1500 CSM, which is better?

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**Ailaros**

So, as I start mulling over options for a new army, I'm once again starting with one of the couple of codecies I have access to: Chaos space marines. I've narrowed it down to 3 options...

A.)

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

Sorcerer, gifts, wings
- 150

Sorcerer, gifts, wings
- 150

14-man raptor squad with LCs, 2x melta, IoCG

14-man raptor squad with LCs, 2x melta, IoCG

or...

B.)

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

Sorcerer, gifts, bike
- 160

Sorcerer, gifts, bike
- 160

8 chaos bikers, fist, 2x melta

8 chaos bikers, fist, 2x melta

or...

C.)

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

5xCSM, 2x melta, fist, rhino
- 170

Sorcerer, gifts, terminator armor
- 145

Sorcerer, gifts, terminator armor
- 145

8 terminators, 3 lightning claws, 2 chainfists, champ with claws, MoK

8 terminators, 3 lightning claws, 2 chainfists, champ with claws, MoK

So, I like C because it's ludicrous. I can't imagine anything in the game I can't roflstomp with 8 MoK termies with a gifts sorcerer. Then, of course, I bring TWO of them. The problem with C is that it's slow. There are a fair number of skimmer armies where I play, and I'm sort of starting to get sick of chasing them down on foot.

Which brings me to list B. 24" turboboosting? Catching skimmers is no problem. This option also affords me the best flexibility. Not only is in the most mobile, but it has a strong shooting element with the twin-linked bolters if ever I don't want to get into close combat. My biggest complaint, though, is that this list seems really low-powered. It still has the core of chaos space marine awesomeness, but I'm only bringing 16 of them. I don't think that chaos bikes are overcosted, but I'd have to do a pretty darn good job of using them to squeeze out their more limited potential.

Which brings me to list A. Raptors fix this obnoxious problem I have of having to chase down stuff. Simultaneously, with all that chainswording, it actually packs a pretty decent punch. My biggest gripe with this list is that it's, by far, the most fragile. The fate of the army depends on 30 dudes in power armor making it work exactly right. Plus, without 2+/5++ or T5 3+/3++, I fear for their durability.

In any case, I'm looking for something bombastic and flashy, and this is my first attempt so far. What do you guys think?

**Lycaeus Wrex**

I question the usefulness of putting fists in 5-man squads. It's not a good idea in C:SM lists and its probably not too hot of an idea in CSM either. You can save 40pts per squad if you drop the Champion and the fist which, across three squads, would allow you to buy another squad.

You also need a squad size of 10 to have a second meltagun.

L. Wrex

**MadMaverick76**

I think he can have 2x melta in the squads if they are dedicated CSMs. Anyway, the lists are lacking long-distance firepower.

Raptors, bikes are just not effective to me, but to each his own. If I had to pick, I would go with the bikes list I guess. CSM termies are better used as suicide units. The bikes list helps with the lack of firepower though by hitting like the tip of the spear.

Any ideas sir?

**Ailaros**

No, Lycaeus is right. I can't have two meltaguns unless I have 10-man squads. Originally, my plan was to have 4 10-man squads without rhinos, but I'm looking to skimp a bit on the infantry so that I can put more pizzaz in my glamor units.

Lack of long-range firepower is not a concern of mine. ESPECIALLY when I've got things like bikes or raptors. My only problem with tanks is catching them (which means I don't have problems with tanks at close range unless they're skimmers).

That or if they're terminators. I've routinely trashed terminator-heavy armies with my power blobs, but I've got a feeling that they're doing it wrong. The math is there, which is why I'd even bother to consider them. I mean, for example, the above setup for a terminator squad kills something like 24 guardsmen on the charge. If anything survives, I can always use gifts on it. My only problem is that I'd have to chase down skimmers the old fashioned way...

Also, I'm not too concerned about the effectiveness of the faster options, honestly. Remember, they're going to have BS4 melta, krak grenades and a guy with a force weapon and gifts of chaos. That puts vehicles, monstrous creatures, and deathstars in their place in an awful hurry.

The real question is what to do with the troops. I was using rhinos to target saturate against the bling part of the list, but that might not be possible while still having even remotely useful troops choices.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I'm a worshipper of Khorne but I have used Nurgle forces, and the plaguefather has been very, VERY kind to me. Plague Marines outfitted with special weapons are devastating. Their FnP and T5 makes them many times more survivable than standard marines than their points total might suggest. They also have all types of grenades (minus melta bombs) as standard, meaning they arn't afraid of being charged. This makes them great as a unit you drive up, dump and rapid fire the crap out of whatever is close enough. They're hard to kill, annoying as hell, and fun to convert. And they're very cost effectve (given that each one has more than twice the survivability of a normal marine with one extra grenade and costing only 7 points more makes them a steal).

