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Company Command Squad- medipack, regimental standard, vox, Carapace, melta gun, Officier of the Fleet, Commander with meltabombs. Chimera- Extra armor, ML, HB. 235pts

Veteran Squad- 3 melta guns, lascannon, vox. Chimera-Extra armor, ML, HB. 195pts
Veteran Squad- 3 melta guns, lascannon, vox. Chimera-Extra armor, ML, HB. 195pts
Veteran Squad- 3 melta guns, lascannon, vox. Chimera-Extra armor, ML, HB. 195pts
Veteran Squad- 3 plasma guns, lascannon, vox. Chimera-Extra armor, ML, HB. 210pts

Vendetta 130pts
Vendetta 130pts
Vendetta 130pts

Demolisher- lascannon, plasma cannons 220pts
Demolisher- lascannon, plasma cannons 220pts
Medusa- siege shells. 140pts

2000 pts on the nose.

Every Chimera should have hull heavy flamers for horde control. I would drop all the extra armor as well, seeing as you've dropped a significant amount of points into it that could be spent elsewhere. So that's 75pts saved. Drop the voxes, because you can't issue orders to vets in chimeras, so another 25pts bringing our total to 100pts. Then drop the medic from the CCS, as well as the standard, the carapace, and the OotF. Bringing out total to a whopping 195pts that could be spent elsewhere. The demolishers are nice, though if you do run plasma cannon sponsons, they fit better on an executioner.

Now, 195pts can get you another vet squad with some points leftover to get another melta gun or two on the CCS.

I don't think I could ever field a troop transport without extra armor- movement is critical when you need it.

If I kept the EA, but followed the rest, that still gives me 120pts to use- 130 if I get rid of the melta bombs and siege shells.

Hmmm....

EA is useful, don't get me wrong, so I'll try to convince you otherwise. A chimera costs 55pts. EA costs 15pts. Is 15pts worth allowing your 55pts model to move when someone either glances you and rolls a 4, or pens you and rolls a two? Now with all the pts you save by not bringing EA, you get another chimera with a scoring troop choice in armed with BS4 meltaguns. Now your opponent has a whole extra target to worry about. Your opponent isn't worried about you being able to move if he just so happens to stun you, he's going to be worrying about blowing the chimera completely to get at the squishy vets.

Simply put, armor saturation wins out against trying to make your armor go further.

Granted its your list and you can do what you want, but with IG, you need the basics, and lots of it. Redundancy and multiples are key, not bringing over upgraded units. Hell, I personally believe the lascannons on the vets are useless, but that's personal taste.

For example, here's what I would run if I were you:

Company Command Squad - 4x Meltagun, Chimera/145pts

Veteran Squad - 3x Plasma Gun, Chimera/170pts
Veteran Squad - 3x Plasma Gun, Chimera/170pts
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Chimera/155pts
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Chimera/155pts
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Chimera/155pts
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Chimera/155pts

Vendetta - /130pts
Vendetta - /130pts
Vendetta - /130pts

Leman Russ Battle Tank - /150pts
Leman Russ Demolisher - /165pts
Leman Russ Executioner - /190pts

You can swap the heavies for similarily pointed heavy support choices, but the point is they're still russes and you seem to want at least two. That's 2000pts on the nose with not a single unnecassary upgrade. By dropping everything that doesn't absolutely need to be in the unit for it to function, you can bring two extra vet squads in chimeras.

Anyways, try out bringing more armor to the table, should work in your favour.

I'm afraid you make a compelling argument. Agraid I say since I'm using Krieg as my forces. So damned expensive.

Blacksails hit the nail right on the head. Only change I would make is I feel the MoF is well worth the points in any game over 1500. But this is personal preference.

I would keep the standard, i think it's pretty good.

i agree with blacksails and his list too.

What s your thinking Moopy about the lascannons in the mech vets squads? If there is other reason than the - understandable - wish to increase the pts cost fo the expensive FW models lol I can dig that, im building a mech IG army myself now, based on Renegade Militia...

