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Okay. So I finally figured out where rules conflicts go...

Now, as argued in DashofPepers DE guide, he claims you are allowed to pivot to gain an extra 2" of movement in the movement phase. Now, my reasoning for finding this untrue? And correct me if you find A RULE that makes my statement incorrect.

You may not.

Here is how you should move based on the rules given in the rulebook

here's the exercise:
1. place a rhino such that it's side armor is facing you.
2. measure out 6" from the side of the vehicle and set the ruler down on the table, so the measurement doesn't change.
3. pivot the vehicle around the center so that it is facing in the direction the ruler is measuring.
3a. notice that the distance it appears to be moving has been reduced by about an inch.

The argument is currently revolving around whether you measure the allowed move distance before you pivot, or after.

If it is done the other way around, pivot, measure, move, then the vehicle will end up an extra inch or two closer towards the opponent, and may be the difference between successfully assaulting or failing.

Some are insisting that the clause in the core rulebook that tells us that a vehicle can pivot without counting as having moved means that's a "free pivot" and thus that extra inch or two doesn't count towards the vehicle's movement.

Others insist that the since you must measure your move first, then execute the move, pivoting before measuring is cheating.


overall there are a couple problems with arguing this out:
a. the BRB doesn't explicitly state when you measure your movement in relation to when you actually begin moving models.
b. taking the position of allowing a pivot before the model moves then basically allows the same shenanigans to be played with oval base models like trygons, mawlocs, Dreadknights and the like, as there's no difference in how the rules work.


Now you can say, "I can pivot and then measure" but this is untrue for 2 reasons.

1)BRB pg 56: "Pivoting on the spot alone not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilized vehicles may not even pivot)."

Check to make sure i didn't add these words

2) To argue that you CAN, after applying this, would suggest that a vehicle can in fact move before they measure the distance it moves.

The rulebooks says that pivoting does not take up any distance that a vehicle is allowed to travel, but it also says that a vehicle may not move past its maximum distance.

I understand there have been threads on this before, and that it is ultimately decided that it is allowed. Will someone please direct me to a rule (Page number preferred) where it even remotely suggests that you may? I mean... other than people trying to gain an edge from reading the rules in a way and presenting them as they wish to make it seem like they can do something they can not?

comments?

... Its very simple you pivot round the centre not the edge. If your vehicle's width is larger then its length (or vice-versa) then when you pivot you can change the distance that things might be. (ie a Razor back will gain 2-3" on its turret by turn 180).

Now if you rotate round a corner then you are not just pivoting you are also moving. You have gained added distance, which is hard to measure but definitely happening; so you are no longer stationary)

So pivot on the spot then measure then pivot again. Measuring from the same place to the same place without rotating.

I know how to pivot. But, that does not mean you can pivot past your maximum distance. Did you read it... or just wanted to post, assuming i was asking how?


You move to the 12" mark that you measured BEFORE moving, which includes pivoting if you choose to move. Hence the underlined section of the quote of the rulebook. Now, if you finish the move, may you pivot after you are done moving? No, you may not. Therefore, you do not, nor can you not, get any extra distance from pivoting.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:I know how to pivot. But, that does not mean you can pivot past your maximum distance. Did you read it... or just wanted to post, assuming i was asking how?

You can't pivot past your maximum movement. You only measure when moving.

You measure from point a to point a and that's how far you've moved, afterwards you can pivot. If you start the game side on you do gain 2" as you rotate but that's it. I restated what happens to make sure you understood that there's nothing wrong with this.

You can pivot then move provided the pivot is purely stationary and the pivot point is the center of the vehicle.

Scenario: You are the commander of a Leman Russ and want to go a direction other than forward, eg 9 o'clock. With a simple lever action, you slap the left tread back and right tread forward, pivot, then snap the left tread forward. Easy enough.

The rules for pivoting counting for movement pertains to firing and the number of weapons. The rules state that it doesn't count as movement or distance, so it wouldn't take up the movement phase anyway. I could have my LR doing donuts for a while before driving and still go cruising speed provided I only pivoted on the spot, a tactic I use when then are piloted by Bo and Luke Duke.

-cgmckenzie

Just measure from the center of the vehicle. If you start with a vehicle sideways, then measure from the center and place the center 6" from where it started and then pivot, then how can anyone say that it moved more than 6". The center is still only 6" away from where it started.

Rhinos are boxes, Raiders are rectangles.

