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Rules for each model are free on that character's page; there should be a link like "item description" or something right under the cost. It's the rules for that character. So all rules are currently free.

Slight change - I'm possibly looking at getting a small crew for the Batman game. I really like the Ivy and plants box, and saw that Swamp Thing is her sidekick. Outside of those, what would I add to make a 'thematic' crew? I'm not super big on DC, I really just know the major players. Or is DC stuff less about thematic crews and just villains working together?

It's as thematic as you want it to be. Batman has been around since 1939, every combination of villains has probably teamed up at some point in some form or another.

Generally speaking, the crew building rules are pretty thematic anyway. have a look at the Hero Builder for ideas on what you can field with whom.

Just like most games, you might sometimes compromise on theme if you're wanting to play in competitive tournaments. - For example, I have a League of Assassins list made up entirely of ninjas. Competitive League Lists tend to use League aligned mercenaries. But, not being a competitive player, I want goddamned ninjas, goddammit.


If you're going for a pretty straightforward Poison Ivy list with Swamp Thing list without loads of random purchases to get 1 extra model, you're probably good with getting "Blackgate Box 1."

That would give you a 350 point list (the standard game size) of:

Poison Ivy
Her 3 plants
Swamp Thing
Prisoner 01
Prisoner 02
Turk

Which would work out fine if you just want a small crew with not many purchases. - There's plenty of ways to improve on that competitively though (EG, generally speaking you'd want Modified Pheromones in a competitive list, but that's too many points)

Amount of purchases doesn't bother me. I'll have a look at hero builder to see what I can do.

Is there a general amount of models you want to go for for ease of play?

Is there any benefit to taking a sidekick? Looking at the Free Agents available, there's more there I'd want to give a go to than Swamp Thing.

Generally speaking you struggle if you have less than 6 models just because of board coverage and objectives.

If you're not too worried about amount of purchases, I'd recommend getting "Blackgate Prisoners Set II" as well.

The typical game is 350 reputation, $1500 funding. And I don't know if you know this already but the games rules are effectively available in wiki format at Crits Kills People.

Generally most lists I make up have 8-9 models. That drops down to 5 or 6 if I have expensive models in my list (EG my Green Arrow / Flash / Diggle list)

It's not unusual for certain lists (Joker and Penguin) to have 11 or 12 models as a swarm list.

Looking at the Plant rule, basically, they're stationary henchmen with a 10cm range that can contest objectives, and come out when you decide on a Plant marker. But once placed, they can't be re-placed on another marker? So essentially they're little turrets?

That seems a bit limiting.

I put that list in Hero Builder and it comes to 331rep? Is this where the second Black Gate box helps?

Yeah, the plants are pretty limited, the benefit is they're cheap and you can take each one up to 3 times, so if you can scratch-build some more which is (easy, they're just plants with teeth- I've seen some Tyranid bits used to good effect there) you can bulk out your list a bit.

The difference between Free Agents and sidekicks is mostly that FAs give up more VP when they are taken out. One way you could take an Ivy list with some FAs is to take Harley Quinn and/or Catwoman for a 'Gotham Sirens' list, that's a team that comes up quite a lot. You'd probably want to back that with a couple of plants and some cheap Blackgate henchmen, that way you've got cheap objective sitters while Harley and Catwoman go for objectives more aggressively, since they're very fast.

One think to keep in mind is that you can access all the cards freely from the KM website, so for characters like Ivy with multiple versions, you should feel free to just print off the card for whichever version you want to use. The Arkham City one is only available direct as a model these days, but you can get the card and use the comic one with those rules if you want.

Yeah, I think I used the wrong Ivy when I made the list... Or got a guy mixed up between the two sets.

In the Flash/Arrow book there is a strategy that lets you move a plant from one marker to another once per game. - That's pretty handy.

And yeah, you can get the cards from clicking on the "Product Data Sheet" link on the knightmodels.com website.

An example of the Poison Ivy list I used recently is:

Arkham City Poison Ivy (who is now direct only)
3x Plants
Deadshot (Classic - with the sniper rifle)
Killer Frost
Turk
Prisoner 02

And, to be honest, it went ok, Killer Frost is pretty neat (Keep an eye out for the 'adaptable' special rule, it's pretty awesome). The main disadvantage I found was that it wasn't too punchy, but possibly going for the new Suicide Squad Deadshot instead would work, as his 'bullet time' special rule should help out more when enemies get a bit closer.