Nurgle Bikers are kinda expensive, but you then get a T6 Bike that can run around firing melta guns or plasma guns. Bolters and Lasguns will curse your name. Both of these units can be good distraction units to draw away heavy weapons fire (S8+ weapons will be the only effective counter against both) from your bling units.

**Ailaros**

Are MoN terminators worth considering? I know that CSM don't have storm shields, but perhaps T5 2+/5++ would be enough?

Oh, and I just did the math on guardsmen v. plague marines and loled. 72 lasgun shots to down a single marine?

**MechaEmperor7000**

yes, PMs are retardedly survivable. I face a guard footslogger army once with 2 squads of 20 plague marines. 750 points of dead guardsman, three dead PMs (one due to a meltagun shot). They're awesome distilled into pus form. They're also perfect canidates for Power Fists, as their I3 means that against anything but guard or Orks, they're not at an initiative penalty.

I use Nurgle Terminators purely for a themed force (I like Typhus and he deserves his own bodyguard). However I dont like them as a whole, since you'd be trying to punch through the Terminator armor first, and (usually) anything strong enough to punch through that also wounds a T5 model on a 3 or a 2+ anyways. If you do run them, run them as a DSing squad with max squads (to make the most out of the Nurgle Icon) and Combi-Meltas. It'd make an ass out of anyone's day.

**Ailaros**

Why deepstrike them? Wouldn't T5 help them with walking?

Were I to do the terminator option, they'd be walking in either case. The question would be to lose one or two more along the way and make up for it with +1A on everybody, or to simply loose less along the way?

I do see your point about them collecting lascannon fire, though, which is bad for a more expensive model for whom T5 is their best attribute. Of course, for less than 4 points a model, that's not actually THAT bad. Regardless of the terminator strategy, they would be relying on numbers more than anything else to be successful. The problem, of course, is this bothersome slowness thing. I just can't see how the speed of nurgle bikers justifies them doing half the damage for a slightly greater cost. Perhaps it's just because I don't "get" biker armies.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I havent used Nurgle Bikers actually, mostly because Plague Marines take up the most of my Nurgle army. However, if you are going to have expensive bikes running around shooting at stuff (really, the only thing bikes are good at. Berserkers are much better in assault, even if they're slower) then the MoN is the best for them. I prefer MoN over MoT better because a 5+ save really isnt that comforting, and being T6 they might not get as much high AP flak as terminators (who actually warrents the high AP). They can also turboboost if necessary.

DSing Terminators can still be devastating, since they're quite a bit cheaper than normal Terminators and pack some heavy punch with twin-linked bolters. They're not really going to sit a whole round doing nothing, and this way they onyl suffer one round of shooting as opposed to 2 or more they will spending running across the board.

**Ailaros**

So would you assume that such a termie nurgle list at 1500 would look something like...

7 plague marines, fist, 2x melta, rhino
-256

7 plague marines, fist, 2x melta, rhino
-256

Sorcerer, gifts, terminator armor
- 145

Sorcerer, gifts, terminator armor
- 145

8 terminators, 2 lightning claws, chainfist, champ with fist, 2x combi-melta, MoN
-350

8 terminators, 2 lightning claws, chainfist, champ with claws, 2x combi-melta, MoN
-345

On the one hand, I see your point about wanting to deepstrike in and termicide something when they arrive. On the other hand, the primary purpose of these guys is to laugh at stuff in close combat, including gross stuff like death company.

Plus... I don't know how brave I feel about deepstriking 500 point squads into melta range...

**MechaEmperor7000**

I personally wouldnt take Power Fists at all on termies. The points can be better spent elsewhere imo. Chainfists are much better and for everything else you'd want to use the Termie's I4 with a Power Weapon.

For Plague Marines, run them in squads of 10. It's unfluffy, but very powerful. A squad of 10 PMs pump out 6 more bolter shots when doing drive by shootings and add another 6 CC attacks. I would also only take one squad of termies (unless you really like them) as PM spam does work, and very effectively too.

I would switch out Gift for Wind of Chaos. it's basically a AP1 Poisoned Flamer (which fits with the Nurgle theme very well). and will probably kill a lot more than Gift. Gift is really fun though, especially when you turn your opponent's most precious character into a mewling spawn.

Finally, maybe consider a unit of MoN Havocs. T5 is one of the better upgrades for them since they can take alot more ranged punishment now. Oblits are nice, but given that you have experience in ranged combat, you should be able to make the most of Havocs (which are much cheaper than Oblits if you have a set goal for them). Plus Oblits get ID'd from a single lascannon shot, CSM will probably just loose a bolter-member instead.

