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105 - Baron
70 - Haemonculus, Venom Blade, Shattershard

271 - Hellion x 16 w/ Helliarch, Stunclaw
135 - Wyches x 5 w/ Haywire Grenades, Shardnet and Impaler, Raider, Grisly Trophies
125 - Warriors x 5 w/ Blaster, Raider, Grisly Trophies
125 - Warriors x 5 w/ Blaster, Raider, Grisly Trophies
125 - Wracks x 5 w/ Liquifier, Raider, Grisly Trophies

270 - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Razorwing Flock x 6, Khymera x 10
270 - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Razorwing Flock x 6, Khymera x 10

115 - Ravager, Flickerfield
115 - Ravager, Flickerfield
115 - Ravager, Flickerfield

Total: 1841

Baron starts with wracks, Haemi starts with Hellions. Hellions and Baron join moving forward in cover stealing both pain tokens. Starting this unit with FNP and Furious charge makes them no joke.
Wyches support the beasts by tarpitting dreadnoughts or taking out armor.
Haemi and Wracks support everyone by hunting HQs or flaming troops in cover.
15 dark light weapons hopefully is enough to take on any armor 12+
List feels balanced enough to take on all comers, although I expect to see mostly heavy mech lists (Eldar, IG, BA, etc)

Probably just throw in another warrior for the 9 points. Nothing really left to add.

Ashenshugar wrote: Baron starts with wracks, Haemi starts with Hellions.

Baron has a jumppack so he cannot get in a raider... He has to join the hellions. If you want that hellion squad to gain a pain token you can ALSO join the heami but than you can only move 6 inch instead of 12. I would just keep those hellions in cover or try to take down a squad with splinter weapons to gain a pain token.

Those beastmasters soak up a lot of points and so you can only affort a few 5-model units in a raider that are not very scary. If you lose first turn you will not survive a good round of shooting. You could give the haemi a warpportal, drop it in turn 1 and let those beastmasters enter the battlefield upclose..

I believe his plan is Wracks embark and leave there point with the baron. Hellions then leave Haemi taking his pain point to join up with the baron, thus giving them 2 pain points and furious charge.

I don't really see the point in a 5 man unit of Wyches, they don't have the attacks to threaten much and will fold under even less firepower than normal. I'm also not sure if the complex manouvering with the Wracks/Hellions just to get the second Pain Token is worth it, the Wracks become almost useless afterwards and the Hellions don't need FC that badly. Remember that you have a chance of getting it with your Drug roll as well, that would give the Hellions 2 tokens even without the Haemonculi.

Personally I would drop them and change the list around a bit so that you can run this as a WWP based list if you want to (usually if you are going second). Add another Haemonculi and run them both with Portals, include two Raiders (either Wracks or Warriors, Warriors for the AT, Wracks for the survivability) and use them to deploy the Portals past the halfway line. Use your remaining points to add more Hellions rather than more Raider units and you will end up with a huge chunk of fast units arriving turn 2 and able to charge pretty much anything on the board (12" deploy, 2" pivot, 12" move, 3" disembark, 3" template = 32" up the board then 18-24" charge range from that). Obviously try and get the Haemoculi linked up with the Hellions to give them a Pain Token if you can (if they survive a turn of shooting in the open mostly) but you shouldn't worry about this too much as your Hellions should be in position to charge something the turn they arrive which will keep them safe (your Ravagers should hopefully de-mech at least 1 infantry unit for them to assault and then they bounce around with Hit and Run).
Your only real concern is heavy armour, the Hellions and Beastmasters combined with support from the Ravagers will absolutely wreck parking lots, but will run into problems against anything with a rear AV higher than 10 like Land Raiders. Aside from not really having enough points to do much about this your best bet would be to add Scourges with Heat Lances (as they can come Deep Strike or come through the Portal if needed). More likely you just have to squeeze a bit more in to what you have, Blasters and Blast Pistols everywhere and Raiders over Venoms.

I can't see the 5 Wyches tarpitting anything. At this point level you want to be above 20 Dark light weapons. Like thw wyches 5 Wracks don't really do much. Are all those grisly trophies really worth it? I can see why on the wyches Raider as you intend to tarpit with them (but 5 isn't enough for this) by why all the others?

