CSM: Tough list to beat!

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**wuestenfux**

HQ 1: Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission 155 pts
HQ 2: Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission 155 pts

Elite 1: 3 Chaos Terminators w/ 3x combi-meltagun 105 pts in Transport 1
Elite 2: 3 Chaos Terminators w/ 3x combi-meltagun 105 pts in Transport 2

Troop 1: 5 Chaos Space Marines 75 pts
Troop 2: 5 Chaos Space Marines 75 pts
Troop 3: 5 Chaos Space Marines w/ Flamer 80 pts in Transport 3

HS 1: 3 Obliterators 225 pts
HS 2: 2 Obliterators 150 pts
HS 3: 2 Obliterators 150 pts

Transport 1: Chaos Land Raider [Terminator Squad (Elite 1)] 220 pts
Transport 2: Chaos Land Raider [Terminator Squad (Elite 2)] 220 pts
Transport 3: Chaos Rhino [Chaos Space Marines Squad (Troop 3)] 35 pts

Total: 1750 pts

Tactics: 2 LRs (with scoring units inside), 7 Obliterators, 1 Rhino castle up, DPs mislead enemy units, Termicide disrupt enemy plans.

This is a tough list to beat. How to? What army?

**Jihallah**

can't think of it off the top of my head, but doesn't the dedicated transport have to start with the unit its dedicated to? i.e if your going to termicide, thus holding those terms in reserve, don't the land raiders need to be held in reserve at the start too?

Its a pretty tough list though. Some fast moving melta action might ruin your day though...

**GoDz BuZzSaW**

Jihallah wrote:can't think of it off the top of my head, but doesn't the dedicated transport have to start with the unit its dedicated to? i.e if your going to termicide, thus holding those terms in reserve, don't the land raiders need to be held in reserve at the start too?

Its a pretty tough list though. Some fast moving melta action might ruin your day though...

Nah The Terminators can either start out of the transport or in , thus being held in reserve while the chaos land raider is on the table

Looks like a Solid List. The Dual Lash will do wonders for you.

**Raumkampfer**

The 5 man Chaos Marines in Land Raider strategy is nonsense.

If you take a Land Raider, stick a strong CC squad inside to make use of the 12" move + 6" charge. They're not worth the points using them like this.

**Jihallah**

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Jihallah wrote:can't think of it off the top of my head, but doesn't the dedicated transport have to start with the unit its dedicated to? i.e if your going to termicide, thus holding those terms in reserve, don't the land raiders need to be held in reserve at the start too?

Its a pretty tough list though. Some fast moving melta action might ruin your day though...

Nah The Terminators can either start out of the transport or in , thus being held in reserve while the chaos land raider is on the table

Looks like a Solid List. The Dual Lash will do wonders for you.

cool! wasn't 100% off the top of my head on that one

Whilst a tough list, It does seem to lack in killy power

**extrenm(54)**

Isn't this one of the lists from ETC?

**wuestenfux**

extrenm(54) wrote:Isn't this one of the lists from ETC?

In fact, this is the list of vip-user that I battled very often in the past. This list became standard in the Hamburg area. Its really tough to face. The units castle up shooting or misleading everything that comes close. In the mid or end game of objective based missions the army rolls forward. Even outflankers have a hard time to get close as the army can castle up in the center. By the way, the small CSM units are just there for scoring purposes.

**Murenius**

Hmm, what about indirect fire? If the terrain is right something like Tyranid Hive Guards could shoot the CSM castle without much fear of retaliation, except the termicides (which would then be separated and you could deal them while the castle is tied up without being able to shoot as well).

**wuestenfux**

Okay, what armies can deal with this CSM list?

1. DoA: An all jump-packer BA army with lots of meltas could be a viable option. In this case, the CSM army will castle up with the LRs in front and the Obliterators behind so that it will be hard for the meltas to reach them in the first place. The DoA will then need to pop the LRs so that they can get LoS to the Obliterators and the DPs. This would decimate the CSM army quickly. Vanguard Vets could try to charge Oblits upon arrival.