I plan to run a list similar to the one Blacksails posted, though i plan on running AV12 heavy choices instead of russes (2x manticore, 2x hydra). And my CCS squad is gonna have plasmas.

EDIT: heck ill post my list, for additional inspiration:

HQ

Company Command Squad w/ Chimera - 4 x plasma guns (165)

Troops

Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x melta guns (155)
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x melta guns (155)
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x melta guns (155)
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x plasma guns (170)
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x plasma guns (170)
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x plasma guns (170)

Fast Attack

Vendetta (130)
Vendetta (130)
Vendetta (130)

Heavy Support

Manticore Missile Launcher (160)
Manticore Missile Launcher (160)
2 x Hydra (150)

Total: 2000 (all tanks have hull heavy flamers)

All advice given so far seems sound to me. LordofMuck has what looks like a scarier list to me, manticores and hydras are more points-efficient than upgraded leman russes. Demolishers especially, although the firepower is great, you have to get close in, where your opponent may have meltaguns. Isn't it a bit depressing that a competitive mech IG list is so easy to make and looks the same as everyone else's?

Totally agree with Blacksails on EA. The way I always think of it is: for every time stunned results occur, your vehicle is immobilised or wrecked 3 times. It is an upgrade that usually won't even come into play. Across an army, say it is useful on 2 occassions in a game. You could have bought another vehicle unit for that amount!

Your CCS has the wrong wargear. They have items for close combat, not that they would win one. Just give them max special weapons and be done with it.

Meltaguns don't need lascannons either as you won't to move the meltas into range which means the meltas are not firing.

Rest is ok, except extra armour which has been mentioned already.

Blacksails had it mostly right. Except you can't leave home without an OotF. It should be an auto-take in any Guard list.

Demolishers are overcosted. Putting plasma cannons on them makes it even worse. If you want AP2 large blasts, you take Medusas. Also, leave the siege shells at home.

Your heavy support is where this list needs the most help. You have way too much short ranged AP2. You need to diversify your threat potential through your heavy support selections. A Manticore, 2 Medusas and 2 Hydras is a great catch-all threat portfolio.

To reiterate something else that has been communicated. Extra armor is crap. Vox is crap. Medics are crap. Carapace is crap. Standard is crap.

Also, never, ever, ever, ever mix the utility of special weapons and heavy weapons in your squad loadouts. If you want to run a lascannon, run a lascannon and nothing else. Don't hamstring your ability to shuffle melta and palsma around the board because you bought a lascannon for your Vets. Also, you have 3 vendettas.... it's not like you need a lascannon sitting in your backfield.

Comparisons between russes and artillery in general are not valid as they play different roles. The only similarities are that they both spew high strength, low AP, large blast templates. Comparing a demolisher to a medusa is invalid as one is a tank and the other other artillery, filling the roles of breakthrough tank, and backfield support, respectively. The problem with medusas is their lack of indirect fire, meaning the enemy will have LoS if you have LoS. Being AV 12/10 and open topped makes it a distinctly different choice and flavour from bringing an AV 14/13/11 tank to the field.

That being said, generally the most competitive lists will run two manticores and two hydras, or just three manticores. Other flavours exist, though slightly less competitive, but by no means relegated to strictly casual play.

Also, none of the advisors are 'must take' units. In fact, only the Astropath is necessary if you run a Creed/Al'Rahem outflank foot blob list of doom...which is kinda specific and not altogether 'Ard Boyz material. Paying 30pts for an OotF to potentially hamper an opponent that relies on reserves, who likely also has a bonus to their own reserves is 30pts better spent elsewhere.

Competitive guard lists are quite simple. Take a CCS with 3-4x melta in a chimera, nothing else. Then take a mix of melta and/or plasma vets (at least one per 500pts). Then fit at least two vendettas. Then add in mix of either manticores and hydras, or russes and other artillery. Just bring multiples of everything and avoid squadrons wherever possible (except pairs of hydras). That's mech guard. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

Foot guard, however, is where the real fun begins...

LordofMuck wrote:i agree with blacksails and his list too.

What s your thinking Moopy about the lascannons in the mech vets squads?