Why take the Baron and so few Hellions?

I'm not convinced by the beastmasters particularly since the FAQ. But not really seen them in action.

Your heavy support is bang on.

My opinions:
Your MSU is not good.

As has been said, 5 Wyches will die FAST. Also, S&I are the worst of the Wych weapons. Flails & Hydra are better.

Your Raiders will die easily. Moreso, because you didn't take Flicker Fields. So, your 5 man units will be hoofing it across the field more often than not.

You're relying too much on the beastmaster units. Those Invulnerable saves are nice, but the unit's a tarpit unit, at best, against most foes. My experience against MEQ has not been good with them.

Against a smart opponent, your Wracks and haemon die on turn 1.
Because of move sequences and the fact that the *HQ* must move away from the unit, it means that (a) your haemon won't get to join the Wracks on turn 1 or (b) he'll be able to join them but, since he moved and they haven't, they won't be able to move. Same for your Hellions.
Illustrated:
Baron leaves Wracks. Joins Hellions. Hellions can't move, as the baron has moved. This means your haemon can't move away from the unit, either. At best, Wracks move into their vehicle?
--or--
Haemon moves away from Hellions. Does NOT join Wracks.
Hellions zip forward 12". Baron moves away from Wracks, joins Hellions (2 pain tokens). Wracks do what? They can't join the haemon (only HQ joins), so they can (a) try to turn themselves into a 4+ meat shield or (b) get into the vehicle & have the vehicle move over to create an AV10 shield for him.
Either way, you've got one or more units sitting around, almost helpless.
Also as you have now left your 6+armored Wracks and Haemon without pain tokens, you robbed them of the only thing giving them any real staying power. Most shooting weapons have an AP of 6 or better. That's a 195 point sacrifice for 2 tokens on a slightly-better-than-mediocre Hellion unit.

Your better bet would be to leave the Wracks in their vehicle, attach the Baron and Haemon to the Hellions, peel the haemon off on T1 & have it mount into the Raider. leave the counter behind. Now, your Hellions have FNP, which DOES make them substantially better. You've also increased the survivability of the Wracks, compared to your previous idea.
Now, the Hellions/Baron can move & the Raider can speed off into cover.

You've got almost a third (29+%) of your army in those Beastmaster units, and none of the Beastmasters were even given any upgrades. You should drop them for larger troop units, IMO -- Maybe Reavers).

Eric

I don't think it's a terrible list, though it isn't great, either. You make your opponent choose between shooting vehicles and shooting your beasts, which is good.

Contra Flingitnow, I'd say 15 Lance weapons is enough at 1850, since you also have a few units that can damage vehicles in assault (beasts, hellions w/ str upgrade or furious charge, baron, wyches).

You might want to cut down on the beast squads a little. Do you really need ten Khymaerae per squad? Maybe trade some for a few more wyches (5 is definitely too few).

I'd drop the grisly trophies and pick up a couple of flickerfields (on the Warrior Raiders, probably).

Contra Flingitnow, I'd say 15 Lance weapons is enough at 1850, since you also have a few units that can damage vehicles in assault (beasts, hellions w/ str upgrade or furious charge, baron, wyches).

If you opponent is still mechanised by the time those units hit CC you are dead and there is no way they will survive the reprisals from whatever falls out of the vehicles...

I will have to agree that the 5 Wyches are not going to accomplish much, and I doubt they can tarpit a dreadnaught.
Let's do the math a bit: 5 haywires from the Wyches= no likely hits....Dread gets 1 attack (due to Wych weapons) 50/50 hit, 50/50 you save...if you lose one, you get ld 7 break check, and even if a raider with trophies is around re-rollable ld 7 sux. AND if that dread happens to be furioso (oso-special!) you will most likely lose very badly.

No all is bad though. Beastmasters are awesome tuff. Too many wounds and too many attacks keep them around for a looong time. I know, I run IG Blobs like fat kids in a candy store!!!
Going second is an issue, and even if Baron gives you that +1, you can still be stuck with second. I don't think WWP is viable as is....maybe start the board with 2 Beastmaster units and Baron +Co. in cover and reserve everything else. At 1850, the worst shooting you will face is an IG player with 2-3 pieces of Arty (Manticore anyone?)