2. Razorback BA/SW spam: Vip-user said he can deal with those armies popping the steal coffins before they can do larger damage.

3. Nids: Genestealers could outflank. However, the CSM army castles up in the center so that they'll need one turn to get into charging range. Hive Guard needs to get into range, too. Their weapons instantly kill Obliterators but lack AP. The only option for Nids is to put pressure upon the CSM army by using target saturation and fast units.

**GoDz BuZzSaW**

wuestenfux wrote:Okay, what armies can deal with this CSM list?

1. DoA: An all jump-packer BA army with lots of meltas could be a viable option. In this case, the CSM army will castle up with the LRs in front and the Obliterators behind so that it will be hard for the meltas to reach them in the first place. The DoA will then need to pop the LRs so that they can get LoS to the Obliterators and the DPs. This would decimate the CSM army quickly. Vanguard Vets could try to charge Oblits upon arrival.

2. Razorback BA/SW spam: Vip-user said he can deal with those armies popping the steal coffins before they can do larger damage.

3. Nids: Genestealers could outflank. However, the CSM army castles up in the center so that they'll need one turn to get into charging range. Hive Guard needs to get into range, too. Their weapons instantly kill Obliterators but lack AP. The only option for Nids is to put pressure upon the CSM army by using target saturation and fast units.

I think you could include Dark Eldar in there too, but it would be a pretty close fight.

**willydstyle**

My IG isn't anything special, but wouldn't have a very tough time with this list. Obliterators are too easy to kill, and the daemon princes don't do anything of note. If they try to rush me, they die to multi-laser, heavy bolter, and heavy stubber fire.

**wuestenfux**

In fact, Dark Eldar could take on this army with success. For instance, consider a DE army with 2 portals having 1st turn could deploy them in the center. Fast moving units like BM squads should be able to charge Obliterators early in the game while dark matter shots take care of armor.

**Kylis**

Raumkampfer wrote:The 5 man Chaos Marines in Land Raider strategy is nonsense.

If you take a Land Raider, stick a strong CC squad inside to make use of the 12" move + 6" charge. They're not worth the points using them like this.

Never heard of the ETC? There are lists that you put against armies that don't have enough firepower or melta to take down the Land Raiders so with this kind of list you can have easy victories against some Eldar (seer council) and some space marine lists (including BA quad Land Raider list).

**wuestenfux**

Kylis wrote:
Raumkampfer wrote:The 5 man Chaos Marines in Land Raider strategy is nonsense.

If you take a Land Raider, stick a strong CC squad inside to make use of the 12" move + 6" charge. They're not worth the points using them like this.

Never heard of the ETC? There are lists that you put against armies that don't have enough firepower or melta to take down the Land Raiders so with this kind of list you can have easy victories against some Eldar (seer council) and some space marine lists (including BA quad Land Raider list).

Indeed, if the other side has to deploy first, the other side is able to select a specific army to take it on. This list can handle several enemy armies as said and so can be ideal in this kind of environment. However, its also annoying in the general setting.

**ArtfcllyFlvrd**

Jihallah wrote:
GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Jihallah wrote:can't think of it off the top of my head, but doesn't the dedicated transport have to start with the unit its dedicated to? i.e if your going to termicide, thus holding those terms in reserve, don't the land raiders need to be held in reserve at the start too?

Its a pretty tough list though. Some fast moving melta action might ruin your day though...

Nah The Terminators can either start out of the transport or in , thus being held in reserve while the chaos land raider is on the table

Looks like a Solid List. The Dual Lash will do wonders for you.

cool! wasn't 100% off the top of my head on that one

Whilst a tough list, It does seem to lack in killy power

But the 5 man units can't start the game in the raiders, they have to be on the table and move into them. I'm pretty sure they can't reserve with them either. Not a huge deal because you can probably hide 5 marines completely behind a raider, but it does change things a little.

It looks like a fun and decent army. I do have a hard time picturing it running with the big dogs of the day. The one exception might be grey knights which I think this has a alot of things that aren't super easy for them to deal with.