If you pick the center of the raider as the point that you move, then pivot it on the spot and move it 12", the vehicle has only moved 12" but the nose of the raider is farther forward than it started. There is nothing illegal in that movement.

Sorry to answer your question with a question.... bad manors I know. If pivoting does not count as moving (pg 57 AOBR book) would you let your opponent pivot a vehicle in the shooting or assaulting phase????

No. It does not count as movement but you only have permission to pivot during the movement phase.

This is more of an issue 'turn1' where you have an arbitrary line you must stay behind. Mid-game this is usually less of an issue as you don't gain much.

Turn 1, it is legal and very easy to pull off and there are multiple diagrams confirming it.

And we don't measure from the center, we measure from the edge, which is why this works! ;D

If you measure from the edge then you have moved your vehicle too far.

That's why it is legal, you can pivot on the vehicles center and then move, if you pivoted measure from the vehicles edge then you lose movement doing it.

From what I see reading the rules it does seem pivoting to gain that extra distance is legal as pivoting does not count as moving so could be done seperatly from moving the vehicle. But for sportsmanship I would prob ask my opponent what he thought of doing this during the game....

It leaves a bad taste in the mouth of folks who have not encountered it (or at least thought of it), but it is legal.

Why would you give someone bad sportsmanship scores for doing something that is completely allowed within the rules?

I would not give someone bad sportsmanship scores, I insinuated that if someone did not like it I would agreed to look for an alternitive that suited both parties.

kirsanth wrote:It leaves a bad taste in the mouth of folks who have not encountered it (or at least thought of it), but it is legal.

I'm one of these guys. Nobody's ever really done it in a way that feels abusive in our FLGS, though. It sounds like BS to me, but I've never really looked into the rule. Is it all on pg 57, or are there other references I should know?

I peronally just measure from the leading edge when I start to the leading edge when I finish, so all of the pivoting and turning is accounted for during the move. Maybe I've been missing out on some tricks, but it seems like the straightforward way to do it.

ElCheezus wrote:

kirsanth wrote:It leaves a bad taste in the mouth of folks who have not encountered it (or at least thought of it), but it is legal.

It sounds like BS to me, but I've never really looked into the rule. Is it all on pg 57, or are there other references I should know?

You are allowed to measure distance moved from the center point of a vehicle.

If you deploy a rectangular vehicle so that its long edge is against the deployment zone edge, on its first move it can easily claim a bonus 2" move by pivoting its frontage across that line (which will not move its center point).

Best image really is a battle wagon, as it with a deff-rolla is very much longer than it is wide.

ElCheezus wrote:I'm one of these guys.

I was too, but having read up on it. . .it is just one of those things.
Its somewhat annoying to me as a Tyranid player, but that list can get too long to worry about, really.

ElCheezus wrote:I peronally just measure from the leading edge when I start to the leading edge when I finish, so all of the pivoting and turning is accounted for during the move. Maybe I've been missing out on some tricks, but it seems like the straightforward way to do it.

Not a bad way to do it. I kind of like it but if you go round a corner what then?

The way you should move is a straight line measuring from the same point on the tank to the same point on the tank. If you need to go round something you pivot on the spot and then continue.

In the case of things like Battlewagons then yes you will gain 3-4" by starting side on ....

But, and this is a big one, if you start side on you will expose both your side and even rear armour, some weapons may not be able to target anything and most of all its kind of obvious what you're planning to do.

I know the idea, I'm just looking for the references supporting it. I want to make sure I read all the applicable rules for when/if I do this, or it's used against me.

Are there any rules other than the paragraph on pg. 57 that explains why this is considered legal?

Tri wrote:But, and this is a big one, if you start side on you will expose both your side and even rear armour, some weapons may not be able to target anything and most of all its kind of obvious what you're planning to do.

Less of an issue with Landraiders, but definitely something to remember.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

ElCheezus wrote:Are there any rules other than the paragraph on pg. 57 that explains why this is considered legal?

Not really looking atm, but I do not think so.

All the pieces of this idea are explicitly allowed, but it never puts them all together, iirc.

kirsanth wrote:

Tri wrote:But, and this is a big one, if you start side on you will expose both your side and even rear armour, some weapons may not be able to target anything and most of all its kind of obvious what you're planning to do.

Less of an issue with Landraiders, but definately something to remember.

you say that but you immobilise that LR you're left with an AV14 box with only one TL-LasCannon pointing the right way. Watched it happen, unit of Terminators had to get out and walk ... in doing so they block the LC LOS. If it had been facing forward it could have still shot both LC and the AC.

