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I believe I know that rule on this issue, but before i pass judgement I need feedback.

One of my fellow 40k player play with IG, and alway bring 3 Vendatta Gunship. He believes that its okay to measure from the base of the Vendatta rather than the model, so he places the Vendatta's tail off the board. I told him that illegal and is destory.

Now i know that I'm correct about models being off board, it destory but i cant find in the rules book.


so help me find the rule please

100% illegal to leave models off the board

Have a look at the BRB FAQ, you will find any model that does not make it on fully from reserves is destroyed. Models do not have permission to go outside the edges of the board so he cannot place them there

You cannot measure from the base, following the rules for skimmers with the added exception of using the base for embarking / disembarking and contesting objectives.

Thanks nosferatu1001

There was a big 22 page debate on this topic not so long ago, before the FAQ came out and cleared it up.

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

Note the OP didnt specifically mention reserves, I just mentioned it to cover the most likely reason someone would bring vendettas on 6" - in order to fire all the cannons

What about models that are already on the board but part of its base, hull, etc is hanging off the edge because of player movement.

Does the same rule apply?

How did the model get into that position?

Because there are no general rules for leaving the table beyond falling back.

mrfantastical wrote:What about models that are already on the board but part of its base, hull, etc is hanging off the edge because of player movement.

Does the same rule apply?

The player has no permission to move the model there in the first place. See my first post....

mrfantastical wrote:What about models that are already on the board but part of its base, hull, etc is hanging off the edge because of player movement.

Does the same rule apply?

Yeah, you can't have you hull hanging off for any reason. Vendettas have to move 12" and Baneblades have to do a crab walk on.


The ruler is sadly NOT on the table, no matter how much it hurts my brain to say.

Diplomacy Intervention Tactic:

Obviously the question about the rule has been answered, BUT:

If he makes a fuss about it, just tell him that the rule can be exploitative because the whole vehicle can't be shot at. Say you have a, i dunno, lascannon marine at the same table edge, but between the vendetta and marine is a stand of trees. The Vendetta can't be seen through the trees, but its tail can be seen off the board edge by the marine. If the marine can't shoot of the board edge, then the vendetta can't reasonably be allowed protection from being halfway off the board.

daedalus wrote:

The ruler is sadly NOT on the table, no matter how much it hurts my brain to say.

Keep in mind that your issue with the ruler not being on the table comes about because of differences in language.

In the "language" of the rules, the ruler is indeed not on the table.
In the "language" of real life, it is.


Just like in the "language" of math two negatives added together equals a positive, as opposed to the "language" of real life where two wrongs does not make a right.

I see these carefully hidden attempts at injecting real world reality and logic into rules discussions all the time.

At the risk of playing devil's advocate, is there anything denying checking range/LOS for something that's not positioned directly above part of the tabletop?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steelmage99 wrote:
Keep in mind that your issue with the ruler not being on the table comes about because of differences in language.

In the "language" of the rules, the ruler is indeed not on the table.
In the "language" of real life, it is.


Just like in the "language" of math two negatives added together equals a positive, as opposed to the "language" of real life where two wrongs does not make a right.

I see these carefully hidden attempts at injecting real world reality and logic into rules discussions all the time.

Yes, well, to be fair, you're supposed to fall back to the standard English definition of words when they're not explicitly defined in DA ROOLZ. Thankfully, with the new version of the FAQ, we now have a suitable rule for such an occasion.

As far as your language and concept of negative, I think you're conflating two different wildly separate definitions of negative, one being fact, the other concerning itself with more abstract concepts of justice and morality.

You also shouldn't assume such nefarious intent. I was merely putting it in terms of the original argument posed by Gwar, to which we now have an answer.

So I was discussing this with a necron buddy and he mentioned that a monolith is over 6" wide, can it not walk on from board edge? What about missions that font allow deepstrike and force heavies off the board, some modified dawn of war for example, would they be destroyed?

Yes, by the rules it would count as destroyed.

Keep in mind that this isn't indicative of the rule being the problem, but rather the model.

I thought it was FAQd that a Land Raider (and by extension a Monolith) could move on the table 6 inches to fire, and hang off the back side?

Am I mitsaken?

EDIT:

Well I couldn't find that in the space marines or 40k FAQ, hmm, I could have sworn I had seen that before. Ah well.

Nope, the exact opposite in fact

If it cant make it on the table it is destroyed

OK, but seems a bit harsh, for models that aren't 6 inches or less doesn't it?

Just surprising, balance wise, shouldn't any tank be able to drive onto a battle and fire?

