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So I was laying in bed trying to get to sleep but my mind wouldnt stop runinng on about what and how I want to do some conversions for a new army. This also got me to thinking about the mistakes I made playing on saturday. With all this churning around in my head an idea came to me and I figured since I wasnt falling asleep anyway I might as well come tell all of you about it.

So one of the things I did wrong in my last game was not moving one of my rhinos when I should have. I was trying to shoot with the plasma guns in the squad and wanted the range, when I should have gone full speed so I could try to assault the next turn. Well this got me to thinking about the vehical moving and shooting rules. I understand the balence GW is trying to make with them but this simple rule I think would add greatly to the game wile still balencing all factors.

Hopefully to make this clear I have italacized and turned red the actual new rules. (sorry if my wall-o-text was confusing)

Run and Gun Universal Vehical Rule

All vehicals may shoot no mater what speed they move at. Each increase in the speed factor and extra weapon shot after the first, subtracts 1 from the to hit dice role.
IE, A rhino moves at combat speed and fires its stormbolter, that shot is -1 to hit. A Predator moves at cruising speed and fires its autocannon and one heavy bolter, all those shots are at -3. -2 for the increased speed factors and -1 for the extra weapon fired. So that Predator now basicly being BS 1, needs 6s to hit anything. You can never auto miss though. So if our Predator there also fired its other heavy bolter it would be at -4 to hit, but you can still hit on a roll of 6.

This rule also applies to any unit being transported by a vehicle, though without the added -1 for extra weapons, since each weapon is shot by an individual model.
So a Chimera moves at combat speed and 3 Vets inside shoot their melta guns, each shot will be at -1 to hit. On the other hand our 3 Vets in their Chimera could move 12" and still shoot, but now they will be at -2 to hit, effectively making them BS2 and needing 5s to hit.

All standered weapon rules also apply.
Ordenance/Ordenance barrage weapons would still have their special rules.
Rapid fire weapons could still only shoot 12" since they would count as moving(if the vehical moves){just trying to be clear}.

There is one more option to this new rule,
Fast vehicles ignore the first negative step up this ladder.
So a Fast Razorback will not incure the -1 penelty until it hits cruising speed, but now it can move flat out and fire a weapon, admitidly at -2 but still, it would get to shoot. A Baal Predator that moves flat out and fires all its weapons would be at -4 to hit.
Template weapons suffer the penalty on the to wound role.

Well thats what I got. Let me know what you think.


edit for clarity

A good idea i like it but i did get a little at first
its a good idea because in real life vehcles do move fast and still fire all their guns-when a tanks assaulting it usualy can fire its main gun and all its machine guns(usualy at different targets to)

Well this is keeping with all the other basic rules, so it cant fire at more than one target unless it has a special rule to do so, IE; PotMS.

I vote you change the name to "Drive By" and have the vehicle take a dangerous terrain test. (On a one they hit a parked car)

I would perfer more usefull feedback Ceruleus.

Sounds pretty good and totally within reason.

it does sound like a fair idea. lets say if by some chance you got to -5 then on a 6 you would hit and on a 1-2 you would not be able to hoot that weapon next turn. And on the highly unlikely circumstance of getting to -6 on a 6 you would hit and on a 1-2 you would not be able to fire any weapons that turn. If you get to -7 in the most unlikely scenario you could not fire that turn? Just an idea. As when you speed up he starts jolting around?

hope you find this useful brother. but it is a rule i could love.

Detonator, while that is a good idea. I think the actual gameplay mechanics of it may bog down the game. Especialy if you are running say a IG Mech list with 8-9 tanks, you and your opponent will be having to keep track of all these extra weapon stuns and what not. Even worse if the game is IG Mech vs BA Razorspam. hahaha
How I envision it this is a limited use tactic for most players. Because of the sever drawbacks for racing past shooting everything your chances to hit are minimal at best. I see it more often uses when you absolutly have to gun down that last remaining guy for the KP or pop that tank to clear an objective. I dont see many people shooting everything, just the most useful/effective gun they have. Why add the H-Stubber shots (incuring the added penalty) when it wont hurt your target? See what I am going for ?
re-reading this I think I am being clear.

i dont particularly like it since it makes my nonblast guard tanks less usefull imo, but how would it affect the LRBT's lumbering behemoth?

Humm..Well since all special weapons rules aply, Lumbering behemoth alows you to fire one extra weapon along with the BC right. (Thats off the top of my head, thats the correct rule right?) So you would not incure a penalty until you fired your third weapon.