I know exactly what people are THINKING you can do. I am not suggesting that you don't pivot from the center. Nor am i suggesting that you are moving more that you actually should be.

I know people want to deploy sideways and pivot to deploy farther. THAT is the problem.

Will anyone explain to me why it is so commonly accepted to ignore one of the most basic rules in the game?

Actually, more specific question. Who here moves there models and them measures the distance traveled? I can assure you that no one here will say "I do"

And please don't say "pivoting isn't moving" because you are ignoring key words in the rule that prevent this to prove you point.

BRB pg 56: "Pivoting on the spot alone not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilized vehicles may not even pivot)."

BRB pg 56: "Pivoting on the spot alone not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilized vehicles may not even pivot)."

ALONE and ONLY. These words suggest, and correct me if i am wrong, that if you do something else, it is not only or alone?

I'm going to make the same point I've made twice before now, which people see fit to ignore in order to continue this crap: the BRB states you pivot 'AS' you move, not before, not after, not when you bloody well feel like. You can feel free to pivot at any point once you put the tape measure down on the table and begin recording movement. If the vehicle (and any part of the vehicle, according to pg4) moves past the end of the bleeding tape measure, you have not followed RAW.

Your landraider can skip, dance, hop, twirl, and roll along to the end of its 12" of allocated movement. I don't care. Its abstract motion, the only, ONLY, physical presence it will have on the field is at the beginning and end of (segments of) movement.

See that segments bit up there? Just because you like to measure in infinitely small amounts does not give you the privilege of ignoring pg4 and the word 'as' in the pivoting rules. Each segment is treated like whole of movement if you choose to do so (like when coming around a corner or something).

From "Vehicles & Movement":
"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements)."

Since Raiders (and other skimmers) have a base, I measure 6-12" of movement from them. I gain no movement rotating on the base. The next turn, I measure from the base again and go another 6-12". At no point do I gain any movement for the Raider.

The "gained" movement is from the Open-Topped Transport rule, which allows you to disembark models up to 2" from the hull of the vehicle, which includes the prow of the Raider.

Foo wrote:From "Vehicles & Movement":
"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements)."

Since Raiders (and other skimmers) have a base, I measure 6-12" of movement from them. I gain no movement rotating on the base. The next turn, I measure from the base again and go another 6-12". At no point do I gain any movement for the Raider.

The "gained" movement is from the Open-Topped Transport rule, which allows you to disembark models up to 2" from the hull of the vehicle, which includes the prow of the Raider.

You disprove your argument within your own argument. The BRB states that since most vehicles do not have bases, NO vehicle will have its movement measured from a base. At all. In any way. "Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore blah blah blah)."

Entirely, 100% legal

Tip: search for this topic. been done to death. Legal since 1998

I think the biggest issue that comes up here is on things like raiders and Vendettas that have the guns mounted on the very nose of the vehicle. Personally I don't have a huge problem with it. If I planned my strategy around 2" then I was risking it all anyway

It also rolls back to the "What counts as hull?" argument. GW minced words when they said you measure LoS from the barrel of the weapon. So if the wing of a vendetta doesn't count as the hull then I can't shoot at it but the TL lascannon has free reign to pot shot at my tanks if the "Hull" is tucked behind a building.

:S tread carefully people, last thread on this subject (started by me) disolved into flame war pretty quickly.

More classic GW fail when writing rules in my opinion.

And from my understanding, it doesn't matter if you measure from the center or from the hull. Take the sideways-deployed Dark Eldar Raider example. I measure 12" from it's hull and move it directly to that location, without pivoting. Once landed, I pivot it perpindicular to it's original orientation to face directly at my opponent. I obviously gained movement by doing this since my Raider is a long rectangular shape. Now, let's say I measured from the 12" from the center of the Raider and then pivoted it after moving it. It doesn't matter. Ends up in the same place. The rules state that pivoting is always free while moving and it is always done about the center of the vehicle. As far as I am concerned, it is perfectly legal. Yes, I agree with some opposers that it dumb, it favors certain armies over others, and that it really just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Well, that is GW for you.

This is actually one of those 'grey areas' that actually has a built-in benefit/drawback combo. All the vehicles with all-around AV14 are pretty much square, so don't benefit much from it. A lot of the vehicles that do benefit from it have weaker side and rear armour than front, so though they might have an inch or two greater range, they are also opening themselves up to free shots in their side and rear armour if they don't get first turn.