Flingitnow said:

If you opponent is still mechanised by the time those units hit CC you are dead and there is no way they will survive the reprisals from whatever falls out of the vehicles...

Beastmasters have a good chance of making it into assault T2 in Pitched Battle. With perfect Fleet rolls they can touch your opponent's board edge on T2, though of course they don't need to. Same for Hellions. I certainly hope you don't have to destroy all of your opponent's vehicles by the assault phase of turn 2 to survive.

I admit Hellions can't handle much of a counter, though they're considerably better with FnP. Beastmaster units certainly can, though.

I agree with other posters that it's unnecessary and prohibitively difficult to get the Wracks' token on the Hellions. How about the following?

Baron
16 Hellions (no Helliarch)
3 Wracks

391 pts (ouch!)

Saves you 180 pts, though you lose a Raider, Liquefier and Shattershard. I doubt you want to spend nearly 10% of your army on a Raider, Liquefier and Shattershard.

I certainly hope you don't have to destroy all of your opponent's vehicles by the assault phase of turn 2 to survive.

You do with DE if you're deploying. Obviously not always ALL but most of them and certainly most of the transports. You don't want your infantry to be dealing with vehicles, well certainly not transport vehicles. DE can put down the hurt in 1 shooting phase and they need to because they can't survive a decent shooting phase from their opponent...

Thank you all for the comments. I think many of you have overlooked the fact the Beastmasters have 45 wounds and 86 attacks (40 Str 4, 36 Str 3 w/ rending, and 10 str 3) on the charge. I strongly disagree with the WWP in a pitched battle scenario. I would MUCH rather them shoot at the beastmasters then anything else on the table. However, in a dawn of war scenario a WWP would be useful.

@ Hesperus

Thank you for realizing the army should make it extremely tough for my opponent to decide what to shoot. Either have full strength beastmaster units get rammed down your throat, or risk being hit by volleys of dark lances. Shooting at the hellions when they can go to ground for a 2+ cover save could also make my opponent waste some potentially damaging shots.

The grisly trophies are to make sure the beastmaster units don't break on turn 1 in the off chance 5 models in the unit are actually killed. I don't expect raiders to last very long, so the small upgrades are worthwhile until the beasts can get a charge in.

@ Powerguy

I agree I'm probably making it to complicated to give the hellions 2 tokens, and the wyches being worthless (was worth considering).

@ MagickalMemories

"Your Raiders will die easily. Moreso, because you didn't take Flicker Fields. So, your 5 man units will be hoofing it across the field more often than not. "

The raiders are being screened by Hellions and beastmasters (hellions). They will get a 4+ cover save.

"You've got almost a third (29+%) of your army in those Beastmaster units, and none of the Beastmasters were even given any upgrades. You should drop them for larger troop units, IMO -- Maybe Reavers). "

What upgrade for the beastmasters? That comment doesn't even make any sense. 1 agoniser for 1 beastmaster with 1 attack, 2 on the charge is worthless, and that's the only upgrade in the codex.

Reavers are terrible, they are worse glass cannons then raiders. If you don't turbo boost they are dead, and if you get close enough to use a heat lance they are dead. Scourges I would consider, but never reavers.

@Everyone

Please think about how fragile dark eldar are, and consider the army I've designed is exceptionally resilient. Trying to force 20 dark lances into an army is terrible. Do you really think you are going to outshoot IG? I've proxied a LOT of games, and every time found myself coming up short if I had 1 bad round of shooting, that is until I split into an anvil and hammer approach. Wyches and Incubi simply get shot down and rarely reach their intended target. The beastmasters can take a punishment and keep on trucking.

Take a look at this revised list please:

105 - Baron
85 - Haemonculus, WWP (for dawn of war)

335 - Hellion x 20 w/ Helliarch, Stunclaw
135 - Warriors x 5 w/ Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies
135 - Warriors x 5 w/ Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies
135 - Warriors x 5 w/ Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies

270 - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Razorwing Flock x 6, Khymera x 10
270 - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Razorwing Flock x 6, Khymera x 10

115 - Ravager, Flickerfield
115 - Ravager, Flickerfield
115 - Ravager, Flickerfield

Total: 1815

I would love to hear everybody's suggestions on what to do with the last 35 points, or what you would change without completely altering my central strategy.