I see what you mean with your chimeras though. I admit I was thinking more about rhinos when I wrote this. What do you think about not incuring any penaltys until you move into the cruising speed catagory? Yeah I think that might be better. Thanks
So now the rule is this

Run&Gun
Any Vehical may fire all of its weapons at any moving speed.
Incuring a penalty to hit with each weapon fired after the first and an additionl penalty when moving at cruising and flat out speeds. No matter what penalty is incured, you will still always hit on a 6. There is no auto miss. Transported units may also fire, but will suffer from the additional speed penaltys All basic weapon and special weapon rules will still apply. Rapid firing weapons that move can still only shoot 12". Template weapons incure these penaltys on the to wound roll. Blast, Ordinance, and Ordinance Barrage weapons add an extra die to the scatter dice per penalty incured and take the two highest die rolls.(So a Battle cannon shot from a vehicle moving at cruising speed would add 2 die to the scatter roll, rolling 4 d6 plus the scatter dice in total.) All other normal rules for Blast, Ord and Ord barrage weapons still apply. Lumbering Beheamoth alows you to move and fire the Ordinance and an additionl weapon at no penalty, You will not incure a penalty until you fire your third weapon. This penalty will then effect all weapons fired.

Combat Speed: Move and fire 1 weapon as normal. You may fire any or all additional weapons at a -1 per weapon after the first, penalty to hit, this penalty includes the first weapon fired. Transported models do not incure any penalty other than their stated special/standared rules. Defensive weapons may fire as normal incuring no penalty.

Cruising Speed: Move and fire one weapon at -2 to hit. Each additional weapon fire adds -1 to all to hit rolls, including the first weapon. Transported models will fire at a -2 penalty. Defensive weapons may fire, but now count towards the mutliple weapon firing penalty.

Flat Out Speed: Move and fire 1 weapon at a -3 to hit penalty. Each additional weapon fired adds -1 to this penalty, including the first weapon. Transported units will fire at a -3 penalty. Defensive weapons may fire, but now count towards the mutliple weapon firing penalty.


So lets Take out Lucky Chimera and a Unit of Vets.
Chimera moves 6: and fires it ML and the Vets inside shoot their Plasma guns. The Chimera incures no penaltys and the Plasma shots only suffer the moving pentaly standared for a rapid fire weapon.
Now we move 6" and shoot the ML and HB on the Chimera, both weapons shots will incure a -1 penalty. Transported units will fire as normal.
This time we gun it up to cruising speed.
The Chimera moves 12" and fires its HB, these shots will be at -2 to hit. Transported units will also be at -2 to hit alongside any standard penaltys for moving and firing.
The Chimera moves 12" and fires its ML and HB its penalty to hit will now be -3. -2 for moving at cruising speed and an additional -1 for firing an extra weapon.

Using a StormRaven moving at flat out, it may fire a single weapon at a -3 to hit penalty. PotMS may still fire at an additional target, though it will incure a additional -1 penalty to all weapons fired, for firing an extra weapon, not for firing a weapon and PotMS (So the SR shoots its MM and the PotMS shoots the assault cannons at a seprate target the penalty is -4 to all shots not -5). If a Unit being transported may fire from the vehical moving flat out(IE: has fire points) they will shoot at a -3 penalty to hit.

There we go.. I think this might be even better. I also added rules for Blast and Ord weapons.

Edit for spelling and clarity

Lumbering behemoth allows you to "fire the turret weapon in addition to all other weapons that may be fired, even if it is ordinance" so i think with your rules it should read: " fire the turret weapon without penalty" since that would effectively give it an advantage, but your proposed rules actually nerf the LRBT because it makes all other tanks better (especially orks who dont lose too much if they get to shoot everything, it would bottom out at BS1 and orks are only bs2 to start with)

Are you saying that all vehicles should be able to move flat out, or just the ones that used to be able to before? If so, then I don't agree, I think that the slower tanks should be able to go to Cruising Speed maximum, while skimmers and the like can go Flat Out if they want to. Also, I assume it wouldn't apply to Walkers?

I do think this is an interesting rule, but it will definitely slow down the game, especially with all the note-taking to remember which tanks are at BS -2 each turn...

jordanis wrote:Lumbering behemoth allows you to "fire the turret weapon in addition to all other weapons that may be fired, even if it is ordinance" so i think with your rules it should read: " fire the turret weapon without penalty" since that would effectively give it an advantage, but your proposed rules actually nerf the LRBT because it makes all other tanks better (especially orks who dont lose too much if they get to shoot everything, it would bottom out at BS1 and orks are only bs2 to start with)

Ahh okay so I did have that wrong.. Humm..
Well I am not trying to give any one tank an advantage over all the others. I was just trying to add some speed to all armys. Let me think about the "LB" rule and see if I can work something out. Thanks for leting me know what the real rule is.

