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How many Space Marines there are in the Imperium?

500.000?
1.000.000?
1.250.000?

There are around 1000 chapters of loyalists and betrayers..
most loyalists number 1000 SM, some less, some more. Lets count them all as 1000 each. Now we need to find out how many CSM legions there are. And their losses.

Somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000.
The number likely fluctuates but i'd say it is between that.
This is just loyalist right?

I think so.

I'll post the most recent post on the matter from the Tau thread. iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's well over 500,000, although I would doubt it would be over 1,000,000. There's roughly a thousand chapters. Over a thousand battle brothers each. Over a million if there are NO casualties, which there are. So, on average there would probably be about 50ish casualties per chapter, giving about 975ish on average. Now, there are more chapters that are under strength than there are chapters who field more than a thousand by standard, so say about 950 on average. So, I put the ROUGH number of Space Marines in the whole Imperium at about 950,000.

And before we go off topic and all.... finial word to this is that you forgotten that every captain of the company can form a chapter of his own. We counted the several new founding chapters. That BT actually umber now more than 6000 ( even they have divided into chapters ). And we count vehicle crews, they are also Space Marines.

Now back to Tau fire cast...

Every captain can form a chapter of his own? Where the feth is that from? They can't just break off and form their own chapter with their company, doing that would have them considered renegade, unless it's actually sanctioned by The Imperium, and theres no examples of this in fluff. New chapters are exceedingly rare, with many being destroyed and being pushed to the brink. I also said there were more than 1000 per standard chapter, but there are no exact figures to draw that from, other than the "theres roughly 1000 chapters" and "theres max a 1000 per codex chapter". Did this estimation take into account the casualties of the chapters and the fact that there are many chapters with far fewer than 1000? Or was is a massive generalization with no sense of realism? Even them I don't understand where the other 300,000 comes from.

Are SMs crewing vehicles counted against the 1,000 man limit?

I would say so, along with the other specialized roles like Librarians, putting the actual number per Chapter at about 1035. What about honor guard? Are they counted as line marines? And theres the Scout Company, there's probably not 100 all the time in every chapter. Like the Salamanders, they have a lot less in theirs.

iproxtaco wrote:
Every captain can form a chapter of his own? Where the feth is that from? They can't just break off and form their own chapter with their company, doing that would have them considered renegade, unless it's actually sanctioned by The Imperium, and theres no examples of this in fluff. New chapters are exceedingly rare, with many being destroyed and being pushed to the brink. I also said there were more than 1000 per standard chapter, but there are no exact figures to draw that from, other than the "theres roughly 1000 chapters" and "theres max a 1000 per codex chapter". Did this estimation take into account the casualties of the chapters and the fact that there are many chapters with far fewer than 1000? Or was is a massive generalization with no sense of realism? Even them I don't understand where the other 300,000 comes from.

That's how new chapters are made. When founding chapter decide to make a successor ( they do that rarelly dough ). They choses their best captain and he and all marines under his command became new chapter. After that they recruit people from original chapter homeworld. This is explained din some SM book ( forgotten the name ). And before they found a new chapter, they must report that to higher authority ( Inquisition, High Lords ) so that they keep number of new marines.

One chapter have 1000 battle brothers. Where are vehicle crews? Honor Guard? Terminators? Librarians? It makes sense that chapter have more than 1000 marines for battle + support stuff.

Its about 1200 all in for a chapter isnt it?

So 1000x 1250, plus a few have loads more.

Oh and dont forget the GK.

On GW's own line of thinking: Space marines are organized in chapters a 1000 marines and if GW shows us that chapter there will be more than 1000 marines on that pic... ( codex SM 3rd ed ).

If you count the codex organization:

- company a 10 squads of 10 marines.
( captain, command squad, attached specialists like chaplains, librarians, techmarines, apothecaries and the dreads aren't part of this 10 x 10 structure , maybe the vehicle crews should be added too ).
- HQ with all the specialists ( said chaplains, librarians, techmarines, apothecaries, chapter master and honor guard, again vehicle pool crews ).

Sums up basically to 1000 + 5 organized sub-groups of 50 + x members.
Without casualties a codex adherent chapter would have about 1250 marines.

Around 1000 active chapters should contribute ~ 1.000.000 - 1.250.000 marines.