Funnily enough, before I looked at Swamp Thing, I was looking at Catwoman, Ravager, Copperhead and Killer Frost, to get a bunch of the female villains together. I think that seemed a bit more flexible. Not sure how I'll go initially, but I'm leaning away from Swamp Thing right now to get him later. I'd already thought of ways to get more plants. It's not like venus fly trap style plants are uncommon in this hobby.

I read the Ivy tactica which was very enlightening - I seem to innately pick the 'tricky' crew in games. I have no idea how I do it every new game. They also mentioned in the Ivy unboxing for the new set with the plants, and it mentioned that the new Slave Plant rule had something that the old Plant rule didn't have, which I guess was the once per game relocating to a different plant token.

As a non-player, what is happening with these games?

There is now a DC Universe and Marvel Universe game spot on the website. Is the Spiderman game getting combined with the MU game and the same with Batman and the DC one?

Why are there two types to begin with?

There doesn't seem to be much info on the website, what is the companies strategy? Are they going to keep developing all four? How do releases for each system go? For the past two months it seems like they did suicide squad and Mr. Freeze now for Batman, but no other releases for other games. So if I was to buy in how long would I wait for possible new releases?

Ok, this is how it breaks down:

Batman Miniatures Game: Where it all began, and by far the most expansive range. It covered 'street-level' stuff in the DC universe, like battles between rival crime gangs or Batman helping the cops take down a The Joker's operations. Typically you'll have about 2-3 named and known characters per side, then a bunch of Henchmen that are basically the game's 'faceless minions' (though they are still very useful and vital to the game, they're just not capable of going mano a mano with Batman and friends). It's a very cerebral game, very much about planning and executing that plan well rather than mindless brawls (though those can and do occur, and are mighty fun)

Spider-man miniatures game: Best to forget this one exists, like KM have. They utterly botched the launch by making it only available from them, and have only ever released 2 barely functional factions for it. Technically it can be played against Batman crews as they share the same rules, but a so few people even play it that you might as well not worry.

Marvel Universe Miniatures Game: The other end of the scale to the Batman game, you won't find any henchmen here because it's all about the heroes and villains. Rather than Spiderman and some cops, you'll be playing a full blown Avengers team taking on The Brotherhood of Mutants or Doctor Doom or the Dark Avengers. This game is simple and fast, very interactive with scenery and models being thrown all over the place by all kinds of powers and great if you want your game to focus on the big hitters duking it out.

DC Universe Miniatures Game: Like the above Marvel Universe one, but for DC, same rules and completely compatible. So far this hasn't had any releases, the first is on pre-order (a Dawn of Justice Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman set, which is a pretty full team from the get-go) right now. Unlike when they spun Spider-man off from the Batman game, though, they're actually making this available to retailers, so my guess is it'll take off much better!


In terms of releases, last month with just the SS box was the exception rather than the rule, normally you'll get something more akin to this month with a couple of 4 model 'starters' (a hero/villain and 3 minions for Batman, 3-4 heroes for the Supers games), and then 3-4 blisters. This month there was nothing Marvel as they brought out the DC version, but other than that and the SS set, Marvel and Batman have all had at least one release per month since the Marvel one released back in the spring, so it's pretty consistent.

If you're looking to start, my advice is to forget about Spider-man completely as it was dead on arrival sadly, if you want Batman or Marvel Universe then jump right in, just pick one of the team starters which are available for pretty much every faction and go from there, and for the DC Universe game, either grab the Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman set now if you think that's a team you'll want to play, or hold off a bit as I imagine we'll get some new team sets pretty soon (not sure if they do December releases, but if not, then something will almost certainly land in January).


Sorry for going on a bit there, I hope it explains things. If you've got any more questions on starting the specific games, or KM stuff in general, let me know!

Para sums it up pretty well. A couple of the Spidey guys can be found online, like eBay, but not common. Marvel is TONS of fun, and they really got the feel of it down; you feel like you're playing with 90s comics over-the-top-ness.

I thought the Spiderman game as well as the Marvel game was a bit redundant. It's not like street level Marvel heroes don't duke it out with the bigger heroes in the comics. There's distinct power levels at play, but it happens. Like, Matt Murdock might 'just' be a ninja, but in the comics he's still throwing cars, just not as far. Just have the street level guys appropriately lower cost.

It's different in DC where you have guys like the Joker who really are just human gang bosses who run around with henchmen. When Superman drops down, they need to be rocking Kryptonite to to much other than get thrown into the sun, so it makes sense to separate those into their own game.

Thanks for the run down!

How does 35mm compare to 28mm? Could i buy universal city terrain that is meant for a game like Infinity or bolt action and get away with it? Or is the size completely different.