Considering that you can fit 5 people out of the top hatch of the chimera makes it really nice to do that + the 3 meltas. However that means you can't move, so it becomes situational.

But the real idea behind it was this:

Most of objective games go for 5 turns. That gives me about 1-2 turns where I need to obliterate any armor or transports and then 3 turns of moving flat out to take enemy objectives. Vets with their BS 4 gives more accurate LC shots to add to the massive firepower of the artillery + vendettas.

Blacksails wrote:Comparisons between russes and artillery in general are not valid as they play different roles. ... Comparing a demolisher to a medusa is invalid as one is a tank and the other other artillery, filling the roles of breakthrough tank, and backfield support, respectively.

Really dude? The only "roles" that matter in 40k generally, and certainly Imperial Guard specifically, are threat profiles. In any truly competitive army, you have to be able to cover all the target bases: AV14, MEQ, horde infantry, light transports, 2+ infantry. If you can cover those bases, you have a competitive list. To that end, Demolishers and Medusas fill the same niche in your target portfolio. Period. When you say things like "breakthrough tank" and "backfield support", you sound like some yahoo trying to apply real world and largely irrelevant military nomenclature to a game of plastic dudesmen. Invalid? Shove it.

Look at GT winning Imperial Guard lists. Do you see Demolishers? No, clown. You see Medusas.

Blacksails wrote:Also, none of the advisors are 'must take' units. In fact, only the Astropath is necessary if you run a Creed/Al'Rahem outflank foot blob list of doom...which is kinda specific and not altogether 'Ard Boyz material. Paying 30pts for an OotF to potentially hamper an opponent that relies on reserves, who likely also has a bonus to their own reserves is 30pts better spent elsewhere.

Again, absolutely wrong. Look at competitive IG lists. There is a reason EVERY tournament placing Guard list has a Master of the FLeet. Let's deconstruct the fail in your post:

A) An opponent likely has a bonus to their own reserves.

False. That distinct majority of codexes are unable to affect their reserves.

B) The first thing almost any competent opponent is tempted to do when a Mech Guard list gets the first turn is full reserve. Why? Duh - who wants to suck a full IG alpha strike. An Officer of the Fleet makes your opponent think hard about the full reserve move because the only thing worse than sucking an IG alpha strike is coming on piecemeal and getting obliterated in waves.

C) If you knew anything about competitive play, you'd know that outflanking is a critical weakness of Mech Guard armies. The Officer of the Fleet turns a sure-thing outflank placement into something imminently more questionable. Absolute value add.

Personal insults are not allowed on DakkaDakka. Please review the site rules ASAP. Thanks, Manchu

First of all discountbarber, your tone is not welcome in a discussion that up to this point was civil. Ease off, we're discussing toy soldiers on the internet.

Sure, threat profile may be significant, but demolishers and medusas still pose different threat profiles. Again, the only similarity is their S10 AP2 pie plate, but as we all know, AV14 is significantly different than AV12. A lone demolisher isn't particularly effective because you have no other AV14 to saturate with, but three russes pose three AV14 problems. Medusas are particularly fragile due to their open-topped nature and that much more susceptible to being downed on turn 1-2 due to their perceived threat profile.

The IG heavy slots lack a true 'bad' choice. There are 'better' choices, but I offer that there is very little in the way of 'bad'. Sure, Colussus are meh, but they have their fans. Likewise I dislike Griffons, but their point cost makes them worthwhile in pairs, particularly at small point levels.

Using demolishers varies greatly from using medusas. Demolishers will sit in front of your chimeras to impose AV14 between then enemy and your chimeras, and rear AV11 doesn't hurt either. Yes, they're going to die a horrible death, but so will medusas, as will half of your army, its unavoidable. Regardless, my point still stands that artillery like manticores and basilisks cannot and should not be compared to russes, one being a backfield support (they sit in the backfield and lob artillery since you seem to reject my use of military -esque terms when discussing plastic dudesmen) while russes lead the attack from the front, akin to how a breakthrough tank would be used, but then again 40k =/= real life.