I'm not trying to question the rules here, just, the balance. I don't think long models should be penalized. Drawing a difference between coming on from reserve and other intentionally placed moves like deep strike and normal movement.

Not "harsh", it's a balancing factor for being able to put anything into reserve - you may need to sacrifice a turn of shooting, or shoot less.

huge_eldar wrote:So I was discussing this with a necron buddy and he mentioned that a monolith is over 6" wide, can it not walk on from board edge? What about missions that font allow deepstrike and force heavies off the board, some modified dawn of war for example, would they be destroyed?

As I recall from the 22 odd page thread that discussed this issue before the new FAQ came out, a Monolith is just shy of 6" across, so it can indeed make it onto the table if coming from reserves that way.

That's good, because not being able to float on because of a max move of 6 inches would be absurd.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not "harsh", it's a balancing factor for being able to put anything into reserve - you may need to sacrifice a turn of shooting, or shoot less.

Well it surely seems that way now doesn't it. That's effectively 2 turns of lost shooting then, at least, T1 and T2, assuming it even shows up, I don't think I would do that in many circumstances. In Dawn of war it would take your first turn of shooting as well.

It also means all tanks larger than 6 inches in length must move onto the board at flank speed, never less? I understand the balance concept but that seems overly gamey, couldn't they just as legitimately cautiously advance? I guess not.

How is it "gamey"?

It is a function of the model. Is it "gamey" to be able to shoot more easily at a Valkyrie, when other skimmers could have gained cover from a lower building than it can?

How is it gamey for you to take a known, calculated risk (turn it arrives, how many weapons it can fire when it turns up) to put all of your models in reserve when deploying second?

Prior to the FAQ they COULD "cautiously advance" - GW said no.

Augustus wrote:That's good, because not being able to float on because of a max move of 6 inches would be absurd.

If it could not DS there would definitely be issues.

A friend that plays Necrons insists monoliths are slightly more than 6" and plays it as such.

/shrug

nosferatu1001 wrote:How is it "gamey"?

Because a models behavior under the same set of rules isnt consistent, becoming dependant on model length. A predator could move on and fire and a landraider can't because it's bigger.

That's just a poor abstraction, caused by a geometric oddity, I'd call that gamey, as in doesn't make much practical sense, for game balance reasons, and appears to be caused by flukes in the rules.

Thinking about this a little more, I suppose one could move a landraider on sideways, where the dimension is smaller laterally, and then only have gone 6 inches, which is technically correct but practically silly as clearly tracked vehicles don't go sideways (well I suppose it could be rolling over sideways...). Another example of something gamey, coming on sideways to move 6 and get the shot(s).

EDIT:

If you don't see whats wrong with telling a Necron player they can't come in from reserves with their Monolith because it can only move 6 and therefore can not get completely on the board, I don't think anything I can explain will help. So in Dawn of war they have to deep strike or be destroyed when they arrive from reserves? That's what we are talking about here.

Augustus wrote:So in Dawn of war they have to deep strike or be destroyed when they arrive from reserves? That's what we are talking about here.

And valkyries, for example, need to show side armor. We are indeed talking about the rules here.

It isnt gamey: it's the rules

Seriously - should the Valkyrie get to be mounted on a lower base, as it's gamey that it cant get cover saves so easily?

The size and height of models frequently has a game impact.

This ruling is making players (particularly, but not exclusively, people using Valkyries) obey one of the bedrock assumptions of wargames- the table edge is the edge of the area of play. You cannot have a unit overhang it.

The only problem I have with this rule is that it makes reserving Baneblades utterly useless. I suppose a quick house rule fixes it though, we let them hang over the edge.

However, is there any way to bring a baneblade on from reserve? If you come on and turn 90 degrees you can't turn back without going over the edge again, so you are stuck.

Landraiders can still shoot the turn they arrive thanks to the PotMS. Valks can too because they are Fast. The baneblade, strickly speaking, is not a legal 40k model so you need not worry about how it makes it on the table.

The Monolith is 6" long, and 6.5" wide. It must face forward or backwards in order to arrive from reserve, unless it is deep striking. No one is going to split the hair of a model trying to get on legitimately. A LR can show up and turn 90 and get on the table. Valks cannot.

MARINE landraiders can. Chaos dont get PotMS, not anymore.

The Baneblade IS a legal 40k model - it's in IA1 and takes a complete force org.

The Baneblade is a hole in the FAQ rule. If you're playing a game allowing one, you need to come to agreement about how to handle it with your opponent.