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Unit of Space Marines are locked in combat with a unit of Killa Kanz, Ork Boyz then charge and the Marines are in base contact with both the Kanz and the Orks. Can the Marines split attacks onto the Orks and Kanz or must they fight the Kanz as already in combat?

E.G:

KK KK KK
SM SM SM
OB OB


Can the Space Marines engaged with both the Kanz and Orks split attacks to both enemy units, put attacks just on one unit or only attack the Kanz because they was previously engaged with them before the Boyz charged.

Thanks

It is covered in the new ERRATA.

Basically you can attack whomever you are in BTB with.


ERRATA
Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
A third bullet point should be added, as follows:
• Models that at the beginning of the combat (before any
model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy
unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy
units, must attack that unit.
Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
In all three bullet points, the word ʻcombatʼ will be changed
to ʻround of combatʼ

Thanks. Was getting confused then. Though before you couldn't do that could you?

Well you could - the errata just makes it explicit what "start of combat" means

The explanation which leads to noone being able to attack the new unit ALSO leads to NOONE being able to attack in the first round of CC. Oddly enough people just gloss that over.

What explanation? The one above just says models basically in b2b can attack only which was my issue as we've been playing say a unit of terminators is in combat with a mob of guardsmen, other unit of terminators pile in and the guardsmen can't attack the terminators as they wasn't in base to base combat to start off with. As you said the errata has just confirmed what start of combat actually means.

mercer wrote:What explanation? The one above just says models basically in b2b can attack only which was my issue as we've been playing say a unit of terminators is in combat with a mob of guardsmen, other unit of terminators pile in and the guardsmen can't attack the terminators as they wasn't in base to base combat to start off with. As you said the errata has just confirmed what start of combat actually means.

I think you're reading the errata incorrectly. It makes it clear that combat starts when it's time to start rolling the dice. Until you start rolling the dice, models haven't attacked. When it's time to start rolling the dice is when you evaluate who is in BTB or engaged.

kmdl1066 wrote:

mercer wrote:What explanation? The one above just says models basically in b2b can attack only which was my issue as we've been playing say a unit of terminators is in combat with a mob of guardsmen, other unit of terminators pile in and the guardsmen can't attack the terminators as they wasn't in base to base combat to start off with. As you said the errata has just confirmed what start of combat actually means.

I think you're reading the errata incorrectly. It makes it clear that combat starts when it's time to start rolling the dice. Until you start rolling the dice, models haven't attacked. When it's time to start rolling the dice is when you evaluate who is in BTB or engaged.

No, Mercer is right. You can only attack the unit you were in BTB with at the beginning of the "combat"...which should be the "Assault Phase." And since a new unit attacking would move into BTB at the beginning of the assault phase, you cannot attack them until the next assault phase, when you will be in BTB with them at the beginning of the Assault Phase. So, OP(Mercer), you cannot attack the incoming unit until your next assault phase, as you were not in BTB with them.
And the errata says nothing about rolling dice...lol...so I don't get your argument that the errata makes it clear that combat starts when the dice start rolling...how can that be clear when dice aren't even mentioned?

Shenra wrote:No, Mercer is right. You can only attack the unit you were in BTB with at the beginning of the "combat"...which should be the "Assault Phase."

The beginning of the assault phase is not the beginning of the round of combat.

The beginning of the assault phase is the part where you move all of your assaulting unit, and the defender performs his reaction moves. You then move on to resolving the individual combats.

The round of combat for that unit, therefore, comes after all charges have been resolved. You determine who can fight at this point, not at the start of the phase.

And DeathReaper, you CAN attack whoever you are in BTB with...at the BEGINNING of the assault phase...and since the orks moved into combat DURING the assault phase, they are not eligible to attack. The Marines will have to assault the Kanz for one more round.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

Shenra wrote:No, Mercer is right. You can only attack the unit you were in BTB with at the beginning of the "combat"...which should be the "Assault Phase."

The beginning of the assault phase is not the beginning of the round of combat.

The beginning of the assault phase is the part where you move all of your assaulting unit, and the defender performs his reaction moves. You then move on to resolving the individual combats.

The round of combat for that unit, therefore, comes after all charges have been resolved. You determine who can fight at this point, not at the start of the phase.

Insaniak, if you say so, I'll definitely have to refer to the BRB for the definition of combat...although I've never seen it played like this. If this is true, I need to let alot of people know.