If you have 30pts leftover that you truly can't find a better use for, sure, take an OotF, but I'm of the belief that if I can use that 30pts to get something more directly useful in providing firepower, I'm going to take it. Then again, my old meta had little in the way of outflanking units that particularly worried me.

Seriously though, ease off on the tone.

A bit harsh discountbarber but 100% true. With a well built IG list and a bit of luck you can table most opponents by turn 3. They do this with shear weight of there firepower. Most players will do anything to keep an IG player from getting that chance to clear half the force on turn one. So the MoF makes it a worse idea to start off the table. You know that proverbial rock and a hard place. On top of that this little guy is an insta gib on some lists. DOA blood angels, bugs, demons, DP assaults. Any list that builds off the idea of sneaky reserves has already bit it as soon as they sit down at the table.

As for the russ vs. artillery. AV has nothing to do with it, every placing GT list I’ve ever seen was all chimera chasses. AV 12 right down the list. IG doesn’t need AV 14 tanks, in all reality the russ pays for its AV with its efficiency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will say yes, when playing in a smaller venue the demolisher is a different pressure tool. But as your competition gets better, your opponents wont fell the stress of it. If they have a way to repel a land raider they can easily handle a demo.

I feel I can speak for most when I say, the Demo isn’t a bad choice. But there are far better for the job. IG isn’t built to suck up damage, the only goal is to cripple and destroy as much as you can each turn. So when comparing these to unit’s the medusa will come out on top every time. The only thing that out guns it is the manticore.

komosunder wrote:
As for the russ vs. artillery. AV has nothing to do with it, every placing GT list I’ve ever seen was all chimera chasses. AV 12 right down the list. IG doesn’t need AV 14 tanks, in all reality the russ pays for its AV with its efficiency.

QFT. If you don't get this, you shouldn't opine about the Imperial Guard. Got no idea what you're talking about.

Blacksails wrote:First of all discountbarber, your tone is not welcome in a discussion that up to this point was civil.

Protip: Calling a clearly reasoned and fundamentally basic observation about an army "invalid" is the height of hilarity and incivility. Keep diggin' that trench.

Aren't you a friendly individual?

I'd like to point at no point did I espouse bringing russes over artillery in super competitive lists, in fact I stated quite clearly that super competitive lists will often bring mixes of manticores and hydras.

My point is simply that you should not be comparing a tank to artillery, that even in the abstraction that is 40k, fulfill distinctly different roles, especially other variants of the russ.

Anyways, I really have no inclination to keep this going with someone as pleasant as yourself. I don't post here to deal with individuals like yourself, when the rest of the community is quite excellent here.

Insulting frippery deleted.

Please keep the discussion on-topic. Thanks, Manchu

when the rest of the community is quite excellent here.

Haha, you have got to be joking. With a few noteable exceptions, the community here hasn't got a clue how this game works at a competitive level.

Onto the list.

It's inefficient as hell. Change the Chimeras Heavy Botlers to Heavy Flamers and drop the extra armour.
In the CCS drop the vox caster, medipack, standard and meltabombs. Take more Melta and an Astropath in addition to the OotF so you can reliably reserve the Vendettas.
Get rid of the demolishers and medusa and replace them with manticores.
Downgrade the Veteran Lascannons to Autocannons. It's fine to mix heavy/special weapons when they're so cheap, see some of my previous posts for a more detailed explanation.
Drop the Plasma Vets, and with the points saved from above you should be able to buy a PCS and two Infantry Squads in Chimeras, with either Melta/Autocannon or Grenade Launcher/Autocannon. Increasing your mech saturation and troop count is a good thing.

Two questions (since I'm new to guard):

Why manticores? I guess I've seen them used wrong.

Why deep strike the vendettas? Don't I want them on the board turn 1 for all the lc shots?

discountbarber wrote:Look at GT winning Imperial Guard lists. Do you see Demolishers? No, clown. You see Medusas.