I'm still not convinced by the beast masters but as I said I've not really seen them used and if you've tried them and they work for you then good. I doubt anything anyone on here says will make you drop them as they are clearly central to your idea for the army.

The 2nd list looks far better. Better target saturation, more threats. More delivery options. No pointless units.

As for the last 35 points you could upgrade one of the warrior squads to Trueborn and get another 2 blasters in there (so that squad would be 4 trueborn with 3 blasters). Ups your Dark light weapon numjber which is still a little low for my liking. But you'd lose a scoring unit.

BTW, I forget to address what several people brought up..... popping transports. How soon you forget, or don't consider, surrounding a transport and popping it makes everything inside go squish since they have nowhere to disembark to.

@ FlingitNow

I completely wrote off the beastmaster units when I saw the new codex. I thought they were just as bad if not worse then mandrakes. But after looking at all the fragile options the DE have, you will find yourself looking at a terrifying unit when you break it down. I feel the DL number is too low also, but going too much DL is not a viable option. If I went to a 2k or 2500 point game, I would pack in trueborn to give some much needed range support.

The Haemi is gonna get stuck in a transport once he drops off his pain token, maybe I should toss a casket of flensing or crucible on him?

BTW, I forget to address what several people brought up..... popping transports. How soon you forget, or don't consider, surrounding a transport and popping it makes everything inside go squish since they have nowhere to disembark to.

Only with wrecked and the number of attacks your units are throwing at a vehicle menas an explodes is far more likely and your T3 and poor armour will come back to haunt you...

But as for the extra 35 points if you're not going trueborn for extra blasters then extra gear for the Haemi seems the only worthwhile spend...

It's your army and, if you're happy with it, that's all that matters. It's not like any of us are personally vested in it. KWIM?
Please keep in mind, when reading my opinions/advice/suggestions, that I mean that.

@ MagickalMemories

"Your Raiders will die easily. Moreso, because you didn't take Flicker Fields. So, your 5 man units will be hoofing it across the field more often than not. "

The raiders are being screened by Hellions and beastmasters (hellions). They will get a 4+ cover save.

By "beastmasters," I'm presuming you (literally) only mean the beastmasters, and not the beasts.
That said... you don't have enough skyboard models to give good cover saves to all of your vehicles. Plus, relying on a cover save from fragile units like Hellions isn't a great strategy. A couple units worth of SM shooting will blow a huge amount of those things out of the sky.

"You've got almost a third (29+%) of your army in those Beastmaster units, and none of the Beastmasters were even given any upgrades. You should drop them for larger troop units, IMO -- Maybe Reavers). "

What upgrade for the beastmasters? That comment doesn't even make any sense. 1 agoniser for 1 beastmaster with 1 attack, 2 on the charge is worthless, and that's the only upgrade in the codex.

Reavers are terrible, they are worse glass cannons then raiders. If you don't turbo boost they are dead, and if you get close enough to use a heat lance they are dead. Scourges I would consider, but never reavers.

The whole army is a glass hammer. Realizing that is part of playing the army.
Yes. Agonizer on the Beastmaster. It's the only guaranteed power weapon attack you'll have in the unit.
Reavers aren't terrible. They have their challenges but, in a well balanced army, they have their place.

I've played them and, while I *enjoy* beastmaster units, they are simply not competetive. There are far too many MEQ's in the tourney environment for them to be.
You've got a lot of attacks and a lot of wounds. I agree. The problem is that they're all wielding pillows... Big, fluffy pillows.
Your RWings can rend on a 6. That's a lot to hope for. Even then, against the wrong unit, that rend isn't going to be all that spectacular. The only thing worth a darn in the rest of the unit is the 4+ I save on the Khy's.
You can have all the wounds and attacks in the world. You only need to lose combat by 1 wound before you see hundreds of points go flitting off of the table. Any decent player will be sure to provide a 6" escort to ensure you make it there.

@Everyone

Please think about how fragile dark eldar are, and consider the army I've designed is exceptionally resilient. Trying to force 20 dark lances into an army is terrible. Do you really think you are going to outshoot IG? I've proxied a LOT of games, and every time found myself coming up short if I had 1 bad round of shooting, that is until I split into an anvil and hammer approach. Wyches and Incubi simply get shot down and rarely reach their intended target. The beastmasters can take a punishment and keep on trucking.




