million dollars, than a million miniatures for 2 million dollars, even though the overall effort is effectively the same. It ignores their advantage is mass production. It ignores that it takes disproportionate amounts of effort to make fewer higher priced sales. GW has been able to maintain their profits because of the relatively inelastic demand for their products, but what we've seen these last two years is that GW's hit the price point where demand is again elastic and they're shedding customers because of it. They've maintained their flat profitability by raising their prices by whatever it would take to keep their profits flat after all other factors. Its now catching up with GW and thats why their CEO stepped down.

 RunicFIN wrote:

You're just a walking cliché mate, every time I see you post it is everything that people taking your viewpoint have tried arguing many times before, with no new information to prevent it being just as irrelevant.

People are unhappy with GW´s pricing even while their models actually cost less than a few other popular games models. Sure, you need a bit more of them.

Disingenuous, in most cases to play what is considered "typical" game sizes, you need a LOT more for a game of 40K and even more for Fantasy, in fact the only games I'm even dimly aware of that have a similar model count to 40K are Historicals, which are, by and large, much cheaper.

People are unhappy when GW fires people. Which would happen more if they reduced prices as their main source of income would be reduced.

Go figure.

Are they? I think you just made that up you little tinker! You know that cutting prices doesn't necessarily mean a fall in profits or revenue right? If an increase in units sold is sufficient it can offset or even outstrip the drop. Equally, where has the idea that people "get unhappy when GW fires people come from?"

Finally, I don´t understand how people in the US and UK are so unhappy about it, as they pay much less than I do for example and I´m fine. You can get an army for 400 dollars online anyways. Is 400 dollars for something that lasts you years really that much?

The "I'm alright Jack" defence does not apply. Ever. Just because you're fine with something does not preclude other people having an issue with it, neither does it make either party right or wrong.

My friend plays american football, he pays that much for the insurance alone, let alone the other payments and the gear, every season. There´s not popular hobbies that run cheaper over the years. I go to the gym and that also costs more than being a miniature hobbyist. In the end miniatures are quite a cheap hobby unless you have some uncontrolled urge to buy new stuff every 2 weeks. For that you can only blame yourself.

In other news, things that cost more than GW include building rockets to fly to the moon and setting fire to Ferraris, what's your point? Just because something costs more money, it doesn't make GW prices frequently poor value which is the issue. Something can cost pennies but still represent poor value, or millions and represent a bargain.

 RunicFIN wrote:
People are unhappy with GW´s pricing even while their models actually cost less than a few other popular games models. Sure, you need a bit more of them.

People are unhappy when GW fires people. Which would happen more if they reduced prices as their main source of income would be reduced.

I think its more complicated than that. I think people are unhappy with GW because they see its practices are ruining the game and eroding the fan base. The pricing and employees are just the most visible causes of that dissatisfaction. The problem with prices is that the customer base is generally knowledgeable and have a reasonable estimation of GW's manufacturing cost; its also that the prices climb relatively needlessly while quality has suffered or failed to improve. Using other companies' prices to justify GW's prices is backwards, since those other companies set those prices based on data from what people were willing to pay for GW's products. GW has the advantage of mass production but fails to capitalize on it. Its poor decisions have made it more reliant on a fewer number of sales and that only forces it to further sacrifice their product's integrity.

Honestly, these days you'd have to pay me before I would even think of touching one of GW's products again.

 Azreal13 wrote:
You're just a walking cliché mate, every time I see you post it is everything that people taking your viewpoint have tried arguing many times before, with no new information to prevent it being just as irrelevant.

You should read about the actual meaning of the word cliché since you are obviously misusing it. But hey, that makes two of us. Everytime I see you post it´s everything people with your viewpoint tried arguing many times before, with no new information to prevent it being just as irrelevant. You just do the polar opposite in the pro/anti GW axis. Kettle and pot. And why should I post anything new, it´s not like it´s a requirement and many anti-GW posters don´t do it either. Can´t even count how many "too high prices/plain codices/unbalanced rules" posts I´ve seen this week alone.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Equally, where has the idea that people "get unhappy when GW fires people come from?"

There are countless threads inwhich people are unhappy about the GW "one-man store" move, one of the major reasons being people being fired. It´s true that a price drop doesn´t directly mean the need to cut staff, but if GW already has to do that with the current prices I would see it more likely that people would be let go on a global scale as the company income could ( probably would ) drop. It´s not certain but likely afaic.

In other news, things that cost more than GW include building rockets to fly to the moon and setting fire to Ferraris, what's your point? Just because something costs more money, it doesn't make GW prices frequently poor value which is the issue. Something can cost pennies but still represent poor value, or millions and represent a bargain.

GW makes the some ( if not most ) of the highest quality miniatures in existence ( except for failcast, can´t argue with that ) and yet their miniatures aren´t the most expensive ones.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think people are unhappy with GW because they see its practices are ruining the game and eroding the fan base.

Possible, but this is where the internet community/wargaming community scale comes into play, which has been discussed before. Active forum users ( who are the ones who voice their opinions which we see mostly ) are a tiny fraction of the entire wargaming community, and it´s just as possible that 95% of the GW fanbase are happy and fine, and 5% are not.

Browsing certain forums can certainly make it seem worse, but in actuality we are indeed but a tiny drop of the total wargaming community.

This will just be yet another GW hate-train so I´ll just leave it to run it´s course. ( Not directed at you aka_mythos or anyone in particular. It´s just like I´m seeing into the future. )

 RunicFIN wrote:
GW makes the some ( if not most ) of the highest quality miniatures in existence ( except for failcast, can´t argue with that ) and yet their miniatures aren´t the most expensive ones.

Wait what. By any chance what miniatures from other companies have you bought?

 heartserenade wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
GW makes the some ( if not most ) of the highest quality miniatures in existence ( except for failcast, can´t argue with that ) and yet their miniatures aren´t the most expensive ones.

Wait what. By any chance what miniatures from other companies have you bought?

Privateer Press, Reaper, Malifaux, Flames of War and Scibor off the top off my head. You don´t agree that the plastic kits of GW have some of the sharpest detail and dynamic poses ( admittedly sometimes too dynamic ) ?

I guess it´s a subjective thing in the end, but aside from Failcast I can´t see how the plastic kits could get much better detail, quality and posing -wise.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
GW makes the some ( if not most ) of the highest quality miniatures in existence ( except for failcast, can´t argue with that ) and yet their miniatures aren´t the most expensive ones.

Wait what. By any chance what miniatures from other companies have you bought?

Privateer Press, Reaper, Malifaux, Flames of War and Scibor off the top off my head. You don´t agree that the plastic kits of GW have some of the sharpest detail and dynamic poses ( admittedly sometimes too dynamic ) ?

I guess it´s a subjective thing in the end, but aside from Failcast I can´t see how the plastic kits could get much better detail, quality and posing -wise.

I'd agree that GW plastics have some of the sharpest detail of PLASTICS on the market. Dynamic poses? Ha.
Sterngaurd have crisp detail but 5 sets of practically the same, utterly static legs.
Witch Elves are laughably over dynamic, with the jumping off rocks and hair.

Then of course the detail is utterly lacking when you compare them to say Infinity metals or resin models.

Bandai has been doing movable plastic kits with different colors for years, and they're detailed as hell.

Perry Miniatures just have as much detail quality-wise, and a whole dang lot cheaper. It's the same Perry brothers who used to worked for GW (until this year, I think).

With resin/metal, Infinity is hands down better at both being detailed and dynamic. Dark Sword miniatures have intricate sculpts as well. And they're all cheaper than GW. A metal figure from Darksword is $10, while a PLASTIC librarian is $30.