**Ailaros**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I personally wouldnt take Power Fists at all on termies. The points can be better spent elsewhere imo. Chainfists are much better and for everything else you'd want to use the Termie's I4 with a Power Weapon.

Ah, see, I was getting confused by your advice to take power fists, which I now see was directed towards the plague marines only.

Drop the combi-meltas for a second chainfist, or is the one chainfist+2 melta shots enough?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Plague Marines, run them in squads of 10. It's unfluffy, but very powerful.

If I have the points. The choice of 7 was not for fluff reasons.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I would switch out Gift for Wind of Chaos. it's basically a AP1 Poisoned Flamer (which fits with the Nurgle theme very well). and will probably kill a lot more than Gift. Gift is really fun though, especially when you turn your opponent's most precious character into a mewling spawn.

So, gifts has got to stay. Not only for the cool factor, I'm bringing it for tactical reasons.

As I said before, I'm not looking for the most competitive ever, but I'm also looking to make sure that nothing has a horrible trump on it.

One of those things that my second army must be able to handle is my first army. I'm actually pretty confident that a khorne army would be able to handle a power blob. Sure, they're not going to be able to scoop down to the zesty innards on turn 1, but power blobs rely on damage over time, and they just don't get as much time against khorne units. Now, needing to wound on 6's sounds pretty tough to me with nurgle, but I fear that a unit of plague marines and a power blob would just tar pit each other, and my blobs lists have more troops units than this nurgle army.

Hence gifts. Power blobs don't do so hot when you lose the commissar. The commissar is lost on a 4+ with gifts. I like those odds. Likewise, a jetlock council is tough to beat, but once the T3 farseer explodes, those invul saves stop being rerollable. Yeah, I know eldar have psychic defense, but I'm bringing TWO sorcerers...

An Ap1 poisoned flamer does sound nice, but I don't think I'd get as much deathstar-killing power out of it. Plus, if I'm running the sorcerers with close-combat terminators, I don't want to kill myself out of a charge.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Finally, maybe consider a unit of MoN Havocs.

Sure, but with what points? I'm not looking for a well-balanced army, I'm looking for a flashy and bombastic army.

such a squad would cost 220 points. I can scarcely take them from troops, and I'd be seriously reducing my flash if I took them away from the terminators/raptors/bikes. I mean, I might consider taking a little bit away to flesh out my troops a little more.

Other thoughts:

- I've been assuming to run the sorcerers in the flash squads, is there an argument to be made for taking them with the plague marines?

- For competitiveness, there are really only 3 armies that I want to have appropriate stomping power against. The first is power blob equivalent armies. The second is mech-guard-equivalent armies with the third being DE raider spam. A nurgle-based army would probably be fine against the former, but I'm having a little unease with regards to mechvets, especially since in their eldar incarnation, they've got skimmers. Are nurgle armies okay against DE? The poison thing sounds like it neutralizes the main advantage of nurgle, but they still get their FNP. Can this chase down raiders in enough time to stop poisoned weapons from just ripping them apart?

**logg_frogg**

My best advice to you at this point is to go read some other CSM lists in this forum aswell as some Chaos Tactica in the Articles section if you are serious about playing them competetively.

You have some good ideas but your squad sizes and wargear are all over the map.

Hope to see another list out of you soon!

**Asgeirr Darkwolf**

Alright- I want to add on to what the above posters have said- you're on the right track; but looking at other lists will give you some ideas. Now, I have only played my CSM a couple of times, and have picked up some useful tidbits:

1. No matter how much you love them, CSM got a bit of the short end of the sticks in the codex department. FOr an assaulting army, their fast attacks are horribly overpriced and bad. 20 points pere raptor? the SM variant is cheaper, and better. Bikers are, as well, overcosted for their points. SO I say: Stay away form fast attack. However, on squad of 5 raptors and a meltagun isn't too horrible.

2. Look at your HQ Choices. Now look for the entry, 'Daemon Prince'. Look again. Now take them. DP's are simply the best HQ choice in the 'dex- YOU WILL LOVE THEM! Take them with wings and warptime- works like a charm. Or, do a lash DP.

3. Unless you want to be fluffy; mixing and matching gods is best. For instance; Zerkers and Plague marines are your best specialist troop choices, and I would take them depending on your needs. However, khorne DP's are BAD. Kharn is better. if you want a DP, then Nurgle is good. But if you want a special character, Typhus is just bad. Tzeentch termies are also good. So don't stick to one god.