Take a look at this revised list please:

105 - Baron
85 - Haemonculus, WWP (for dawn of war)

335 - Hellion x 20 w/ Helliarch, Stunclaw
135 - Warriors x 5 w/ Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies
135 - Warriors x 5 w/ Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies
135 - Warriors x 5 w/ Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies

270 - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Razorwing Flock x 6, Khymera x 10
270 - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Razorwing Flock x 6, Khymera x 10

115 - Ravager, Flickerfield
115 - Ravager, Flickerfield
115 - Ravager, Flickerfield

Total: 1815

I'll do my best to keep my suggestions within the realm of what it allears you want to do here.

Your haemon's a waste of points (IMO) right now. Give him an Agonizer.
I reiterate my feelings on your Warrior units. They're going to get shot down early, then be picked off easily.

One thing to watch out for... All it takes is one round of shooting for your whole army to crumble.
Even with FNP, you'll only need to lose 6 Hellions to force a test on turn 1. What's the Baron's leadership? Nine?
(Sorry. Codex isn't with me.)
With a 9 Ld, you're going to fail more than 25% of your Ld tests.

Example:
10 Bolter shots from SM will hit an average of 5 times.
5 hits @ S4 vs T3 equals 4 wounds (rounded).
You don't get any armor saves on those, so you're stuck with FNP (presuming you have the token discussed earlier).
On average, you lose 2 models.

Three units worth of shooting like that, and you're forced into your test. Even worse if the SM's dice are hot (or yours aren't).
I don't recall off hand if Trophies will work for the Hellions. Presuming they do, though (and that they're still there at the end of shooting), it's still quite the gamble.

I have other advice, of course, but I'm keeping it to myself to be respectful of your request.

Eric

10 Bolter shots from SM will hit an average of 5 times.
5 hits @ S4 vs T3 equals 4 wounds (rounded).
You don't get any armor saves on those, so you're stuck with FNP (presuming you have the token discussed earlier).
On average, you lose 2 models.

They'll surely be getting a 3+ cover save too otherwise why take the Baron? That really changes up your maths, looking at less than 1 casualty now...

Not having the codex handy, and not having memorized it yet, I obviously forgot something about the Baron.

What is his rule on that?

Also, while it changes the math, that's about all it changes. The rest of the facts are the same.

Thanks.

Eric

He gives them stealth.

Which dramatically increases their survivability even without FnP. Obviously they could go to ground for a 2+ cover save but that would be counter productive.

Also you'll only fail an Ld9 test 1 time in 6 with re-rolls that is 1 time in 36 so the chances of them panicing and running away from shooting casualties are negligable.

MagickalMemories wrote:Your haemon's a waste of points (IMO) right now. Give him an Agonizer.
I reiterate my feelings on your Warrior units. They're going to get shot down early, then be picked off easily.

I agree the Haemi needs some upgrades, possibly something from the arcane section. I understand your concerns regarding the warriors, I would like to do something better, hence my experiment with wyches and wracks as well.

MagickalMemories wrote:I have other advice, of course, but I'm keeping it to myself to be respectful of your request.

I'm open to any advice, but everything else I have tried besides MSU warrior spam gets shot down before it ever gets to an IG front line or a SW Longfang. Putting repetitive things in the dark eldar army for redundancy is a necessity, thus the two beastmaster units. I don't know what kind of configuration you ran that you feel they aren't competitive, but this list is designed to force my opponent to peel off layers, and he really only has 1 turn to do it before I get into CC. I would love to see what list you run, or what you feel would make this list competitive.

@FlingitNow

You seem very well versed with the DE, do you feel this is viable, and if not can you show me the list you run atm?

You seem very well versed with the DE, do you feel this is viable, and if not can you show me the list you run atm?

It all depends on the beastmasters. If they are as good as you say then yes if they are as poor as I fear then no. Personally I trust a DE shooty list more than an assaulty list, so run Sliscus and lots of Trueborn and Darklight weapons. Not full on DL spam though I am tempted by it but at this point level I'd have the best part of 25 DL weapons (well I have nearly 30 in 2k which is what my DE list is built for).

