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Guide to Safe trading on Dakka

Trading on the internet is always a risky business. Even on supposedly reputable sites like Ebay, troubles can, and do occur over transactions. Just in my time here on Dakka, I've seen at least half a dozen ways scammers have ingeniously attempted to part people from their possessions at little or no cost to themselves. And as a site where all trading is Caveat Emptor (buyer beware), there is little recourse at the end of the day should a scam occur. Police departments tend not to want to handle small cases of mail/internet fraud, it's too time consuming, and the value of the transaction tends to be too small. Public naming and shaming has can have little or no effect, depending on the trader. If an issue between you and another person is genuinely an unfortunate mishap with no genuine attempt to scam, it can be worthwhile, as nobody wants their online credibility ruined. However, a genuine scammer will simply take the hit, and then attempt to pop back up under another online persona. Overall, the most effective method of dealing with internet fraud, is simply to ensure it never happens in the first place.

The most efficient way of doing that is to make several checks before agreeing to anything. Whilst its still conceivably possible that one could do everything I am about to list, and still get scammed, the simple fact is that 99% of bad trades or scams are pulled off successfully, simply because people neglect to cover themselves adequately and ensure the other trader is a good 'un. Scammers work on the ignorance, gullibility or negligence of their trade partners, and by following a decent procedure, you can immunise yourself against most risk. What I shall detail is aimed specifically at ensuring a safe and successful set of trades here on Dakka, however the general principles could be copied on most trading sites on the internet. So, in numerical order....


Profile appearance

A profile on Dakka is an insight into someone's personality, and what they intend to get from the website. So when considering offering a trade with someone, or a a trade offered to you, your first step should be to survey their profile. Take a look at their username. What does it say about the person? Have they taken the time to fill out any personal details, such as age, location, likes and dislikes, and so on? Have they added a profile picture, and writing or a banner in their signature? All these things indicate a time commitment to a website, and an interest in participating in the community. Someone who has done all of the above is someone who has invested time in their profile, in anticipation of spending more time on the website. This indicates a certain attachment to the site in question, which is desirable in a trade partner on here.

Your second port of call when examining a profile is their username. Whilst not always a good indicator of the reliability of a trader (and certainly, you should never discriminate based on this alone), someone with a username along the lines of 'funboy34623' is generally going to be less reliable, and less attached to the website than say (to pluck a few random names), 'Tironum', or 'Kanluwen'. Literacy is always a desirable trait in anything in life, and I've noticed in my time as a SwapMod, that those that who possess it tend to be of a more mature, trust-inspiring type. Such a thing always bodes well for a transaction. For someone investing their time and energy somewhere, their web 'handle' (or username) is usually something they take a short while to think about, in order to create something that sounds acceptable to them, that they are happy to be addressed by. An illiterate, off the sleeve web handle is an indicator of poor commitment to the site, once again. As mentioned, this is not a solid gold plated law however, more of a generalised rule of thumb.

Finally, someone's post history should be examined. Where are their posts? How many of them do they have? Do they have a well established presence on the site already? 'Johnnyboywutlol456' who has one post, which is offering a £400 transaction in the swapshop should be scrutinised with care. To reiterate again (although I don't wish to belabour a point), attachment to a website is very much desirable in a trade partner, as it means they are less likely to suddenly cut off contact, and ensures that they check the site regularly also. Someone who has a thousand posts, spread across all areas of the site over several months, that are well thought out and written, is eminently more trustworthy than someone who has five barely readable posts, all made on the same day that they offered the deal up in the Swapshop. Again, this is no gold plated rule, but something that can help you filter out potential problematic trades before they occur.

All in all, a thorough profile examination is something that should be examined before even entering into correspondence with a potential trade partner. Someone who ticks none of the above boxes, is someone who should be treated with much greater care and suspicion that someone who does. Not overtly of course, as said, these are not complete gurantors of untrustworthiness, and rudeness is never desirable, but a greater wariness and caution should be in order.


