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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

Feel free to post how and why you voted, but please DO NOT ENGAGE OTHERS IN DISCUSSIONS/ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THE RULES SAY. Please create a separate thread if you feel the urge to have this kind of discussion.



The rules for 'Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight' say (rulebook, pg 58): "Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models. If the target happens to be in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons, then work out if the target gets cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing model in a normal unit."


The rules for 'Cover Saves' say (rulebook, pg 21): "What Counts as Cover? Cover is basically anything that is hiding a target or protecting it from incoming shots. For example, a soft obstacle (like a hedge) that would hide soldiers behind it, but would not even slow down enemy shots, confers a 5+ save, purpose-built fortifications confer a 3+ save, most other things confer a 4+ cover save. More detail can be found in the Cover chart below [which lists Units (friends and enemies) as granting a 4+ cover save]."

and:

"When are models in Cover? When any part of the target model's body is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover."

and:

"Intervening Models: If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models, it receives a 4+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain. This does not mean that intervening models literally stop the shots, but rather that they obscure the sight of the firers or otherwise spoil their aim."

and:

"Exceptions: In order to keep the game flowing at a faster pace, we have made a few exceptions to the cover rules given on the previous page, namely: Own unit: In the same way as they can trace line of sight through members of the their own squad, models can always shoot, and be shot at, through members of their own unit without conferring or receiving a cover save."

and:

"Units Partially in Cover: Sometimes, a unit will only be partially in cover, with some of its models in cover and some in not. In this case, you must decide if the majority of the unit is in cover. Models that are completely out of sight are considered to be in cover for this purpose."




QUESTION: If a vehicle's weapon is firing at a unit, but less than half of the models in the target unit are within the weapon's 'arc of sight' do you play that the unit gets a cover save simply because more than half of its models are out of the 'arc of sight'?


Example #1:

The Leman Russ is only able to fire its 3 Heavy Bolters at the Grots (the turret weapon has been destroyed). However, both its front and right Heavy Bolters have less than half of the Grot models in the target unit within their 'arc of sight'. Does this mean the unit gets a 4+ cover save (presumably for being obscured by the vehicle itself)?


Example #2:

The Leman Russ is only able to fire its right sponson Heavy Bolter at the Marines (the turret weapon has been destroyed and the other Heavy Bolters cannot see any of the Marines). However, the majority of the Marine models are out of the Heavy Bolter's 'arc of sight'. Does this mean the Marine unit counts as being in cover and if so, what cover save does it get and why (I know Marines don't need a cover save from a Heavy Bolter, but let's ignore that for now okay! )?



OPTION A. I play that an enemy unit cannot get cover for hiding behind the firing vehicle itself and therefore in both examples above the Grots & Marines WOULD BOTH NOT GET a cover save.


OPTION B. I play that anytime more than half the models in the unit are out of line of sight (which is the same as 'arc of sight' in my opinion) from the majority of the weapons firing on a vehicle, then the target unit gets a cover save. So in both examples above the Grots & Marines WOULD BOTH GET the 4+ cover save (with the Marines getting a 4+ cover save simply because that's the default cover save option).


OPTION C. I play that the the Grots WOULD GET a 4+ cover save in Example #1 but the Marines WOULD NOT get a cover save in Example #2 (please post your reasoning for voting this way in the thread below).


OPTION D. I play that the the Grots WOULD NOT get a 4+ cover save in Example #1 but the Marines WOULD GET a cover save in Example #2 (please post your reasoning for voting this way in the thread below).


OPTION E. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

As before, option B. You are out of line of sight (page 16, visible == los) and so get a cover save.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As before, option B. You are out of line of sight (page 16, visible == los) and so get a cover save.

Second

I would play C.

While it isn't RAW, I have a hard time claiming my Grots gets a save from the Leman Russ right in front of me (RAW or not).

Why the hell is the Leman Russ wasting shots on the Gretchins anyway?

They are standing on that critical objective.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As before, option B. You are out of line of sight (page 16, visible == los) and so get a cover save.

As before (now that the example is more clear), I'm curious to hear your opinion on what cover save you'd give in Example #2 and why, if you don't mind.

Steelmage99 wrote:I would play C.

While it isn't RAW, I have a hard time claiming my Grots gets a save from the Leman Russ right in front of me (RAW or not).

??? I don't see any 'C' votes above!

I play as 4+, because the vehicle itself is an intervening model - the sponson is getting in the way of the otherwise free-to-rotate gun.

I just realized that I was playing D all along. It seems intuitive that a unit standing right in front of a tank would not get cover from that tank, unless special stuff like a KFF is involved. A unit which is partially out of sight of the all weapons is obviously in cover. I don't think I would change playing it, as I'd be the person gaining an advantage from it, and checking five or more firing arks on some vehicles seems to a waste of time. Especially for 50% arguments involving a landraider shooting both sponsons at a vehicle.

yakface wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I would play C.

While it isn't RAW, I have a hard time claiming my Grots gets a save from the Leman Russ right in front of me (RAW or not).

??? I don't see any 'C' votes above!

Not only did I mean to say D, I forgot to actually vote.
And once I did vote I pressed C, which was wrong. I meant to press D.

On a day like this I should just stay away from Dakka all together.

[quote=yakfaceOPTION D. I play that the [b]the Grots WOULD NOT get a 4+ cover save in Example #1 but the Marines WOULD GET a cover save in Example

Can you explain why?