Though personally I think if you're going assaulty and taking the Baron Hellion spam could be effective, though it requires Reavers to work effectively.

FlingitNow wrote:He gives them stealth.

Which dramatically increases their survivability even without FnP. Obviously they could go to ground for a 2+ cover save but that would be counter productive.

Also you'll only fail an Ld9 test 1 time in 6 with re-rolls that is 1 time in 36 so the chances of them panicing and running away from shooting casualties are negligable.

OKay, so their cover save goes up. Gotcha. Thanks.
That helps, but still only does so much. They'll die in droves to flamers and, once their within Rapid Fire range of those bolters, the # of shots doubles, as does the # of wounds.

Not to be a pedantic but, technically, it's 3 in 11 that they fail (10, 11 or 12) on LD 9 so, ::crunches #'s:: 1.636363(repeating) in 6.
Rounds up to 2 in 6.
In percentages, it's a matter of (about) 27% of the time vs (about) 16.5%.

Ashenshugar wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Your haemon's a waste of points (IMO) right now. Give him an Agonizer.
I reiterate my feelings on your Warrior units. They're going to get shot down early, then be picked off easily.

I agree the Haemi needs some upgrades, possibly something from the arcane section. I understand your concerns regarding the warriors, I would like to do something better, hence my experiment with wyches and wracks as well.

Depending on the role you have envisioned for him:
Agonizer. A P-Wpn wounding on a 4+? Yes, thank you! : )
Liquifier. It's a flamer with a kick (potentially). Mmmmkay. : )
I'm not a fan of the Casket or, really, any of the other "1 off" items. In my group, we've called it the "Casket of Milk Duds" ever since someone popped one open and rolled (IIRC) a 1 str and 6 ap. Basically, the ABSOLUTE worst rolls you can get. Granted, it's not indicative of what will happen EVERY time, but it's too random for an expensive 1-shot weapon, IMO.
Boost his squad. If you need him delivering a WWP, then give him more ablative wounds to soak up shots before they get to him.

Ashenshugar wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:I have other advice, of course, but I'm keeping it to myself to be respectful of your request.

I'm open to any advice, but everything else I have tried besides MSU warrior spam gets shot down before it ever gets to an IG front line or a SW Longfang. Putting repetitive things in the dark eldar army for redundancy is a necessity, thus the two beastmaster units. I don't know what kind of configuration you ran that you feel they aren't competitive, but this list is designed to force my opponent to peel off layers, and he really only has 1 turn to do it before I get into CC. I would love to see what list you run, or what you feel would make this list competitive.

Honestly, my overall advice wouldn't be helpful, at all. At this point level, I really don't believe that the Baron and a bunch of Hellions can be highly competetive. I think your army needs to be built around it AND have other big threats. I don't see the BMasters as those threats, because I've seen how they crumble in HtH. They're a tarpit unit, at best (presuming average rolls).

I'm absolutely in favor of repetetive units. I think you SHOULD do that in most armies, and especially in Dark Eldar.. It's the "S" in the MSU that I have a problem with. : ) I don't think DE are hearty enough for it like, say, SM's.
--FWIW, I know I keep using SM as my example, but that's because MEQ are the enemy you're most likely to see--

Honestly, if I was going to tweak your list -knowing me-, I'd end up with a VERY different list, in the end.
I'd start by turning those BMasters into squads of Incubi with Haemons in Raiders, using the 4 units of Warriors' Raiders as 4+ shields on the rush into HtH. The haemons would peel off as soon as they hit the ground, so as to give the Incubi their fleet back.
They'd leave the token behind, of course. : )
Knowing that the haemon would end up joining a Warrior unit, I'd want the warrior units bigger, for better survivability.
I wouldn't have enough points, so I'd end up pirating the points off of the hellion unit. Eventually, I'd look at how small the hellions had become, and I'd swap them out for something entirely different, too. LOL
Also, I'd want champions with PWpns in those Warrior units.
In the end, the only similarities we'd share would be the 3 Ravagers & the fact that there was haemon and warriors in the army. : )

Seriously, though. I hope I'm wrong. I hope the army does well for you.
I love the new DE army and models, in spite of them being a glass hammer and very different from any of the other armies I own (CSM, SM, Orks) or play (everythingelse, but Necrons & rarely SoB). That's WHY I like them, in fact.
I want them to have a LOT of viable builds, so I don't get bored.