Trade History

So, you've found a good looking trade, and like the look of his profile. Your next stop should be the Reputable Trader Thread. Has the chap made any transactions before? If he has thirty odd previous transactions, you're probably in safe hands. If he has, say four, its an indication of good previous activity, but should not be taken as a guarantor. After all, credit can be awarded for simply buying goods from another trader. Some few simple transactions, whilst a nice indicator, is not necessarily an assurance in and of itself, and a reason to throw caution to the winds. If they're in the top ten traders list in the RTL (Reputable Trader List), you can probably dispense with most of your worry, but anything under twenty or so transactions, and you're justified in maintaining your caution. (if they tell you they have good trade rep outside Dakka, ignore it. Ebay credit works on Ebay, Bartertown credit works on Bartertown, Dakka credit works on Dakka. What they've done outside is of no relevance here)

If they have just a few past transactions, speak to the people they did it with. Message them. If your potential trading partner has 5 credit gained from buying small value items from other traders, and they're offering you a large quantity of goods for a lot of money, those previous five trades are as good as worthless in judging their trustworthiness over the current kind of transaction. If you message their previous trade partners as well, you can find out other things, such as the reliability of a trader, posting speed and so on. Most people will have no problem with telling you what kind of transaction they made with your potential trading partner, and of any issues that might have cropped up. Such information is invaluable when gauging the trustworthiness of a deal.

Your next stop is the Transaction Report list. Now having a transaction report filed against you is not a black mark in and of itself (I've seen several reports which made me determined never to trade with the person who opened it as opposed to the person it was opened against, due to them clearly being impatient/unreasonable people).Nonetheless, if someone has a record of unreliability, or taking liberties with describing their items, you'll want to know about that before proceeding, and the TR list is the best place to track down that sort of information.

Correspondence

So. You've decided to want to initiate a trade with a person. However, before a trade is ever agreed, usually comes the haggling/negotiation over how the trade is going to work. This is the time to take stock of your partner in a few other ways before finalising an agreement. Your first consideration, should be on how long they take to reply to your messages. If they reply twice a day, it's a good indicator of reliability. If they reply once every three days, not so much. Secondly, how good is the deal they offer? If it's too good to be true, it usually is, to steal a maxim. Nobody is going to honestly sell you an old Armorcast titan for fifty quid. Very rarely, you will come across a complete bargain, but it tends to be rare. If something is ridiculously cheap, and the reason seem to be something other than the seller being genuinely unaware of the value of their goods, stop to question why. To quote a conversation I heard once;

Salesman: 'I must be an idiot or insane to be selling this to you this cheap!'
Buyer: ' So which are you? Either one doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about the goods you're selling'.


The Exchange

So. You've haggled each other into an agreeable deal. How do you ensure they don't take everything and leave you with nothing? Trusting a stranger can often be hard, and with good reason. Negotiating who posts first is often a bone of bitter contention.

As a general rule of thumb, if they have twenty feedback, and you have none, they're in a position to request you post your end, or send your money first. However, conversely, if you have twenty feedback, and they have only a few or none, you too, are in a position to demand they fulfill their end of the bargain first. In the eyes of the community, you have pretty much established yourself as a decent trader, and they are the unknown factor. If they get shifty over that, then you should consider pulling out. If you are established, you have nothing to prove, and everything to lose.

However, maybe the other trader is simply uncertain of online trading and doesn't want to take the risk. Let's say everything else is fine, but neither you want to take the risk of first posting. Perhaps neither of you have positive feedback. Maybe the deal is too high value with either party wanting to take the risk. Your first solution would be to see if you can meet up in person. If that's not a possibility, than maybe the deal could be broken down into several transactions, so that if any part of it goes wrong, your risk is minimised (so several payments, and several posted sets of goods). Or, you could try messaging one of the more high profile trustworthy traders as a neutral, and requesting that they hold the goods until those from both parties have arrived, and then sending them on their way (reimbursing them for the postage, and their efforts suitably-maybe a few drinks?).