The Batman game seems like it has a more complex and dynamic ruleset than MU game. At first glance MU looks like the 1st gen X-wing one a very great, but a bit simplistic set that is easy to jump into. Is this a good assestment? Do you feel like MU lacks depth? Does Batman have it?

This next question is kind of abstract. A problem for me that I ran into with X-Wing is the universe felt a bit static. Like since the series had hit the end all the stories that were told about things were always told so I was playing the same battles over and over. (note this was before the new movie). Do the scenarios and releases make you feel like you have the same problem? Or is it a non issue? Like how many times can Captain America fight the same four guys on an enemy team before it gets stale? (might be a little different with batman game because of all the henchmen and factions)

35mm basically means that minis are going to be noticeably taller (so mixing 28mm and 35mm henchmen or whatever is going to look a bit odd), but for terrain it should be fine, doors and windows ect will all look roughly the right size and the general height/size of buildings for other games will work fine for this.

I think that assessment on the rules is pretty fair, Batman is definitely the more cerebral game as the core mechanic has you committing to actions at the start of the turn, and there are only a handful of models (outside the Joker faction, who can pretty much all do it) that get the ability to change their allocations mid-turn. Marvel is much more 'pick up and play', the rules are less about planning ahead and more about reacting, which has its own benefits as it means there's scope for a lot of 'reactive' powers which is fun and you don't need to think things over as much. I'd not say it's lacking depth, at least not enough to make playing it unfun, but in general, if you want something quick, fun, easy to learn and sometimes very over the top and dramatic, go Supers, if you want something that's more of a chess-like 'battle of wits', go Batman. Of the two, I personally prefer Batman as I like the less forgiving and more complex gameplay, but Marvel is still great fun and excellent if you're looking for a shorter, more fast-paced game that cuts right to the action.

As for that last bit, I'd say it's only an issue with Marvel at the moment simply due to the comparatively very young range (Batman has been around for about 3 years now and for most of that was KM's sole focus, Marvel is about 6 months old), in terms of Batman I've played dozens of times and it's never felt repetitive. With these larger-than-life characters and rules to reflect that, changing one or two models in a crew can drastically change up the way it plays, so for as little as a single clampack every month or so you can keep mixing things up significantly. For instance, a Bane crew with Deathstroke is going to play totally differently to one that spends those points on some more Mercenary henchmen, a Batman crew with cops in tow will be a totally different playstyle to one that teams him up with Robin and Batgirl.

So yeah, I'd say it's a minor problem with the Marvel game for the moment, though that's solved either by playing smaller games and thus rotating characters so you're not always playing the same lineups, or by coming up with new scenarios and mission objectives, and I'm sure in another 6 months of growth it'll have all but gone, once we have enough releases to truly start varying full teams.

Cool thanks for the info! I think the biggest hurtle is the terrain bit. Maybe one of these games will be something to invest in later. I think I would like the batman game better, but a little more of a fan of Marvel stuff. (though I don't know if it is enough to make a difference.)

Unrelated, it looks like that batman forum was horribly vandalized. There are spam posts all of it.

Yeah, the Batman forums are a mess, probably best avoided to be honest. And the Marvel one was hacked and shut down this week as well, so most of the discussion seems to be shifting to the various facebook groups.

As for the terrain, keep an eye on KM's releases, they just put out some fantastic hard card terrain in the Suicide Squad box that they'd have to be mad not to release, so I imagine that'll be out sooner rather than later. Otherwise, check out TTcombat, they've got some very reasonably priced MDF building kits in various styles, including a lot that are basically meant to be not-Gotham.

As far as available not-Gotham terrain, seems like there is little focus on interiors. Is this a function of the rules?

Yeah, in general buildings aren't accessible, it's much more about climbing/grappling up the outsides for vantage points and moving between buildings and rooftops rather than entering the building for any reason.

I guess there's nothing to stop you building accessible terrain, the rules would accommodate going inside rooms, or setting up a mission where one side has to fight their way up the inside of a building floor by floor ect, but in general it's all outside and it's the exteriors that matter.

I think if that's something you wanted to represent in-game, the easiest thing to do would be to adapt the existing sewer travel system, removing the model when it enters and bringing it on the next turn from an applicable exit. So for example, you could enter a building on the ground floor, be removed from play for a turn and pop out on the rooftop in the next round. I'd be interesting, but a lot of the advantage certain characters have (typically those with grapple guns/batclaws) is that they can retreat to the relative safety of the rooftops if needed, which is offset by the fact objectives usually have to be placed at ground level. Opening up roofs to everyone could remove that element.