A nice bit of info was in the GK dex. When chapter 666 was revealed at second founding, the IoM had 400 chapters listed.
Thus the space marines began after the split into chapters with ~ 400.000 marines.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Every captain can form a chapter of his own? Where the feth is that from? They can't just break off and form their own chapter with their company, doing that would have them considered renegade, unless it's actually sanctioned by The Imperium, and theres no examples of this in fluff. New chapters are exceedingly rare, with many being destroyed and being pushed to the brink. I also said there were more than 1000 per standard chapter, but there are no exact figures to draw that from, other than the "theres roughly 1000 chapters" and "theres max a 1000 per codex chapter". Did this estimation take into account the casualties of the chapters and the fact that there are many chapters with far fewer than 1000? Or was is a massive generalization with no sense of realism? Even them I don't understand where the other 300,000 comes from.

That's how new chapters are made. When founding chapter decide to make a successor ( they do that rarelly dough ). They choses their best captain and he and all marines under his command became new chapter. After that they recruit people from original chapter homeworld. This is explained din some SM book ( forgotten the name ). And before they found a new chapter, they must report that to higher authority ( Inquisition, High Lords ) so that they keep number of new marines.

One chapter have 1000 battle brothers. Where are vehicle crews? Honor Guard? Terminators? Librarians? It makes sense that chapter have more than 1000 marines for battle + support stuff.

I'm sorry to tell you this but you are very wrong, read Index Astartes. Chapters are only formed at the will of the High Lords of Terra (and ergo the Emperor), chapter's may petition the High Lords but it is not up to them.

Everyone else has fluff sources to back this up, you have your idea with no fluff support, the Carde theory is only a fan theory (it works very well but is still only a theory). What is know is that new chapters are made by the Mechanicus once ordered.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Every captain can form a chapter of his own? Where the feth is that from? They can't just break off and form their own chapter with their company, doing that would have them considered renegade, unless it's actually sanctioned by The Imperium, and theres no examples of this in fluff. New chapters are exceedingly rare, with many being destroyed and being pushed to the brink. I also said there were more than 1000 per standard chapter, but there are no exact figures to draw that from, other than the "theres roughly 1000 chapters" and "theres max a 1000 per codex chapter". Did this estimation take into account the casualties of the chapters and the fact that there are many chapters with far fewer than 1000? Or was is a massive generalization with no sense of realism? Even them I don't understand where the other 300,000 comes from.

That's how new chapters are made. When founding chapter decide to make a successor ( they do that rarelly dough ). They choses their best captain and he and all marines under his command became new chapter. After that they recruit people from original chapter homeworld. This is explained din some SM book ( forgotten the name ). And before they found a new chapter, they must report that to higher authority ( Inquisition, High Lords ) so that they keep number of new marines.

One chapter have 1000 battle brothers. Where are vehicle crews? Honor Guard? Terminators? Librarians? It makes sense that chapter have more than 1000 marines for battle + support stuff.

That's not how chapters are formed. A captain doesn't just go off to form his own whenever he feels like it, and source chapters do not make the decision. Over about 55 years, a fresh set of 1000 progenoid glands are manufactured. Some veterans will then be selected to train new recruits, but an entire company is not taken out to form a new one.
But there's not an extra 300 in every chapter. There's maybe another 50, which would put the number at 1 million if you take into consideration the variation of numbers and the casualties. Still, where's the other 300,000 from?

A number so small as to be completely irrelevant.
Nah, I'm just trollling.
But I do think that.

TrollPie wrote:A number so small as to be completely irrelevant.
Nah, I'm just trollling.
But I do think that.

Trolling AND wrong?

Space marines are 1 tool in the arsenal of the imperial warmachine. And every cogwheel contributes and counts.

1hadhq wrote:

TrollPie wrote:A number so small as to be completely irrelevant.
Nah, I'm just trollling.
But I do think that.

Trolling AND wrong?

Space marines are 1 tool in the arsenal of the imperial warmachine. And every cogwheel contributes and counts.

Space Marines are on the verge of redundancy, though.

Is that so?

Or just the IoM's ability to switch gears if neccessary...

There is still the front-cover of the 5th ed rulebook. The symbols may hint on the duty of the organization represented.

BluntmanDC wrote:
I'm sorry to tell you this but you are very wrong, read Index Astartes. Chapters are only formed at the will of the High Lords of Terra (and ergo the Emperor), chapter's may petition the High Lords but it is not up to them.

That was I was saying. When chapter wants to made a successor they petition to High Lords. And if they approve then waht I have said happened - captain lead his men and found a new chapter of the Astartes. If not, then no matter.

What here does not go with that that you said?

mattyrm wrote:Its about 1200 all in for a chapter isnt it?