Failing all else, cancel the transaction. Don't take the risk. If they're not agreeable to a halfway compromise, pull out. If you feel they're a little shady, pull out. You're under no obligation until the goods have been sent from either end. Dickering over a trade is fun, but an end result is not compulsory.

If you follow all these procedures, you should be safe from most scams and scammers out there. It's not an iron clad guarantee at the end of the day, but by following the above procedures, you can reduce your risk factor for bad trades to an absolute bare minimum.

Happy trading.

Very well put! +1!

Well, a tip for overseas transactions that should be included:

Do not send by Govt post like Royal mail or USPS. Always send via FedEx, UPS or DHL. While more expensive they can track a package once it leaves the shores of your country. This way when you need to file a claim with Paypal or Ebay you have ironclad proof of delivery to whatever residence or business that the package was shipped to. Most scammers will turn away from a deal once they see that it is being shipped by a one of those companies.

Well done, permission to shout "Bavo!" obnoxiously loud?

Excellent guide, but wouldn't this serve as a guide for people to gain the trust of users when they just want to rip them off? Not trying to minimize what you have done here, just an observation.

One exception with your "trade history" part. While not dispositive (nothing on your list is), someone's history on ebay or bartertown might show that they're a good trader.

If someone has 1000+ references on b-town, but 0 on dakka, that should weigh in their favor.

It's at least as useful as whether someone has updated their "likes and dislikes" in their dakka profile

biccat wrote:
If someone has 1000+ references on b-town, but 0 on dakka, that should weigh in their favor.

But how do you trust that I'm the same 'daedalus' that is on bartertown, or eBay for that matter? Alternatively, how can you say that something saying 'X' is their username is telling the truth? My eBay username is 'noimbrad', but I could just as easily claim I'm 'wizardgames' or 'hoard_o_bits' for that matter. Hoard 'o' Bits isn't even a user on this site. I could register the name right now and claim that I just created the user so that I could try to expand my presence. There's no way to actually prove it.

daedalus wrote:

biccat wrote:
If someone has 1000+ references on b-town, but 0 on dakka, that should weigh in their favor.

But how do you trust that I'm the same 'daedalus' that is on bartertown, or eBay for that matter? Alternatively, how can you say that something saying 'X' is their username is telling the truth? My eBay username is 'noimbrad', but I could just as easily claim I'm 'wizardgames' or 'hoard_o_bits' for that matter. Hoard 'o' Bits isn't even a user on this site. I could register the name right now and claim that I just created the user so that I could try to expand my presence. There's no way to actually prove it.

There is ways to prove it. Sure it is more time consuming but its there. For example:

If the person you're working a trade with here is named is Bob, you can message someone "Bob" traded with on Btown. Ask them if the person ever said their name. If they said yea its Bob (while nothing is 100% even someone with perfect dakka record can scam) it makes it a lot more promising that it's the same guy.

To go even further, and I state again more time consuming but can be worth it, ask a person bob traded with for the address. Compare it to the on Dakka wanting to trade. If they don't match or aren't even close, good time to pull out. If they match, that makes it highly more likely they are telling the truth

But how do you trust that I'm the same 'daedalus' that is on bartertown, or eBay for that matter? Alternatively, how can you say that something saying 'X' is their username is telling the truth? My eBay username is 'noimbrad', but I could just as easily claim I'm 'wizardgames' or 'hoard_o_bits' for that matter. Hoard 'o' Bits isn't even a user on this site. I could register the name right now and claim that I just created the user so that I could try to expand my presence. There's no way to actually prove it.

I say do it like Reagan, "Trust but Verify." meaning - take it as a good sign, but if in doubt PM the other trader on one of the other sites. I have the same avatar on both Dakka and Warseer and I check them both at least weekly. Then also, message the person on eBay as well, and ask them to quote you your message back to you on another server (which is easy enough to do with copy and paste).

daedalus wrote:

biccat wrote:
If someone has 1000+ references on b-town, but 0 on dakka, that should weigh in their favor.