Favor?
Take some good pics and post batreps of your tourney? Win or lose, I'd love to see how the games go.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Take some good pics and post batreps of your tourney? Win or lose, I'd love to see how the games go.

Will do.

OKay, so their cover save goes up. Gotcha. Thanks.
That helps, but still only does so much. They'll die in droves to flamers and, once their within Rapid Fire range of those bolters, the # of shots doubles, as does the # of wounds.

So they kill 1 Helion now I'm scared. Because you'll certainly have FnP by then as with a 24" potential charge range you should never be in rapidfire range untill you've been in assault. Yeah flamers are your enemy. The trick is to hit home against 2 units at the same time so you can wipe them in 2 rounds of combat.

Not to be a pedantic but, technically, it's 3 in 11 that they fail (10, 11 or 12) on LD 9 so, ::crunches #'s:: 1.636363(repeating) in 6.
Rounds up to 2 in 6.
In percentages, it's a matter of (about) 27% of the time vs (about) 16.5%.

It's not 3 in 11 it is 6 in 36 which is exactly 1 in 6. The results that you fail are:

6+6, 6+5, 5+6, 6+4, 4+6, 5+5

Out of 36 possible results with 2d6. aree yourlling a d11 for your tests? You should be rolling 2d6 not 1d11.

I was toying with the numbers and came up with this. Just wondering what you all thought about going in this direction:

105 - Baron
100 - Haemonculus w/ WWP, Shattershard

86 - Trueborn x 3 w/ Dark Lance x 2
86 - Trueborn x 3 w/ Dark Lance x 2

335 - Hellion x 20 w/ Helliarch, Stunclaw
125 - Wracks x 5 w/ Liquifier. Raider, Grisly Trophies
125 - Wracks x 5 w/ Liquifier. Raider, Grisly Trophies

270 - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Razorwing Flock x 6, Khymera x 10
270 - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Razorwing Flock x 6, Khymera x 10

115 - Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115 - Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115 - Ravager w/ Flickerfield

Total: 1847

I wanted more raiders with grisly trophies, but at this point level I just couldn't find a way to fit it in and keep aprox. 14 dark lances (this list has 15). I could drop a trueborn squad to beef the other up with 2 more bodies and grab a 3rd raider. 13.5 is the statistical average to score a destroyed result, and that's all an assault list should need to make sure land raiders and such aren't a problem.

So they kill 1 Helion now I'm scared. Because you'll certainly have FnP by then as with a 24" potential charge range you should never be in rapidfire range untill you've been in assault. Yeah flamers are your enemy. The trick is to hit home against 2 units at the same time so you can wipe them in 2 rounds of combat.

Assaulting TWO of my MEQ units with those Hellions? Heck yeah! I look forward to that!
The problem above is that you're speaking as if things are so solidly "one way or the other." You don't seem to be considering that "No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main strength."

It's not 3 in 11 it is 6 in 36 which is exactly 1 in 6. The results that you fail are:

6+6, 6+5, 5+6, 6+4, 4+6, 5+5

Out of 36 possible results with 2d6. aree yourlling a d11 for your tests? You should be rolling 2d6 not 1d11.

You got me on this one. I was simply going by results (10, 11, 12). Not by full math.
Thanks for the extra bit of smart assery at the end, though. it really made your point that much more respectable and has made me far more likely not to write you off as just another internet blowhard/tough guy.

Eric


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ashenshugar wrote:105 - Baron
100 - Haemonculus w/ WWP, Shattershard

86 - Trueborn x 3 w/ Dark Lance x 2
86 - Trueborn x 3 w/ Dark Lance x 2

335 - Hellion x 20 w/ Helliarch, Stunclaw
125 - Wracks x 5 w/ Liquifier. Raider, Grisly Trophies
125 - Wracks x 5 w/ Liquifier. Raider, Grisly Trophies

270 - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Razorwing Flock x 6, Khymera x 10
270 - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Razorwing Flock x 6, Khymera x 10

115 - Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115 - Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115 - Ravager w/ Flickerfield

Total: 1847

I like the inclusion of more dark lances, but I worry about the presence of only 3 troop choices.

Eric