Medusas are not a strong unit and haven't been in favor competitively for quite a while, as they require line of sight and are far too vulnerable to incoming fire. For whatever reason, Medusas were popular when the Codex first came out, but competitive IG armies seem to have largely shifted to Manticores and Hydras. On the other hand, Demolishers can still be a solid choice, as their high AV makes them very tough to take out without closing to melta distance, unlike Vindicators or indeed Medusas. Your assertion that Demolishers don't feature in GT winning IG lists is unfounded-- look at MVBrandt's Straken vets for a good example of a successful list that incorporates Demolishers.

moopy wrote:Two questions (since I'm new to guard):

Why manticores? I guess I've seen them used wrong.

Why deep strike the vendettas? Don't I want them on the board turn 1 for all the lc shots?

Manticores are good because they're strength 10 ordnance (so they are good versus vehicles) and fire d3 large blasts (so they are good versus hordes). They are a very all-comers choice, since they are strong against everything from Land Raiders to Ork Boyz. The one weakness of the Manticore is that it is only AP 4, and thus has a limited effect versus Terminators and the like, but IG armies generally incorporate enough melta and plasma to deal with Terminators fairly competently regardless.

Deep Striking your Vendettas is almost always a poor choice, but in some cases you may wish to deploy them in normal reserves or outflank to avoid losing them immediately, especially when dealing with armies that pack a big long-range firepower punch.

Fetterkey wrote:

discountbarber wrote:Look at GT winning Imperial Guard lists. Do you see Demolishers? No, clown. You see Medusas.

Medusas are not a strong unit and haven't been in favor competitively for quite a while, as they require line of sight and are far too vulnerable to incoming fire. For whatever reason, Medusas were popular when the Codex first came out, but competitive IG armies seem to have largely shifted to Manticores and Hydras. On the other hand, Demolishers can still be a solid choice, as their high AV makes them very tough to take out without closing to melta distance, unlike Vindicators or indeed Medusas. Your assertion that Demolishers don't feature in GT winning IG lists is unfounded-- look at MVBrandt's Straken vets for a good example of a successful list that incorporates Demolishers.

It is true that Medusas have fallen out of favor. Heck - I used to run them and no longer do. But they certainly aren't being replaced by Demolishers.

I assume you are talking about this MVBrandt list? http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/03/adepticon-1850-ig-list.html

First of all, he took 7th. Second of all, there is a reason why Demolishers make sense in a Straken list and not an IG gunline list. When your entire army is on the move and bumrushing the opponent, 24" mobile AV14 str 10 AP 2 large blasts are great. In a gunline, your AV14 means nothing when you have to break ranks with the parking lot to range targets, subsequently putting yourself at high melta risk.

Fetterkey wrote:

moopy wrote:Two questions (since I'm new to guard):

Why manticores? I guess I've seen them used wrong.

Why deep strike the vendettas? Don't I want them on the board turn 1 for all the lc shots?

Manticores are good because they're strength 10 ordnance (so they are good versus vehicles) and fire d3 large blasts (so they are good versus hordes). They are a very all-comers choice, since they are strong against everything from Land Raiders to Ork Boyz. The one weakness of the Manticore is that it is only AP 4, and thus has a limited effect versus Terminators and the like, but IG armies generally incorporate enough melta and plasma to deal with Terminators fairly competently regardless.

Deep Striking your Vendettas is almost always a poor choice, but in some cases you may wish to deploy them in normal reserves or outflank to avoid losing them immediately, especially when dealing with armies that pack a big long-range firepower punch.

QFT re: Manticores. Though Feterkey misses a critical value-add of Manticores. In 40k, most shooters only have the ability to affect a single target unit. I call that the 1:1 shooter to target ratio. A savvy player with a little luck can turn the D3 large blasts of a Manticore into direct hits on 3 poorly spaced units (ideally vehicles). It's rare, but I've blown up three vehicles with one Manticore in a single turn.

Learning to manipulate the 1:1 shooter to target ratio is one of those things that separates good 40k players from great 40k players.

Never DS a Vendetta. If you get 1st turn, you basically always deploy your birds. If you get second and your opponent has the ability to shred AV 12, Outflanking the Vendettas will at least guarantee you the chance to shoot before being shot at. This is an especially good decision if you're playing at the NOVA or any tournament using Mike's FAQ. The NOVA FAQ allows Vendettas to move on the board 6", leaving the tail hanging off the board edge and enabling the player to fire all three lascannons. Huge advantage for IG players.

discountbarber wrote:It is true that Medusas have fallen out of favor. Heck - I used to run them and no longer do. But they certainly aren't being replaced by Demolishers.