**mercer**

wuestenfux wrote:Okay, what armies can deal with this CSM list?

1. DoA: An all jump-packer BA army with lots of meltas could be a viable option. In this case, the CSM army will castle up with the LRs in front and the Obliterators behind so that it will be hard for the meltas to reach them in the first place. The DoA will then need to pop the LRs so that they can get LoS to the Obliterators and the DPs. This would decimate the CSM army quickly. Vanguard Vets could try to charge Oblits upon arrival.

2. Razorback BA/SW spam: Vip-user said he can deal with those armies popping the steal coffins before they can do larger damage.

3. Nids: Genestealers could outflank. However, the CSM army castles up in the center so that they'll need one turn to get into charging range. Hive Guard needs to get into range, too. Their weapons instantly kill Obliterators but lack AP. The only option for Nids is to put pressure upon the CSM army by using target saturation and fast units.

I doubt this list could beat Blood Angels Razorspam. It has a total of 11 lascannons, 4 of split among two units and the remaining between three units so maximum targets that can be engaged is 5 - that's not a lot. Add in your factor to miss, damage and also cover saves you're looking at 1-2 dead tanks a turn if that. I honestly cannot see this beating Razorspam.

My list would roll up drop double templates from Vindicators on the Land Raider while las/plas the Obliterators. Then will have to mop up the Terminators, Princes and CSM.

**Valek**

Dark eldar would rape this they love stupid raiders,
Lances and whyches with haywires...

**wuestenfux**

mercer wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:Okay, what armies can deal with this CSM list?

1. DoA: An all jump-packer BA army with lots of meltas could be a viable option. In this case, the CSM army will castle up with the LRs in front and the Obliterators behind so that it will be hard for the meltas to reach them in the first place. The DoA will then need to pop the LRs so that they can get LoS to the Obliterators and the DPs. This would decimate the CSM army quickly. Vanguard Vets could try to charge Oblits upon arrival.

2. Razorback BA/SW spam: Vip-user said he can deal with those armies popping the steal coffins before they can do larger damage.

3. Nids: Genestealers could outflank. However, the CSM army castles up in the center so that they'll need one turn to get into charging range. Hive Guard needs to get into range, too. Their weapons instantly kill Obliterators but lack AP. The only option for Nids is to put pressure upon the CSM army by using target saturation and fast units.

I doubt this list could beat Blood Angels Razorspam. It has a total of 11 lascannons, 4 of split among two units and the remaining between three units so maximum targets that can be engaged is 5 - that's not a lot. Add in your factor to miss, damage and also cover saves you're looking at 1-2 dead tanks a turn if that. I honestly cannot see this beating Razorspam.

My list would roll up drop double templates from Vindicators on the Land Raider while las/plas the Obliterators. Then will have to mop up the Terminators, Princes and CSM.

Well, I possibly gonna try this. What list would you suggest? I'd take auto/las Predators instead of Vindicator here.

Dark eldar would rape this they love stupid raiders,
Lances and whyches with haywires...

A DE spam list could be an answer.

**dreadknightl**

maybe a 3x 5 man long fang spam with 3 squad 15 man blood claw and 3 wolf priests. Tyr fill in as much bodies as possible with the standard 4 ML on the long fangs for decent fire support

**wuestenfux**

dreadknightl wrote:maybe a 3x 5 man long fang spam with 3 squad 15 man blood claw and 3 wolf priests. Tyr fill in as much bodies as possible with the standard 4 ML on the long fangs for decent fire support

Well, missile launchers do not really scratch armour (LR, Oblits) but can easily take on DPs and Rhinos. Runepriests would be vital in this list to stop the DPs casting the lash of submission.

**mercer**

wuestenfux wrote:
mercer wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:Okay, what armies can deal with this CSM list?

1. DoA: An all jump-packer BA army with lots of meltas could be a viable option. In this case, the CSM army will castle up with the LRs in front and the Obliterators behind so that it will be hard for the meltas to reach them in the first place. The DoA will then need to pop the LRs so that they can get LoS to the Obliterators and the DPs. This would decimate the CSM army quickly. Vanguard Vets could try to charge Oblits upon arrival.