@Andilus: No I am not saying all vehicals can move flat out. I was just making rules for All vehicals. All othr standard vehicals rules would apply. So if your tank cant "Flat out" now, it cant "Flat out" with these new rules.
Also I dont think it will slow down games that much. Especialy once you get used to using it. YOu will know you went cruising speed, so you know you have to subtract 2 from your shooting roll (or more if you fire more weapons).

"UPDATED"


Run&Gun
Any Vehical may fire all of its weapons at any moving speed.
Incuring a penalty to hit with each weapon fired after the first and an additionl penalty when moving at cruising and flat out speeds. No matter what penalty is incured, you will still always hit on a 6. There is no auto miss. Transported units may also fire, but will suffer from the additional speed penaltys All basic weapon and special weapon rules will still apply. Rapid firing weapons that move can still only shoot 12". Template weapons incure these penaltys on the to wound roll. Blast, Ordinance, and Ordinance Barrage weapons add an extra die to the scatter dice per penalty incured and take the two highest die rolls.(So a Battle cannon shot from a vehicle moving at cruising speed would add 2 die to the scatter roll, rolling 4 d6 plus the scatter dice in total.) All other normal rules for Blast, Ord and Ord barrage weapons still apply.

Lumbering Beheamoth. Any unit with the LB rules may fire its turret/main weapon with no penalty in comabt speed. Other weapons fired from a unit with the LB rules will incure the standared penaltys.



Combat Speed: Move and fire 1 weapon as normal. You may fire any or all additional weapons at a -1 per weapon after the first, penalty to hit, this penalty includes the first weapon fired. Transported models do not incure any penalty other than their stated special/standared rules. Defensive weapons may fire as normal incuring no penalty.

Cruising Speed: Move and fire one weapon at -2 to hit. Each additional weapon fire adds -1 to all to hit rolls, including the first weapon. Transported models will fire at a -2 penalty. Defensive weapons may fire, but now count towards the mutliple weapon firing penalty.

Flat Out Speed: Move and fire 1 weapon at a -3 to hit penalty. Each additional weapon fired adds -1 to this penalty, including the first weapon. Transported units will fire at a -3 penalty. Defensive weapons may fire, but now count towards the mutliple weapon firing penalty.


So lets Take out Lucky Chimera and a Unit of Vets.
Chimera moves 6: and fires it ML and the Vets inside shoot their Plasma guns. The Chimera incures no penaltys and the Plasma shots only suffer the moving pentaly standared for a rapid fire weapon.
Now we move 6" and shoot the ML and HB on the Chimera, both weapons shots will incure a -1 penalty. Transported units will fire as normal.
This time we gun it up to cruising speed.
The Chimera moves 12" and fires its HB, these shots will be at -2 to hit. Transported units will also be at -2 to hit alongside any standard penaltys for moving and firing.
The Chimera moves 12" and fires its ML and HB its penalty to hit will now be -3. -2 for moving at cruising speed and an additional -1 for firing an extra weapon.

Using a StormRaven moving at flat out, it may fire a single weapon at a -3 to hit penalty. PotMS may still fire at an additional target, though it will incure a additional -1 penalty to all weapons fired, for firing an extra weapon, not for firing a weapon and PotMS (So the SR shoots its MM and the PotMS shoots the assault cannons at a seprate target the penalty is -4 to all shots not -5). If a Unit being transported may fire from the vehical moving flat out(IE: has fire points) they will shoot at a -3 penalty to hit.

well in your example, you say -3 for moving 12 and firing both weapons, but chimeras are only bs 3 so would that mean they would be bs0? which means they cant shoot? or does it bottom out a vehicle at bs1? if so, this overpowers ork vehicles allowing them to only lose 1 bs at all times


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also to be clear: are there penalties incrued if no movement is made? if so, it would break the game imo

@ jordanis: No there is no auto miss. So you can still hit with a 6.

There is no penalty for standing still. These penaltys are only incured when you move and/or fire more than 1 weapon.

So your chimera that couldnt shoot at all if it moved cruising speed can now get a shot off. I think this is a decent trade off. for the added ability.