4. Termies for Chaos are good in a combi-weapon/power weapon loadout. Fists can be good too, as are claws. Experiment to find out hwat works best for you, and mixing/ matching weapons are great.

Hope this helps!

**Ailaros**

Firstly, one of the things to note is that I'm not looking for that one cookie cutter DP+oblits list that everyone claims is the only one chaos can be competitive with. I'm WAY too avant-guarde for that.

What I'm looking for is mathematically sound, not popular. In fact, mathematically sound and UNpopular would be preferable. Chaos actually has a good codex, and I'd care to prove it.

I'm a little confused about the comment regarding wargear being all over the map, though.

**Asgeirr Darkwolf**

See, what I mena by the DP's is that you need to experiment a bit. Reach outside your comfort zone. You can use 'cookie cutter' units, but give them different ingredients. For instance, one might try a tzeench DP with wings, Bolt of change and gift of chaos, or something altogether different, like takeing Huron.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Nurgle DPs are really fun to play and are quite fluffy to boot. Competitive or not, slumping a T6 Eternal MC at your opponent is always fun. Wings are almost manditory for them though, as footslogging the entire way with no cover save and a paultry 5+ invul means that you'd be staring down every single lascannon in your opponent's army.

I also suggested Havocs because There use to be a set called Death Guard Havocs, which again makes them fluffy (and, in a rare case, somewhat competitive). Plus, Havocs are pretty underrated given that everyone picks either a pred, vindi or oblit over them. I personally like them, because they just dish out so much punishment and can take so much as well due to a 4+ cover save they will most certainly get, as well as T5 for MoN. However more PM units are always nice. Havocs with Autocannon spam might help with DE Raider spam, given that they dish out 2 shots per autocannon and pens on a 4+. It also helps neutralize the DE's own FnP, which can really turn the tide of battle to your favour.

I didnt know you had a specific purpose in mind for Gift. If so it should stay. If you do ever face MEQ Deathstar units though you can always switch it out for Wind with no problems. As for the Sorceror running with normal PMs, the PM, even without a champ, should do fine. Believe it or not I actually outnumbered a Eldar Guardian army once with PMs (the guy took too much flashy stuff, ending up with many more vehicles than me, but consequently lost almost all of it to meltagun fire) and PMs are just so hard to put down. Ironically, they compliment Kharn very well, as they're a good wound sponge for the Khorne champion until he gets into combat, where the PMs can just leave the fighting to Kharn and go shoot up something else.

If your not going for a themed force, then adding some berserkers is a good choice. Each Berserker, on the charge, is basically a naked SM captain from 4th edition in terms of attacks he dishes out. but for 1/3 of the points. They also have +1 strength. They're slower than Raptors, but even just 4 or 3 making it into combat will seriously mess up someone's day.

**Ailaros**

Actually, I'm not yet a chaos, player, so I don't have a comfort zone. I'm not interested in demon princes mostly because demon princes can't take gifts of chaos.

... although a secondary reading of the demon prince entry shows me they can. I suppose what I was looking for in sorcerers was more the ability to hide them in a squad.

with DP's being MCs, and with not much else to shoot at, it strikes me that they might have a tendency to die quickly...

**Samus_aran115**

Imo, CSM in five man units are absolutely worthless. They're about half as survivable as plague marines, and can't take a second melta. FNP make plague marines last the entire game, while regular dudes might last.. Three turns...

The raptor list is silly. They'll get shot to pieces. No question about it. Unless you deep strike them, which is silly when you have so Many models.

I vote for the terminator list.

**Ailaros**

I suppose the raptor list was more of a carry-over from a previous list idea I had of 4x 10-man CSM squads with fist, 2x melta, IoCG, 2 winged sorcerers with gifts, and 2 raptor squads with fists and melta. In that scenario, I had enough power armor on the field to saturate the raptors, but I suppose not now.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Sorcerors are better in your case then. If you do continue with Chaos then I'd expect to see a masterfully converted sorc!

**Samus_aran115**

Yeah, that would work. Those foot units would have been a great distraction. They're just too small now, and would probably be ignored, then shot off after the raptors got overwhelmed.

I do like the terminator list though. It packs a nice punch

**Ailaros**

I like the terminator list as well. My problem, though, is that my local meta is all fast all the time. There is a heavy population of Eldar, Blood Angel, and Dark Eldar players. Practically every army except for my guard one has a skimmer, fast vehicles, or a couple of things with jump packs/wings.

I love the raw killing power of the terminators, but I'm somewhat reluctant to start ANOTHER army that spends most of its time slowly chasing down 24" moving units. With my guard army, at least I have such a commanding field presence that it's difficult to move anywhere that isn't in melta threat range after turn 3, but with a space marine army, much less a nurgle army...