Shenra - did you read the errata? It entirely contradicts you. Entirely

As I pointed out: your position results in noone being able to attack int eh first round of combat. Noone.

Which is so obviously false it should tell you something...

No, Mercer is right. You can only attack the unit you were in BTB with at the beginning of the "combat"...which should be the "Assault Phase." And since a new unit attacking would move into BTB at the beginning of the assault phase, you cannot attack them until the next assault phase

So no-one ever attacks in the first round of combat?!?!?!

Shenra wrote:Insaniak, if you say so, I'll definitely have to refer to the BRB for the definition of combat...although I've never seen it played like this. If this is true, I need to let alot of people know.

For what it's worth, your way is a very common mis-interpretation. But it's exactly what the FAQ was trying to address with the wording change.

What the whole multiple combats and the errata mean:

You have a unit locked in combat, it gets charged by a second unit.

Some of your models from your unit are in base to base with only the first unit, some are in base to base with only the second unit, and some are in base to base with both.

Now the third step of the assault phase is to determine who can attack, and who they can attack.

The models in base to base with the first unit are technically also engaged with the second unit is they are within 2' of a model in base to base with the second unit, but they cannot attack the second unit because they are in base to base with the first unit. The same goes for models in base to base with only the second unit(all of this assumes that by this point your whole unit will be at least within 2" of a model in base to base with the first unit, because by the second round of Close combat with the first unit; they should be). models that are in base to base with both units can freely choose which to attack at their initiative step.

Now, when you start going through the Initiative steps by the time some of your models get to swing, the model(or models) they were in base to base with may well have been destroyed. In the event that your model was in base to base with the first unit, but only engaged with the second unit, and the model from the first unit is destroyed by the time that model's Initiative step comes around, that model must still make attacks on the first unit, even if by the step he is no longer even engaged with them.

Should the situation arise that the entire first unit is destroyed by the Initiative step of the model that is only in base to base with the first unit and engaged with the second, that model may not make any attacks in that round of combat.

And I stand by my earlier statement...after looking at the rulebook...even though it makes me uneasy to disagree with a MOD...sorry.

I see the BRB (page 41) says "Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit."

The errata doesn't change this first bullet...it adds a third bullet that says if a model in a unit is engaged with multiple units, it can only engage the unit it is BTB with. In the OP's scenario, a new unit attacked, and the marines cannot attack them until the next turn.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nosferatu...what wording exactly are you referring to which states no CC can even occur in Round one? I thought we were talking about multiple units assaulting, and obviously if the units were already locked in combat, it can't be round one.

I don't see what I'm missing. From what I see, the rulebook clearly states that you have to attack the original unit you were in locked with. From what I see, the errata covers what you should do if at the beginning of combat you are locked with two or more units, which models are allowed to attack which units. The OP isn't even talking about being locked with multiple units, he's talking about a unit assaulting a unit that's already locked.

Kommisar, if your scenario had one unit locked with two units, and then you had to decide which models could attack which unit, this is what the errata covers. But the OP is asking about a unit that's locked with one unit, and then another unit attacks. The first bullet under multiple assaults clearly covers this, saying that the models must assault the unit they were originally locked with.

I see what you three are saying. I just can't balance what you're saying with what I'm reading in the BRB. I must Respectfully disagree.

But I am interested in how the wording states you cannot assault in CC the first turn.

Nos and insaniak are correct, because of this clause in the ERRATA

ERRATA
Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
In all three bullet points, the word ʻcombatʼ will be changed
to ʻround of combatʼ

so you have to attack who you are engaged with after assault and defenders react moves, but before blows are struck.


EG.

T= Terminator, O=Ork, N = nob, M=Marine


MMMMMT N
OOOOOT

the marines are fighting the Orks

The Nob Assaults

MMMMMTN
OOOOOT

the Terminators can now attack the Orks or the Nob, since they would be in B2B with both of those units after assault and defenders react moves, but before any blows are struck.

Shenra wrote:And I stand by my earlier statement...after looking at the rulebook...even though it makes me uneasy to disagree with a MOD...sorry.

Being a Mod has nothing whatsoever to do with my ability to read the rules of the game... My opinion on rules issues is no more or less valid than the next guy's. So disagree away if you are so inclined

I see the BRB (page 41) says "Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit."

The errata doesn't change this first bullet...it adds a third bullet that says if a model in a unit is engaged with multiple units, it can only engage the unit it is BTB with. In the OP's scenario, a new unit attacked, and the marines cannot attack them until the next turn.