Correct; they are being replaced by Manticores and Hydras in most lists, as I originally stated.

Well thanks to everyone for helping on this. Now I have to purchase a few more models.

I have a couple of follow up questions.

1. How do you beat a list like this list without taking this list? Other than hoping they roll terribad.

2. Vets: take shotguns or lasguns?

Buying more models is always a good thing, especially if you can blame the purchase on other people!

Vets I run with lasguns as it doesn't require extra modelling and if they ever have the ability to use the assault from having shotties then they're dead anyway!

How to beat this, deep strike into the tanks ...

Moopy wrote:Well thanks to everyone for helping on this. Now I have to purchase a few more models.

I have a couple of follow up questions.

1. How do you beat a list like this list without taking this list? Other than hoping they roll terribad.

2. Vets: take shotguns or lasguns?

1. Depends on what you have.

2. Shotguns are almost certainly better, but if you don't feel like modeling the shotties, lasguns are fine too and the difference only becomes apparent under some circumstances.

1) when it comes to IG this is your top tear list. You could spam a guard line, and pray you get lucky, but I feel it will be very difficult to beat them consistently.

As for other armies, SW can be difficult if played by a competent player. that’s the only real all commers list I feel is a real threat. People can tool for mech guard but unless you see them first round they prob won’t get a chance to play you.

2)I’m going to completely disagree with fetterkey, under no circumstance are shotys better. But to be honest this will only effect about one in a hundred games. Basically you trade the ability to sit and shoot 24, for the ability to shoot and assault. Both are equally effective at 12.

As for the medusa, still a very powerful unit. And I think only a few would criticize the choice on using them. But they are starting to phase out due to people spamming manticores.

Moopy wrote:Well thanks to everyone for helping on this. Now I have to purchase a few more models.

I have a couple of follow up questions.

1. How do you beat a list like this list without taking this list? Other than hoping they roll terribad.

Mech Guard are generally weak to Vulcan drop pod lists, Long Fang + Wolf Scout spam and DOA Blood Angels. Speaking more generally, the list is also weak to opponents with overwhelming deepstrike or outflank capabilities. I play a mean Mech Guard list and recently wrote a post about how to beat my army on my blog. Check it out here: http://discountbarber.com/?p=31

Fetterkey wrote:

Moopy wrote:

2. Vets: take shotguns or lasguns?

2. Shotguns are almost certainly better, but if you don't feel like modeling the shotties, lasguns are fine too and the difference only becomes apparent under some circumstances.

Not true. There is only one loadout where shotguns are best.

The only truly optimal way to run Vets is with 3 melta or 3 plasma. Some people will say that sticking a BS4 lascannon or autocannon in a backfield Vet squad is an acceptable thing to do. I disagree - but there is certainly room for an argument.

When do you take shotguns? Shotguns are essentially lasguns that trade 24" range for 12" range and assault weapon classification. Remember: Unless you have a USR, only models armed with assault weapons or pistols can shoot in the shooting phase and then mount an assault.

It quite literally only makes sense to take shotguns if your special weapon upgrades are also assault weapons. Why? If you are shooting a squad of infantry with your vets armed with assault special weapons, you will be able to bring more firepower to bear on your target with the shotguns firing and still retain the option to charge your enemy in the assault phase.

Out of the three viable options for Vet loadout that I highlight above, only the melta are assault weapons and therefore you should only run shotguns in melta Vet sqauds. Lasguns are indisputably better choices for plasma Vets and almost indisputably (as in, 99% optimal) for heavy weapon vets you stick in your backfield.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

komosunder wrote:
2)I’m going to completely disagree with fetterkey, under no circumstance are shotys better.

Also wrong. See above.

ruminator wrote:How to beat this, deep strike into the tanks ...

OK, I have to ask, what do you mean 'deepstrike into the tanks'?