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Had this rule come up the other night and with the 5th edition FAQ released about a month ago it changes things. Rules were any unit already locked in combat and then assaulted by another unit could not attack the newly joined unit; this is because the unit being attacked wasn't engaged with the newly attacking unit at the beginning of combat.

With 5th edition FAQ G.W has defined beginning combat, which is after defenders react. So example is unit 1 (defender) is in combat with unit 2 (attacker), unit 1 is then assaulted by unit 3 (attacker) in the next assault phase. E.g:

2222
1111
3333

Unit 2 moves in to assault, unit 1 moves to react getting into base contact with unit 3 (although) more than likely unit 3 is in base in contact in order to assault), the rule bookx says that if models were engaged with one enemy unit at the beginning of combat it can only attack that unit, if it's engaged with more than one enemy unit then it may split attacks between units. As mentioned, G.W has defined start of combat, which is now after defenders react (and not start of the assault phase when thought) - so with this new defintion from G.W is it correct that unit 1 (defenders) can attack units 2 and 3 (attackers) in combat because it was engaged with both of them at the start of the assault phase, which is when defenders react and move into base contact of the newly assaulting unit.

Your thoughts, can this be done or not?

This came up during a game of vassal I had. I was in the situation where he was charging unit 3 into the combat of 1 and 2 (He was 3 and 2, I was 1). He argued that I could not direct attacks from 1 to 3 because of said rule/FAq/whatever (I dont have rulebooks handy with me).

I investigated, and explained why that rule exsists. Its pretty complex but I kinda understand what it means. Here is an example assault (blue is one side and green is the other)

1111111111
112222111

Unit 1 is then assaulted the next turn by unit 3.

11111111113<--- New assault
112222111

Unit 1 may not move 6" toward 3, away from 2 (which they were locked in combat with) in an attempt to break away from base to base with 2. This would be an example of what is NOT allowed:

--------------->11111
--------->11111311
---2222111

However, any model from 1 that is in base to base (or 2" from b2b) with models from 3 may direct attacks toward 3 as per normal rules.

As noted "the start of combat" is AFTER Defenders React.

So, after you've finished moving all the models involved (attackers first, then defenders), you check which models are in base contact or supporting range of each opposing unit. This determines, for the duration of that entire assault PHASE, which unit/s those models are eligible to attack.

For example, Units A and 1 are engaged in combat. For the purposes of this exercize, A is a unit of Blood Angel terminators with 4 Lightning Claws and a single Thunder Hammer (the guy on the far left), and 1 is a unit of Plague Marines.

AAAAA
11111

And unit 2, say, a single model, say, a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince, charges in to help unit 1 out:

AAAAA2
11111

Since all the terminators in unit A were already in base contact, they cannot move to React. Just the far-right model of A is in contact with both units. It is eligible to attack either, or divide its attacks if it has more than one. The other four models in A can only attack unit 1 this phase.

So, say unit 2 (the prince) attacks at I6 and kills two models. The BA player can remove whatever models he wants; but if he takes off the model in contact with the Prince, no other models will be eligible to attack the Prince this phase. The Thunder Hammer cannot possibly attack the prince, EVEN if the Lightning Claws successfully wipe out the Plague Marines on I4 before we ever get to the Thunder Hammer at I1.

Mannahnin has this 100% correct.

Ok Mannaheim that's pretty much what happened except the assaulting units angle of attacks if different. Here's exactly what happened.

HG is Honour Guard, KK are Killaz Kanz and OB are Ork Boyz.

First turn of combat is like this:

KK KK KK
HG HG HG

Next turn is the Orks turn, Boyz charge into my Honour Guard moving into base contact - my H.G don't need to react as such because the Orks have moved into base contact with them already.

KK KK KK
HG HG HG
OB OB OB

So, can the H.G split attacks onto KK and Boyz as they're in base contact with both units at the start of the assault phase.

Yes they can, that is exactly what is meant.

Each HK is in contact with 2 units (Kans and Boyz) and is therefore free to allocate as many attacks to each unit as they wish.

Thanks Nos thought they could

The BA player can remove whatever models he wants; but if he takes off the model in contact with the Prince, no other models will be eligible to attack the Prince this phase.

What, if after he removes the guy in contact with the prince, another 2 BAs are still within 2 inches of the prince. Can they attack?

Ratius wrote:

The BA player can remove whatever models he wants; but if he takes off the model in contact with the Prince, no other models will be eligible to attack the Prince this phase.

What, if after he removes the guy in contact with the prince, another 2 BAs are still within 2 inches of the prince. Can they attack?

They can attack only units they were engaged with at the start of combat.

You are engaged first and foremost with any unit you are in BTB contact with.

If you're not in BTB with any enemy unit, then you get the 2" bubble.


So, those remaining guys could direct their attacks at the Prince if they weren't in BTB with anything at the start of combat. If they were in BTB, it doesn't matter how close they were to the Prince, they can't attack him.

Any models eligible to attack the prince before combat starts may do so, assuming they are still alive when their turn to strike arrrives. So assuming that the 2 mdoels within 2" *of the model in btb WITH the prince* were not in contact with another enemy unit, they would be eligible to attack the DP even if the guy in base contact is dead.

This is because, unlike 4th, you do not determine who can strike and where at each initiative step - you do it before resolving any attacks.

Not sure where you're getting that quote from, as it isnt this thread.

Interesting, I have been playing things.....incorrectly then.

So to clarify: in Mannas case the BAs cannot attack the prince since at the start of the combat they are already engaged and in b2b contact with the plague marines?

In Mannas case only the ones in B2B can attack the Prince or within 2", though those within 2" must put their attacks on the PM because they're in B2B. In my example my entire unit was in B2B of two units, so they could split attacks.

If you are not in btb with ANY unit, but are within 2" of a model who IS in btb with a unit AND within 2" of a model in btb with a different unit, the nyou can choose who you attack, and can continue to do so throughout the combat.

As normal then

I would just like to point out that the FAQ did not actually change the rule, but simply clarified it for those whose reading comprehension is not great.

It actually defined when start of assault was, start of assault would typicaly when models move into assault, yet G.W as defined it when defenders react, before blows at struck which changes things. It depends what you call start of assault.

I think Willy is more or less correct that "start of combat" was always meant to be after all assault moves and after all defenders react moves.

They tweaked the wording on page 41 and added a bullet point to make it a little clearer, but it's still a bit tricky. When it was originally tweaked I thought the "start of combat" meant the start of the assault phase, and I accidentally played it that way at the '09 Ardboyz semifinal, to my later embarassment.

Same here Manna