So on what are you basing the idea that the beginning of the combat is the beginning of the phase? Because there are a number things that happen at the beginning of the phase before you actually resolve any combat.

Shenra wrote:so I don't get your argument that the errata makes it clear that combat starts when the dice start rolling...how can that be clear when dice aren't even mentioned?

Applying the errata for pg. 41 for the second bullet you get:

"Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the round of combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those unitss"

And bullet three becomes:

"Models that at the beginning of the round of combat (before any model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy units, must attack that unit."

When do models attack? When you roll the dice. So in this round of combat, just before you start rolling dice you figure out who is in BTB and who is engaged.

Ok. Death, Nos, Insaniak and Kommisar, thanks for explaining this to me.

Now the hard part will be convincing pretty much everyone I know that this is how it works now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

Shenra wrote:And I stand by my earlier statement...after looking at the rulebook...even though it makes me uneasy to disagree with a MOD...sorry.

Being a Mod has nothing whatsoever to do with my ability to read the rules of the game... My opinion on rules issues is no more or less valid than the next guy's. So disagree away if you are so inclined

I see the BRB (page 41) says "Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit."

The errata doesn't change this first bullet...it adds a third bullet that says if a model in a unit is engaged with multiple units, it can only engage the unit it is BTB with. In the OP's scenario, a new unit attacked, and the marines cannot attack them until the next turn.

So on what are you basing the idea that the beginning of the combat is the beginning of the phase? Because there are a number things that happen at the beginning of the phase before you actually resolve any combat.

I guess I was basing it on what the experienced players taught me when I first picked up the game, and how I've seen the tournies in my area run. Also, I can see how someone can assume that round of combat and assault phase are two names for the same thing. Heck, the last tournie I was in I faced a SW player who had been playing for over ten years, and he followed the same misconception.

It's easier to wrap your head around if you look at the fact that each group of models in close combat counts as a separate combat. It's not just one vast melee that covers the whole board.

So when a rule refers to the start of the combat, ir is referring to the actual, distinct combat being fought by the unit in question, rather than the start of the phase... The phase is just the overall time period in which all of the individual rounds of combat are fought for that turn.

I'm happy to be wrong on this one. I never liked the way I've played that rule to begin with.

It's crazy that so many people and tournies play the game the wrong way.

I think that's because most people read/learn the rule without the errata. And "combat" is pretty vague. The errata to "round of combat" makes it much more clear what they meant by combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shenra wrote:Ok. Death, Nos, Insaniak and Kommisar, thanks for explaining this to me.

Now the hard part will be convincing pretty much everyone I know that this is how it works now.

Just noticed this in the FAQ, which when combined with the errata to change "combat" to "round of combat" should be pretty clear and convincing:

Q: For multiple combats there are two extra rules under
the heading ʻAttackingʼ. For these rules, at what point is “at
the beginning of the combat”? (p41)
A: It is after defenders react when you pick the combat but
before any attacks have been rolled.

thanks kmdl...that'll help

DeathReaper wrote:EG.

T= Terminator, O=Ork, N = nob, M=Marine


MMMMMT N
OOOOOT

the marines are fighting the Orks

The Nob Assaults

MMMMMTN
OOOOOT

Just as a heads-up DR, your example is an illegal assault operation.

The Top line terminator would have to sweep around his termie buddy during the "Pile-in" step of the previous assault phase(to get in B2B with an ork boy), and would not be eligible for assault by the Nob(the other temi however, would be cool to assault!).

Also, Top-line termie would not be able to delegate attacks to the Ork squad as it is only in b2b with the Nob, the bottom line (in your example) would also only be able to assault the ork boyz as he is only in b2b with them.

Also as for "Before blows are struck" what that means is that after everyone is situated (after the final "Defenders react" ((which they shouldn't be able to do if they are already involved in CC...))) you should probably take a quick picture of the assault. (mental picture if you need to, but I know in our 8man FFAs, the assaults can get rather crazy!) That picture lets you know who can/can't attack whom (example. Orkz 1-4 can only attack marines, 5 can choose termi/ork if he is still alive at his init step even if lower-level termi is killed, nob can only attack termi, Marines can only attack orkz). Typically, this is only truly signficant in the case of "seargents" (things with upgraded wargear) and ICs (which have seperate assault rules all togeather!) so it really shouldn't matter when talking "Base Boyz vs Base Marines"