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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

Feel free to post how and why you voted, but please DO NOT ENGAGE OTHERS IN DISCUSSIONS/ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THE RULES SAY. Please create a separate thread if you feel the urge to have this kind of discussion.



The rules for 'Template Weapons' say (rulebook, pg 29): "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models. Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without also touching a friendly model. Any models fully or partially under the template are hit."


The rules for 'Vehicles & Measuring Distances' say (rulebook, pg 56): "...for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements). There is however a notable exception, a vehicle's weaponry. When firing a vehicle's weapons, ranges are measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon, whilst line of sight is determined from the weapon's mounting point and along its barrel (as explained later)."


The rules for 'Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight' say (rulebook, pg 58): "Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models."


Games Workshop's online Rulebook FAQ (v1.4, pg 3) says: "Q: If a model fires a template weapon out of a vehicle, will the vehicle be hit if it is underneath the template? A: No it will not be hit."




QUESTION: Some vehicle side-sponson template weapons can be rotated enough so that the template is technically able to be placed over the firing vehicle model (such as a Space Marine Land Raider Redeemer). Other vehicles have template weapons that are literally impossible to fire without placing the template over the firing vehicle model (such as a Sisters of Battle Immolater). How do you play with these types of vehicles when firing their template weapons?




OPTION A. I play that any vehicle firing a template weapon is allowed to/must place the template over their own hull (within the weapon's normal arc of sight) in order to cover as many enemy models in the target unit while not covering any other friendly models.


OPTION B. I play that a vehicle firing a turret-mounted template weapon (as on an Immolator, for example) is allowed to/must place the template over their own hull (within the weapon's normal arc of sight) in order to cover as many enemy models in the target unit while not covering any other friendly models, but that a side sponson-mounted template weapon (as on a Land Raider Redeemer, for example) is not allowed to place their template covering any part of the firing vehicle's hull under any circumstance.


OPTION C. I play that template weapons fired by a vehicle are never able to be placed over the firing vehicle's hull in any circumstance, including turret-based template weapons (as on an Immolater), which basically means those weapons cannot be fired unless the turret is turned in such a way so that the barrel of the firing weapon is beyond the edge of the vehicle's hull.


OPTION D. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

I chose option 'B' as that is what our gaming group has decided to make the most sense. We rejected option 'C' because it seems clear that there is intent that SoB Immolators and the like should be able to fire their own weapon despite what the rules RAW say. Option 'B' also addresses the issue of a LRR not being able to fire covering its own hull. We agreed to that because first, the LRR can fire its flame template weapon normally without having to violate any RAW, and second, because it gives an advantage that would otherwise not be present in other Land Raider variants in being able to essentially shoot "through" the vehicle similarly to how the hull of a Land Raider can block its own Lascannon sponsons from firing. It was for these reasons that we feel option 'A' is inadequate in its restrictions/allowances.

While I believe in"B", my group plays it very differently. In the vehicle rules it states that since vehicles don't have a base you would measure to/from the hull. In the flamer template rules it says you place the template "touching the models base", we play it as place the template anywhere the template touches the hull of the vehicle. You, of course, need line of sight from the barrel of the gun to a model but after that place template however you like.

I disagree with this entirely, but it isn't my call.

Hellstorm wrote:While I believe in"B", my group plays it very differently. In the vehicle rules it states that since vehicles don't have a base you would measure to/from the hull. In the flamer template rules it says you place the template "touching the models base", we play it as place the template anywhere the template touches the hull of the vehicle. You, of course, need line of sight from the barrel of the gun to a model but after that place template however you like.

I disagree with this entirely, but it isn't my call.

Mainly because it entirely ignores the rules for firing vehicle weapons, which is that the shots come from the barrel....

B. A heavy bolter sponson can't shoot through the hull either, why should a flamer be able to?

Yeah, B for me. Allows turrets to work as intended without breaking the sponson fire arc rules.

We play 'A' technically and that's what I voted for, even though we don't allow the forward firing template arch any more 'into' the hull. If a side sponson template weapon is firing directly forward, we feel it's fine to have a bit of the template over the hull, but we don't allow the weapon arch to move the template even further across the hull to cover more enemy models.

Jidmah wrote:B. A heavy bolter sponson can't shoot through the hull either, why should a flamer be able to?

Of course a heavy bolter can shoot at enemy models it can't see. As long as one model in the target unit is within the weapon's firing arc, then the whole unit can theoretically be hit and killed by the heavy bolter.

Similarly, any model with a template weapon only needs to see a single model in the firing unit and then he's totally allowed to place the template over enemy models that are out of LOS.

So this isn't a question of line of sight, this is a question of whether or not you're technically allowed to place a template over part of the firing model.

insaniak wrote:Yeah, B for me. Allows turrets to work as intended without breaking the sponson fire arc rules.

If you look at pretty much any spice sponson arc and you pivot the weapon as close to the hull as possible and then you place the template so that it is effectively shooting 'straight' out of the barrel, part of the template will end up covering a tiny bit of the firing vehicle's hull.

So Choice #A above clearly says that you still have to follow the firing arcs allowed by the sponson...so we're not talking about placing the template completely over the firing vehicle to hit an enemy model on the opposite side (for example), we're talking only about the template slightly going over the edge of the firing vehicle within the weapon's normal firing arc.

yakface wrote:
The rules for 'Template Weapons' say (rulebook, pg 29): "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models. Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without also touching a friendly model. Any models fully or partially under the template are hit."

Option C

Well, I voted B, but changed my mind to A after reading your post yakface. Even with normal sponson rules, it's highly likely a piece of the template will touch the hull.