So 1000x 1250, plus a few have loads more.

Oh and dont forget the GK.

Is it stated somewhere that only infantry SMs count as SMs?

iproxtaco wrote:
That's not how chapters are formed. A captain doesn't just go off to form his own whenever he feels like it, and source chapters do not make the decision. Over about 55 years, a fresh set of 1000 progenoid glands are manufactured. Some veterans will then be selected to train new recruits, but an entire company is not taken out to form a new one.
But there's not an extra 300 in every chapter. There's maybe another 50, which would put the number at 1 million if you take into consideration the variation of numbers and the casualties. Still, where's the other 300,000 from?

It was explaned. Chapter send request to High Lords and then the captain may form the new chapter.
And the other ~300.000 are explained:

1hadhq wrote:On GW's own line of thinking: Space marines are organized in chapters a 1000 marines and if GW shows us that chapter there will be more than 1000 marines on that pic... ( codex SM 3rd ed ).

If you count the codex organization:

- company a 10 squads of 10 marines.
( captain, command squad, attached specialists like chaplains, librarians, techmarines, apothecaries and the dreads aren't part of this 10 x 10 structure , maybe the vehicle crews should be added too ).
- HQ with all the specialists ( said chaplains, librarians, techmarines, apothecaries, chapter master and honor guard, again vehicle pool crews ).

Sums up basically to 1000 + 5 organized sub-groups of 50 + x members.
Without casualties a codex adherent chapter would have about 1250 marines.

Around 1000 active chapters should contribute ~ 1.000.000 - 1.250.000 marines.

A nice bit of info was in the GK dex. When chapter 666 was revealed at second founding, the IoM had 400 chapters listed.
Thus the space marines began after the split into chapters with ~ 400.000 marines.

See?

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
That's not how chapters are formed. A captain doesn't just go off to form his own whenever he feels like it, and source chapters do not make the decision. Over about 55 years, a fresh set of 1000 progenoid glands are manufactured. Some veterans will then be selected to train new recruits, but an entire company is not taken out to form a new one.
But there's not an extra 300 in every chapter. There's maybe another 50, which would put the number at 1 million if you take into consideration the variation of numbers and the casualties. Still, where's the other 300,000 from?

It was explaned. Chapter send request to High Lords and then the captain may form the new chapter.
And the other ~300.000 are explained:

Eh, no, that's NOT how new chapters are formed, I at least have a source, you don't, just your opinion. The High Lords decide when new chapters are created, they aren't made simply because established chapters ask for them. They are also not formed through a captain and his entire fething company, it's formed through growing new progenoids and creating an entirely new set of marines, trained by veteran members from their source chapter. And no, the other 300,000 were not explained.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Is it stated somewhere that only infantry SMs count as SMs?

I didn't read that anywhere.

Even so, tanks are not driven by themselves ( their drivers go trough genetic modification and training to ), Dreds are not piloted by AI ( they have Space Marine inside it ) and books and chapter records are not cataloged themselves ( Librarians do that, and they almost never go into fight ). And if we add Honor Guard ( they are not included anywhere, not even in 1'st company ), Sternguard, Chaplain... we get a little larger number than 1000.

1,000,000.

iproxtaco wrote:
Eh, no, that's NOT how new chapters are formed, I at least have a source, you don't, just your opinion. The High Lords decide when new chapters are created, they aren't made simply because established chapters ask for them. They are also not formed through a captain and his entire fething company, it's formed through growing new progenoids and creating an entirely new set of marines, trained by veteran members from their source chapter. And no, the other 300,000 were not explained.

"The creation of a new Chapter is known as a Founding, and it does not happen overnight. Each Chapter is created from the gene-seed of an existing donor Chapter. The zygote is implanted in a human test-slave who spends his entire life in a static experimental capsule, immobile and serving nothing but as a medium which from two progenoids will develop. When the progenoids are developed, they are extracted from original test-slave and then implanted into another two test-slaves, producing four progenoids, and so on. It takes 55 years of reproduction to create a healthy set of 1,000 organs. These must be sanctioned officially by the Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the High Lords of Terra, speaking for the Emperor, who alone can give permission for the creation of a new Chapter."

This is how they are formed, and they also must be approved by AM as well as HLoT. Then again, there is no mention of captain anywhere? Then who do they use to produce a new chapter?

Yes Brother Coa, we know that, where in the feth does an extra 300,000 come from?

iproxtaco wrote:Yes Brother Coa, we know that, where in the feth does an extra 300,000 come from?