The rules tell you to treat each weapon fired by a vehicle as a seperate "model" for the purposes of determining if the units firing gives a cover save.

Creating an exception for vehicles is fine, just wanted to know why.

models out of sight cannot be allocated wounds as per the relevant shooting sections, it doesn't give the unit cover as none of the models in line of sight have cover, nor is most of the unit in cover. Cover isnt granted by being 100% out of line sight.

blaktoof - are you playing 4th edition? As the rule you just "quoted" does not exist in 5th edition.

By the letter of the rules both the grots and marines are in cover.

Nos- Funny that you mention that.... Uhh yeah actually i still play in 4th edition lol :(

relooking at 5th edition rules my previous statement is totally wrong.

I voted B.

Obviously it looks a bit funny that a unit in the open should get a cover save because you can shoot at less than half of it. However that is just a seeming discrepancy because of the way the rules work.

If the sponson shoots at the SMs it can score more wounds than the number of figures within its LoS. This is the same seeming discrepancy, arising from the way the rules treat units.

Kilkrazy wrote:If the sponson shoots at the SMs it can score more wounds than the number of figures within its LoS. This is the same seeming discrepancy, arising from the way the rules treat units.

This isn't limited to vehicles though, and happens quite often in games I witness. A squad with 8 bolters shooting a squad with only 1 out of 10 visibile models, for instance.

Yes. My point is that the rules treat units of X models as a single entity. You don't get a choice to shoot at just the models out in the open.

I would love to vote, but for some reason none of the pictures are showing up and I can't display them. So, I'll abstain until late tonight.

I voted B.

Different weapons on a Tank function just like members of a squad.

In Example A: if you don't want the Grots to get a cover save, then only fire the one sponson. However, you probably have a better chance of doing damage by giving the squad a cover save and firing more weapons.

Look at Example A: this way.... it works in the Tank's favor if 2 out of the 3 weapons on the tank DON'T allow a cover save. The weapon that the squadron is in cover from could be the most deadly weapon on the tank, but only able to draw LoS to one lone model.

But if the other two weapons on the tank have clear LoS to the squad, then they get no cover save from ANY of the weapons. Too bad for the squadron in that example.

In Example B: it seems obvious that these marines should get a cover save.

I voted B as well, and I'm a little surprised by the number of A's. Would someone who voted A like to explain their reasoning?

Also (apologies to yak if this derails it too much; it could probably go in a different thread), does the type of weapon have any bearing on this?

Let's assume that we have a pintle-mounted Heavy Flamer instead of Heavy Bolter, and we only fire with the left HB sponson (as Murrdox just suggested), plus the Heavy Flamer. The Heavy Flamer still needs to draw LoS technically, but doesn't allow cover saves. However, it would still result in half of the weapons from the firing vehicle having less than half of the enemy unit in LoS. Would the Heavy Bolter sponson (which, itself, draws LoS enough to not allow cover) then cause wounds that a cover save could be used against?

B, again.

As I said in the other thread, the FAQ has clarified that vehicles do block their own LOS.

As for example 2, I would consider it LOS being blocked by a model, so a 4+ cover save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah, I would also love to hear an explanation from those voting for A.

This is really really tricky based on the examples given.

For example A if every shot was made, yes cover save, since it's worked out for each weapon. However if the left most bolter was the only one that shot, no since more than 50% is visible.

For example B, if the sponson didn't move then yes, cover. But I fail to see what's stopping the gun from turning in the image, is there a pole in the way or something?

Not all sponsons have a ~180 degree LoS - Leman Russes are examples of ones who only have ~90 degrees of movement, because of the design of the vehicle.

Yeah, that was one of the specific changes in 5th edition... Leman Russes and old-style Predators have had a 180 degree fire arc on their sponsons since 2nd edition, despite the models not actually being capable of it. 5th edition specifically limited it to the physical traverse range of the weapon.

Did not know that, insaniak. With that in mind, I think I see why people voted A - a mixture of old sponson rulings for example 2 and a belief/lack of understanding regarding different guns on vehicles for number 1.

Where in the rule book does it say that a unit recieves a cover save if less than half of the unit is visible to shooter?

"When are models in Cover? When any part of the target model's body is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover."

OP is taking this out of context of the cover rules, with the sentence referring to the model being obscured by an actual piece of cover or a separate intervening unit.

purpleboxbluebox wrote:Where in the rule book does it say that a unit recieves a cover save if less than half of the unit is not visible to shooter?

Er... It doesn't?

Or did you perhaps get a little carried away with double negatives?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purpleboxbluebox wrote:OP is taking this out of context of the cover rules, with the sentence referring to the model being obscured by an actual piece of cover.

If you check the 'Units Partially In Cover' section, it also specifies that models not visible to the firer count as in cover.

purpleboxbluebox wrote:"When are models in Cover? When any part of the target model's body is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover."

OP is taking this out of context of the cover rules, with the sentence referring to the model being obscured by an actual piece of cover or a separate intervening unit.

If a model isn't in LoS, then I can't see how it is anything but obscured.

Also, as stated above (from the FAQ), vehicles do not exclude their own model when determining whether or not their target is obscured.

This is the rule you're looking for purpleboxbluebox:

"Units Partially in Cover: Sometimes, a unit will only be partially in cover, with some of its models in cover and some in not. In this case, you must decide if the majority of the unit is in cover. Models that are completely out of sight are considered to be in cover for this purpose."