But how do you trust that I'm the same 'daedalus' that is on bartertown, or eBay for that matter? Alternatively, how can you say that something saying 'X' is their username is telling the truth? My eBay username is 'noimbrad', but I could just as easily claim I'm 'wizardgames' or 'hoard_o_bits' for that matter. Hoard 'o' Bits isn't even a user on this site. I could register the name right now and claim that I just created the user so that I could try to expand my presence. There's no way to actually prove it.

You could easily PM poeple on Btown and confirm who they are. That's one method. As far as ebay I believe messaging is available there as well.

biccat wrote:One exception with your "trade history" part. While not dispositive (nothing on your list is), someone's history on ebay or bartertown might show that they're a good trader.

If someone has 1000+ references on b-town, but 0 on dakka, that should weigh in their favor.

It's at least as useful as whether someone has updated their "likes and dislikes" in their dakka profile

I don't find EBay's ranking systems good at all. A person like Tony Heath has more than one account and has a possitive rating of 167 right now comments redacted. The issue is that there has to be a reason that person left a site with that many possitive feedbacks. We could go round and round with this but there is no fool proof system out there. So it is still buyer/seller beware.

Just do your homework on the person and if you get any kind of negitive vibe from the person then just don't trade. Always use tracking numbers, insurance on large expensive items and shipping companies for overseas shipping and not your Govt's mail.

Pipboy, please avoid name-calling and insults

Pipboy101 wrote:Well, a tip for overseas transactions that should be included:

Do not send by Govt post like Royal mail or USPS. Always send via FedEx, UPS or DHL. While more expensive they can track a package once it leaves the shores of your country. This way when you need to file a claim with Paypal or Ebay you have ironclad proof of delivery to whatever residence or business that the package was shipped to. Most scammers will turn away from a deal once they see that it is being shipped by a one of those companies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that a Customs Form or Proof of Receipt form satisfied the means of showing that the package was indeed delivered (or at the very least sent out into the mail). I know that with USPS, shipping is cheaper than FedEx or UPS, and the services provided by the latter two are far superior (ie - being able to track an international package), but if proof that it was sent into the mail is sufficient, would that not AT LEAST protect the person who shipped it?

I understand that on the "Buyer" end of this deal, there is a risk, but perhaps that it would at least be prudent to make aware to them that the package being sent to them has a small chance of not arriving.

Forgive me if that sounds naive (or even ignorant), but I've been trading on Dakka for quite awhile now, and have yet to experience anything like a few poor individuals have (see TR thread for revackey and Haeslich) when shipping things to and from other places. I've shipped Internationally a few times as well, and have yet to experience anything like that, though there is always a first time for everything.

2 things I'd like to add as well, feel free to ignore.

1. If your trading partner is a mod, or, to a lesser degree, dcm, your pretty safe. DCM's pay to be part of this site, so unless they were trying to make some huge rip off, its a good sign. Not 100%, but with the other precautions, it is worth noting.

2. Can we get this thread stickied? I fear without that it will quickly drift off the front page, never to be seen again.

RB,

There have been many people that traded or sold to someone overseas and shipped with USPS and their paypal claim has been denied because there is no proof that it arrived at their door step. With a shipping company it is tracked through their entire system right to their doorstep so paypal is more than likly side woth the seller that way. Also, it is solid evidence for the police. Usps is fine in the states but overseas it is just better to use a shipping company.

Pipboy101 wrote:RB,

There have been many people that traded or sold to someone overseas and shipped with USPS and their paypal claim has been denied because there is no proof that it arrived at their door step. With a shipping company it is tracked through their entire system right to their doorstep so paypal is more than likly side woth the seller that way. Also, it is solid evidence for the police. Usps is fine in the states but overseas it is just better to use a shipping company.

You're probably right. Unfortunately, this probably means most of the us in US will have less business dealings with people over our country borders. Shame...

daedalus wrote:no way to actually prove it.

i send your B-town account a message saying 'hey, it's hemingway on dakka. you pm'd me there citing this account as evidence of your reliablity. would you mind copying that sent message back to me here so i know it's the same person?'

the only way they would be able to do that is if they were, or if they had hacked the original account holder, which is a pretty long shot.

i also agree that if someone has a high trade rep on various sites it is a pretty good indicator the individual is a safe trader. you just need to establish that it is the same person.

