Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In the middle of a game and the space marine player puts all in reserve (he is playing Khan and in a very Ravenwing-esque army but it's standard SM). He decides after his 10 man bike squad comes onto the board he is going to combat squad them. I disagree because the BA FAQ states that units in reserve cannot combat squad. His unit was in reserve, therefore I say no combat squad. He argues intently and points in the BRB that it says you can hold units back in deployment and they haven't been deployed, and the C:SM states that they combat squad during deployment, which is when they hit the board....

Anyways, you make the call. How is it played? Who was in the right?

I think you're a little confused on the BA FAQ ruling (rightly so, it was poorly worded).

Essentially, you can't combat squad in reserves. You combat squad as the unit is deployed. Hence, you can't have one combat squad in a drop pod and one marching onto the table. You can however have one unit in a drop pod, and then combat squad when you hit the table (when they are deployed).

He was wrong. You cannot combat squad into reserve. They were deployed into reserve at the beginning of the game. The only exception is when emerging from a Drop Pod.

He's right, I'm afraid.

The FAQ is pointing out that you can't combat squad while in Reserve. So you can't, for example, put one combat squad in a drop pod, or half in a reserved transport and half on the table.

The reason you can't split in reserve is also the reason that you can do so when they arrive: the decision to split is made upon deployment. And arriving from reserves is considered deployment by the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

axeman1n wrote: They were deployed into reserve at the beginning of the game.

You don't 'deploy into reserves'... You place units into reserve instead of deploying them. They are deployed when they arrive onto the table.

like insaniak said, you cannot combat squad them while they are in reserve, (ie roll separate reserves for each combat squad, or send half of them in a drop pod ect). However, when they arrive from reserve, they are "deployed", and any squad that is eligible to be combat squaded(ie 10 man squads, or 8 bikes and an attack bike) may do so when they are deployed, even from reserve.

Norserune wrote: He decides after his 10 man bike squad comes onto the board he is going to combat squad them.

I'm not sure if I fully understand what your opponent did here. If he combat squaded them as he deployed them, then that is correct. But if he deployed them onto the board then, after deploying them tried to combat squad them, that is incorrect. Of course, if he just set them up on the table, made a pondering face, then said, "Actually I'm going to combat squad these" before doing anything else, I'd probably let that slide.

Combat squading a reserved tac squad is legal as long as you deploy them at the same time. The actual act of breaking the unit up is at the time they deploy, so once they come out of reserves they are in CS. The most common example of this I have seen is people putting a tac into a drop pod and 2 CS coming out to wreck shop.

-cgmckenzie

I see the error in my ways. Thank you Dakka for setting me on the path of further enlightenment!

Hi, I'm the one he is talking about. btw, it was on vassal, the ravenwing esque models is because I actually use those nnormally and don't like playing with smurfs. Though my list did say Khan, and all on it.

As for what I did so there are no mistakes or confusions...
I held my entire army in reserve, delcaring the bikes (Command Squad with 2 characters, and 3 full 9 man bike squads 8 bikes 1 attack bike) to come in by way of outflank (granted by the khan as he replaces combat tactics) and the 3 squadrons of land speeders to enter by way of deepstrike.

My first set of rolls sees the command squad with characters and 2 of the 3 bike squads come into play. I then roll for which side they come in on. At that point i placed them on their relative sides of the board, before movin onto the actual board (I start them as if they are behind the edge) I declared they were combat squading. And this is where the debate came in.

Norse or his friend I forget which said it was manipulating kill points, though we were playing objectives. Norse I believe pointed out the biggest issue with what I was doing. Which is I roll for one squad and get 2 out of it. I referenced the Rulebooks page on preparing reserves, and the Space Marine rules for combat squadding.

They mentioned they had seen it in a faq or update somewhere, but I checked both the space marine one and rule book one and couldn't find any referrence to what they were talking about. If I had been playing in error please let me know as I have been to several tournaments and occasionally this comes up, I give the references and they go.. huh.. well I guess thats how it is then. If I have been playing wrong I want to know so I can play correctly. So if anyone can find anything otherwise, please let me know.

You played it right, mpangelu.

mpangelu wrote:Hi, I'm the one he is talking about. btw, it was on vassal, the ravenwing esque models is because I actually use those nnormally and don't like playing with smurfs. Though my list did say Khan, and all on it.

As for what I did so there are no mistakes or confusions...
I held my entire army in reserve, delcaring the bikes (Command Squad with 2 characters, and 3 full 9 man bike squads 8 bikes 1 attack bike) to come in by way of outflank (granted by the khan as he replaces combat tactics) and the 3 squadrons of land speeders to enter by way of deepstrike.

My first set of rolls sees the command squad with characters and 2 of the 3 bike squads come into play.

All is good up to and through this point.

mpangelu wrote: I then roll for which side they come in on. At that point i placed them on their relative sides of the board, before movin onto the actual board (I start them as if they are behind the edge) I declared they were combat squading.

Here's where the problem arises, so, step by step.