**Samus_aran115**

Well then.. It seems like the answer to your meta would be havocs/ obliterators/dreadnoughts. For fast armies, the key is killing them before they get close, and ML havocs really work well for this (more than oblits, imo). Dreadnoughts can work too ( lascannon plus ML is nice). Oblits have lascannons and plasma cannons, which can perform a variety of duties.

It's up to you though. CSM can take all kinds of dakka.

**Ailaros**

Samus_aran115 wrote:Well then.. It seems like the answer to your meta would be havocs/ obliterators/dreadnoughts.

I can see the havocs, but oblits and dreads?

Samus_aran115 wrote:For fast armies, the key is killing them before they get close

Woah, you and I have completely opposite philosophies about this.

I've found that the problem with fast armies isn't that you can't possibly kill them all before they get to your lines (because you can't), but rather that you can't kill them enough before they run away and shoot your from afar.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Havocs with Autos seems to be your best bet. Dont go with the Dread though, a dedicated dread that shoots a Lascannon and ML is good for taking out heavy tanks fast, but if it frenzies it will blow the crap out of your own PMs, and unlike your DE and Guard foes, he will do it quite efficiently. I have one such Dread for my own PMs, but I only converted him because he was already too molten to use in my normal SM army. Too much of a liability.

EDIT: Just remembered that Termies can take Autocannons. Maybe try some MSU Nurgle Termies with Reaper Autos. TL means that both shots will hit their mark, and it will shred Raiders. Plus, it's not like your afraid of people trying to tarpit you.

**Ailaros**

I suppose my only problem is that only one member of the termie squad can have an autocannon. Taking 3 groups of 6 instead of 2 groups of 8 is an interesting idea, though.

As for the other serious contender, here, namely bikes, I've had a second go at it...

7 plague marines, fist, 2x melta, rhino
-256

7 plague marines, fist, 2x melta, rhino
-256

Sorcerer, gifts, bike
- 160

Sorcerer, gifts, bike
- 160

7 bikers, 1x melta, fist, MoN
-346

7 bikers, 1x melta, fist, MoN
-346

Of course, this brings 30 models to a 1500 point game, which, given that I bring over FOUR TIMES that in guardsmen, sounds insane to me. I'll have to do the math on it, though...

**MechaEmperor7000**

Do you need two Sorcs in a 1500 point game? 2 characters seems a bit excessive to me, but that's just my playstyle.

Also, I went into my box and dug out some more models for conversion into Nurgle units because of you

I'm going down the Terminator route since I dont own any suitable bikers for conversion.

**logg_frogg**

Ailaros wrote:Firstly, one of the things to note is that I'm not looking for that one cookie cutter DP+oblits list that everyone claims is the only one chaos can be competitive with. I'm WAY too avant-guarde for that.

What I'm looking for is mathematically sound, not popular. In fact, mathematically sound and UNpopular would be preferable. Chaos actually has a good codex, and I'd care to prove it.

I'm a little confused about the comment regarding wargear being all over the map, though.

The lists you posted told me right away that you were looking for soemthing outside of the cookie cutter norm! And in the Chaos world you are in luck because the large majority of the codex is viable if fielded properly.

The first step to a mathematically sound army is fielding proepr size units depending on what they are.

ie plague marines 7-8, bezerkers 9-10, reg marines 10, termies 3-6, raptors 5-10, lesser demons 13-17 ect ect (could go on all day with the math lol)

Then comes matching your wargear to what you are planning on doing. I find the more you try and *cover all the bases* with a chaos army the more it falls apart.
Pick a role and suit your wargear to match.

All of the ideas you posted are viable, but the main thing you need to do for competetive play is solidify your troops before branching out to EL, FA and HS

@ 1500pts you should have 3-4 troop sound troop choices. As I stated before *sound* is relative to which troop type and what war gear they are loaded out with.

Hope that clarify's what I was trying to say and helps you out some. The most helpful thing I did on here was read the CSM tactica, all of it.

Different people have diff ideas, and I don;t know about you but I like new ideas good or bad

*edit*

I just about forgot! The other thing I meant to mention was about the Sorcs!

When running sorcs or lords it is suuuuuper important to attach them to a squad. If left out by themselves, even with a MON or a bike to make them tougher neither will stop them from being 1 shotted by a meltagun or a lascannon. A sacraficial troop on the other hand will

**Darkest Hour**

i agree with you ailros i really like option C. it would be the funnest to play. the sorcererwith gift would be great, spawns running all over the place.