Pipboy101 wrote:

biccat wrote:One exception with your "trade history" part. While not dispositive (nothing on your list is), someone's history on ebay or bartertown might show that they're a good trader.

If someone has 1000+ references on b-town, but 0 on dakka, that should weigh in their favor.

It's at least as useful as whether someone has updated their "likes and dislikes" in their dakka profile

I don't find EBay's ranking systems good at all. A person like Tony Heath has more than one account and has a possitive rating of 167 right now comments redacted. The issue is that there has to be a reason that person left a site with that many possitive feedbacks. We could go round and round with this but there is no fool proof system out there. So it is still buyer/seller beware.

Just do your homework on the person and if you get any kind of negitive vibe from the person then just don't trade. Always use tracking numbers, insurance on large expensive items and shipping companies for overseas shipping and not your Govt's mail.

Unfortunately, ebay's decision to make buyers immune to bad feedback has almost completely ruined their rating system as an indicator of online reliability. If someone posts that they have a good ebay rep as proof of their honesty, I look for the two following things:

1) Were they a member with significant feedback prior to 2008ish when ebay stopped giving buyers negative feedback?
2) Do they have feedback both as a buyer and seller?

If they were a good buyer prior to 2008 and have consistently been a good seller before and after, I do take the rating into partial consideration. Either way, I ask them to message me on ebay to prove that they have access to both accounts just in case. In regards to bartertown, I take that rating more importantly than ebay but still ask them to PM me there as proof as well as look at their ads on both sites to see if the grammer/style/pictures match. While I agree that the user's trade rating of the site in question (in this case Dakka's) is the single MOST important indicator, I humbly disagree that the other gaming trading site ratings are completely irrelevant.

The only thing that I'd add that wasn't specifically mentioned is using whether or not the poster is clearly indicating some of the groundwork terms and conditions in his/her post and whether or not they're generally following the swap shop rules. I trust a seller who has clear terms outlined from the get go ("I only ship within the US and shipping costs $5 for parcel post with delivery confirmation") to be more organized than someone who doesn't. If the person's own posts in the Swap Shop generally are poorly worded with little description of the terms of sale and/or the condition of the models (including clear pics when painted models are in question), I don't have much faith in their ability to properly package and ship the models in a timely fashion let alone trust them to not outright scam another user. While the above is somewhat covered in the general category of posting history, I think it deserves it's own separate mention. Someone can be a complete troll donkeycave in the off-topic forum but yet still be an incredibly easy and trustworthy trader in the swap shop. Secondly, check the user's previous swap shop posts... are there frequent red text edits that indicate incorrect formating of the title as well as early bumps? The stickied rules for the swap shop (as well as the presence of mods specific to it) have been around long enought that a member who repeatedly violates them despite warnings might not be most reliable trader. If they can't be trusted to read the stickied threads or even the mod additions to their own posts, they might not pay much attention to the details agreed upon in the individual trade (shipment dates, packing requirements, etc). If someone has a single red mark in their first swap shop thread, I generally don't take that too negatively as everyone can make a mistake but multiple "mistakes" means a big red flag for me personally.

Other than those two details, I wholeheartedly agree with the points raised in the article. Kudos to Ketara for taking the time and effort to post it.

Thanks for the link to the page, really useful for helping me make an informed decision and how to go about trading while both avoiding scammers and how to make a deal run smoothly.

I also think that stickying this would be helpful, as I myself still have trouble find my way round this website, being a complete Luddite and all, and would help future and potential traders.

If I have pretty strong idea that someone is scammer, so I did not go ahead with the trade, but never actually got scammed by them, should I do anything to warn the general community about this trader? Or is posting information about someone being shady without actually being scammed by them not allowed / looked down upon?

Generally speaking, it never hurts to drop a swapmod a little message saying why you felt another user might be dodgy.