Place the bike squad in reserve, declaring they will arrive by outflank. This decision cannot be changed later.
Roll for the squad to come in from reserve.
The unit arrives and at this point you are deploying the unit onto the table.
Now you combat squad the unit.
From this point on the combat squads are 2 separate units.
You now roll for each combat squad separately to see which table edge they arrive from.
Now the squads move onto the table.

The key point is that combat squadding does not change how or when the units will arrive from reserve.
The original squad is rolled for together then split into combat squads if desired.
Remember that you only choose to combat squad a unit when it is deployed, and with reserves you roll for all the units one by one, and after all the units have been rolled for, you then deploy them.
And the decision to split a unit into combat squads is made when the unit is deployed.

Never intended to make this a call out sort of thing Mpangelu. Just wanted to see what dakka thought ^^ I haven't came across the scenario and just thought it seemed odd that you could roll for one and get two out of reserve. Simply a rookie mistake considering my two armies are SW and IG. While I do admit my original post came across kinda blunt, it was never meant to be placed with names other than myself. I'd still like to have another game with you Mpangelu ;p

The unit arrives and at this point you are deploying the unit onto the table.
Now you combat squad the unit.
From this point on the combat squads are 2 separate units.
You now roll for each combat squad separately to see which table edge they arrive from.
Now the squads move onto the table.

I'm afraid I'm a bit confused on this part. According to the outflank, When the outflanking unit arrives from reserve the player rolls to see which side they come in from. And then after that are deployed as normal according to rules for arriving from reserve.

I would argue that they have to come in on the same side.

Outflanking, the squad arrives from Reserves, and then you roll to see where they are deployed.

Norserune wrote: Never intended to make this a call out sort of thing Mpangelu. Just wanted to see what dakka thought ^^ I haven't came across the scenario and just thought it seemed odd that you could roll for one and get two out of reserve. Simply a rookie mistake considering my two armies are SW and IG. While I do admit my original post came across kinda blunt, it was never meant to be placed with names other than myself. I'd still like to have another game with you Mpangelu ;p

Nonono you completely misunderstand my reason for posting. I wasn't thinking you were calling me out, I just wanted everyone to know exactly what was done so they could have a more informed decision. As I have said, I just want to know if I was doing wrong so I can correct it. You have no idea how much headache I went through last edition with thousand sons, of whether they could shoot and charge or not. Didn't really care which just need to know what I'm allowed to do.

But like I said, some people posting their responses were confused at what I had done, so I was trying to post a more detailed description. And I look forward to another game as well!

edit:
I'm not one of those guys who tries to bend rules to my advantage, I just want to know what the rules are to play in. I don't like cheating people, whether by accident or otherwise. I see no purpose in cheating. So if I make a mistake, I make every effort to correct it.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:I would argue that they have to come in on the same side.

Outflanking, the squad arrives from Reserves, and then you roll to see where they are deployed.

It can be a bit confusing, here are the rules that back me up.
We'll take 1 bike squad for the sake of argument.
Main rules page 94 preparing reserves you decide to reserve and outflank the unit.
Main rules page 94 you roll for the unit to arrive from reserve.
Main rules page 94 once you roll for all units to arrive you pick "...one of the units and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."
you now pick the bike squad and deploy it, deciding to split it into combat squads.
Codex Space Marines page 51, once you decide to combat squat the unit "...then each combat combat squad is treated as a separate unit for all game purposes from that point."
So you now have 2 separate combat squads arriving from reserve.
Main rules page 94, when units arrive from reserve they move on from the player's table edge unless outflanking or deep striking.
Main rules page 94, "When an outflanking unit arrives from reserves the controlling player rolls a dice..."

Arriving from reserves happens after you have rolled for the unit and deployed it.
Combat squadding happens when the unit is deployed, so before the unit arrives.
When the unit arrives and outflanks is when you roll for the table edge it will arrive from.

Yes, but the bikes aren't deployed until you discover which side you enter from.

The part your not placing in correct order is, the deploying of it. The bikes are coming in from reserve but not deployed yet. You can't deploy them to a table edge you haven't established yet?


Edit:

I came up with the best way of articulating what I was trying to say.

The arriving from reserve is a general how they work. However, in the part about arriving from reserve, the actual way they arrive is by way of outflank (the part described later). The unit rolls to see what edge they arrive from then are positioned blah blah blah. Which would be when they are deployed.

mpangelu wrote:Yes, but the bikes aren't deployed until you discover which side you enter from.

The part your not placing in correct order is, the eploying of it. The bikes are coming in from reserve but not deployed yet. You can't deploy them to a table edge you haven't established yet?

Main Rules Under 'Rolling for reserves', "Once all the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."

At this point, you are deploying the unit, but haven't actually placed it onto the table, but it is at this point that the decision to split the unit into combat squads is made and the combat squads are treated as separate units for all game purposes from this point. So you now have 2 separate units that are being deployed.

Now move on to 'Arriving from reserves', "When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless it's deep striking or outflanking)."
If you had combat squadded a unit, both squads now are moved onto the table from the player's table edge.

Now under 'Outflank', "When an outflanking unit arrives from reserve the controlling player rolls a dice..."

So first you roll for the units to arrive.
Then you deploy them.
Then you combat squad them.
Then you move them onto the table either from the table edge or by outflanking or deep striking.