That's vehicle crews, Chaplin, honor guard etc.... there are around 250 - 300 more per chapter.

250 x 1000 or 300 x 1000 = 1.250.000 and 1.300.000. You get the idea....

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Is it stated somewhere that only infantry SMs count as SMs?

I didn't read that anywhere.

Even so, tanks are not driven by themselves ( their drivers go trough genetic modification and training to ), Dreds are not piloted by AI ( they have Space Marine inside it ) and books and chapter records are not cataloged themselves ( Librarians do that, and they almost never go into fight ). And if we add Honor Guard ( they are not included anywhere, not even in 1'st company ), Sternguard, Chaplain... we get a little larger number than 1000.

Alternatively, we get 1,000 total, with fewer infantry since a number of the SMs are employed as vehicle crew, librarians and honour guards.

Is there fluff to support your idea?

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Eh, no, that's NOT how new chapters are formed, I at least have a source, you don't, just your opinion. The High Lords decide when new chapters are created, they aren't made simply because established chapters ask for them. They are also not formed through a captain and his entire fething company, it's formed through growing new progenoids and creating an entirely new set of marines, trained by veteran members from their source chapter. And no, the other 300,000 were not explained.

"The creation of a new Chapter is known as a Founding, and it does not happen overnight. Each Chapter is created from the gene-seed of an existing donor Chapter. The zygote is implanted in a human test-slave who spends his entire life in a static experimental capsule, immobile and serving nothing but as a medium which from two progenoids will develop. When the progenoids are developed, they are extracted from original test-slave and then implanted into another two test-slaves, producing four progenoids, and so on. It takes 55 years of reproduction to create a healthy set of 1,000 organs. These must be sanctioned officially by the Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the High Lords of Terra, speaking for the Emperor, who alone can give permission for the creation of a new Chapter."

This is how they are formed, and they also must be approved by AM as well as HLoT. Then again, there is no mention of captain anywhere? Then who do they use to produce a new chapter?

That pretty much proves my point, whilst discounting yours. Care to explain what AM and HLoT are? And it's explained IN THAT QUOTE, where the new chapter comes from, the 1000 new progenoid glands produced over 55 years.

Brother Coa wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
I'm sorry to tell you this but you are very wrong, read Index Astartes. Chapters are only formed at the will of the High Lords of Terra (and ergo the Emperor), chapter's may petition the High Lords but it is not up to them.

That was I was saying. When chapter wants to made a successor they petition to High Lords. And if they approve then waht I have said happened - captain lead his men and found a new chapter of the Astartes. If not, then no matter.

What here does not go with that that you said?

That was not what you said, you went about it as if chapter masters contol new founding (as presented in fluff a chapter master successfully winning a petition to the High Lords of Terra for a founding is very rare, see CA) you have a theory with no fluff to support it. GW has released fluff that says that the Mechanicus make all new space marine chapters, they have not released information about a new chapter's training.

Even with the Carde theory (which is the closest one to your own) does not say that an entire company transfers over. It says that a chapter from the same geneseed family or the direct geneseed givers will send a small collection of veterans and a captain to help train and lead the new chapter.

Brother Coa wrote:
This is how they are formed, and they also must be approved by AM as well as HLoT. Then again, there is no mention of captain anywhere? Then who do they use to produce a new chapter?

You are pretty bad at debating if all you do is support the other side.

Every Chapter is required to send a tithe of geneseed to the Mechanicus/High Lords so that their purity can be monitored and new foundings can be made, the Mechanicus use vat grown humans to develop the organs for transplantation from geneseed stored in Mechanicus vaults.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Alternatively, we get 1,000 total, with fewer infantry since a number of the SMs are employed as vehicle crew, librarians and honour guards.

Is there fluff to support your idea?

The only fluff I had to support my claim is Space Marine army list. When you count all of them you get 1250 marines.

That include: all commanders + all 10 companies + support stuff.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Yes Brother Coa, we know that, where in the feth does an extra 300,000 come from?

That's vehicle crews, Chaplin, honor guard etc.... there are around 250 - 300 more per chapter.

250 x 1000 or 300 x 1000 = 1.250.000 and 1.300.000. You get the idea....

Why 300? You have your Chaplains, Librarians, Honor Guard, Pilots, that does not come to 300, it's about 50. Taking variances in standard numbers and casualties, as well as the lower number of Astartes in the scout company, we would get ROUGHLY 1,000,000, maybe a bit more, as in a few thousand more, or considerably less.