Just wanted to take this game for a spin so I bought the Joker and Penguin 4-figure boxes and some lamp posts and manhole covers. Just trying to think about what to use for terrain, not sure if I want to go straight to 4ground tenements before getting a demo game in.

If you're just testing it out, then all you really need is 3-5 buildings more than about 15cm tall, and a bunch of scatter terrain like crates and barrels, cargo containers or even appropriately sized toy cars and trucks. You play on a 3x3 board so you shouldn't need a ton of stuff.

PS, to answer your question of repetitiveness, I haven't found Marvel repetitive at all, and while it doesn't sound as in depth as batman, it's still tons of fun. The models seem to be the same size as reaper minis (and heroclix!!). I had a HC Maverick next to KM deathstroke, and they were same height. Could be a cheap henchman option. Just depends if you have a care for quality of the minis.

As far as terrain, i bought a pack of hot wheels city vehicles for cars, including a small truck, taxi, van, hipster car and ambulance. $8 gets me all the throwable vehicles I'd need. Paint strip em and repaint em, or leave as is. Buildings I'm not as in-the-know, so I'll leave it to the experts to go over em.

I would say they're heads and shoulders above your typical heroclix mini. - They're closer to 25mm as opposed to 35mm-38mm

Not that heroclix has any consistent scale really.

Really? Huh. Well, Maverick at least fits the scale!

I also bought the heroclix minis for avengers. Based on most current movie heroclix.

I absolutely hate their old costumes. Just not a fan of the comic book outfits. (thors helmet, really?)

A wash, a bit of repaint and the clix look like real figs on scenic bases. They are however a little small. Not huge, but enough to notice side by side.

The bonus of Marvel/DC is while you can do city fight, you can do any where fight. alien planet, jungles, where ever. This is a huge cost savings vs batman which really need the city to play.

For anyone looking to get into DC, Knight have just released stat cards for the majority of suitable characters in the Batman Miniatures Game range, so there's now plenty of variety from the word go, you can really just pick your favourites and put a team together if you don't fancy waiting for a starter set.

http://knightmodels-store.com/WebRoot/Store19/Shops/afaa2a23-c31d-4ae6-b1cd-12757513fd3b/582F/1105/5CA2/5ADF/41AB/0A48/3548/E220/MANUAL_DC_UNIVERSE_FINAL_COMPLETE.pdf

They're all in the final third of the PDF, I posted up a list of included characters in the news and rumours thread. I'm dead excited to get playing this now!

This does help boos marvel up brining more people to the game system. The release of 6 new missions also helps as that gives a total of 9 now.

I haven't gone through the rulebook, but I'm curious if things changed any.

Our groups not fully sold on MUMG/DCUMG. Some mechanics seem like missed opportunities/overlooked rules that makes us hesitant to really invest much into it.

will have to read through this new book and give it one more try

The throwing rules have been completely overhauled and the movement rules have been updated slightly.

I'm not sure what else has changed, it's mostly been in the stat card updates. Cap and Colossus have been nerfed quite heavily, while most of the other characters have had either their damage boosted or their abilities significantly bumped up.

 Compel wrote:
The throwing rules have been completely overhauled and the movement rules have been updated slightly.

I'm not sure what else has changed, it's mostly been in the stat card updates. Cap and Colossus have been nerfed quite heavily, while most of the other characters have had either their damage boosted or their abilities significantly bumped up.

Am I missing the updated cards? I checked the Cap card I printed day one compared to the Cap card on their website under the starter and don't see a difference. Got a link to new marvel cards?

I did reread the throw rules in the DC book. I still don't agree with needing to hit a enemy for a grab that is knocked out. -4 isn't enough nor does it make sense I need to roll to grab someone knocked out.

For example if I did it vs Cap, his Def is 17, so -4 is still a 13. Lets say the average attack is 7. Needing to roll a 7 on 2d8 is pretty crap. Sure you can overload it, but then your spending 4 power for a throw. Which is usually half your power. Not even taking into the account you need to more likely then not move into contact wit the KO character. All for a STR -1 damage? I guess its a ok play at 4 STR, and not bad to use at 5 STR, but 3 or less seems like a utter waste of power.

That's my biggest gripe with the game.

You must be I guess, this is the Avengers set now

http://knightmodels-store.com/WebRoot/Store19/Shops/afaa2a23-c31d-4ae6-b1cd-12757513fd3b/56BC/5573/780A/1B71/C97D/0A48/3548/C365/AVENGERS.jpg" border="0" />

now the addition of Heroic Action to peeps and Caps updated shield block