2. Razorback BA/SW spam: Vip-user said he can deal with those armies popping the steal coffins before they can do larger damage.

3. Nids: Genestealers could outflank. However, the CSM army castles up in the center so that they'll need one turn to get into charging range. Hive Guard needs to get into range, too. Their weapons instantly kill Obliterators but lack AP. The only option for Nids is to put pressure upon the CSM army by using target saturation and fast units.

I doubt this list could beat Blood Angels Razorspam. It has a total of 11 lascannons, 4 of split among two units and the remaining between three units so maximum targets that can be engaged is 5 - that's not a lot. Add in your factor to miss, damage and also cover saves you're looking at 1-2 dead tanks a turn if that. I honestly cannot see this beating Razorspam.

My list would roll up drop double templates from Vindicators on the Land Raider while las/plas the Obliterators. Then will have to mop up the Terminators, Princes and CSM.

Well, I possibly gonna try this. What list would you suggest? I'd take auto/las Predators instead of Vindicator here.

I would suggest my own list of course

but if you wish to replace Vindicators with auto/las Preds then that's cool.

**wuestenfux**

Hey Mercer, I guess that the list would look like this:

HQ

Librarian - shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Librarian - shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Honour Guard w/ Razorback - 2 x flamers - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun
Honour Guard w/ Razorback - 2 x meltaguns - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun

Elite

1 x Sanguinary Priest

Troops

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

Heavy Support

Vindicator
Vindicator

Total: 2,000

**JGrand**

HQ 1: Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission 155 pts
HQ 2: Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission 155 pts

Elite 1: 3 Chaos Terminators w/ 3x combi-meltagun 105 pts in Transport 1
Elite 2: 3 Chaos Terminators w/ 3x combi-meltagun 105 pts in Transport 2

Troop 1: 5 Chaos Space Marines 75 pts
Troop 2: 5 Chaos Space Marines 75 pts
Troop 3: 5 Chaos Space Marines w/ Flamer 80 pts in Transport 3

HS 1: 3 Obliterators 225 pts
HS 2: 2 Obliterators 150 pts
HS 3: 2 Obliterators 150 pts

Transport 1: Chaos Land Raider [Terminator Squad (Elite 1)] 220 pts
Transport 2: Chaos Land Raider [Terminator Squad (Elite 2)] 220 pts
Transport 3: Chaos Rhino [Chaos Space Marines Squad (Troop 3)] 35 pts

Total: 1750 pts

Wait...what is so good about this list again? You have 15 bodies in the troop section in an objective heavy game. That doesn't cut it. The list can put out a "scary" 11 lascannons per turn at 5 different targets, all for a low, low cost of 965 points....

This list suffers heavily from what I like to call "Land Raider Syndrome". Basically, can your opponent easily/reasonably kill Land Raiders; if so then loss. Is your opponent incapable/struggle with killing Land Raiders; if so then win. Color me unimpressed.

**wuestenfux**

Well, 3 small troop units in objective based missions can suffice. I agree that the number of lascannon shots is not really impressive. But if played right, it can win most of the games - at least, this is my impression.

ETC 2011: Game #2 USA’s Orks vs. Germany’s Chaos Space Marines -- Germans win 14-6

PLAYER: Shaun Kemp
ARMY DESCRIPTION: Orks

HQ: Big Mek (35), Kustom Force Field (50) [85]

ELITE 1: meganobz (40*3), combi-skorcha (5*2) [130] in transport 1
ELITE 2: meganobz (40*3), combi-skorcha (5*2) [130] in transport 2

TROOPS 1: ork boyz with choppa and slugga(6*18), nob upgrade (10), power klaw (25), boss pole (5) [148]
TROOPS 2: ork boyz with choppa and slugga(6*18), nob upgrade (10), power klaw (25), boss pole (5) [148]
TROOPS 3: ork boyz with choppa and slugga(6*18), nob upgrade (10), power klaw (25), boss pole (5) [148]
TROOPS 4: ork boyz with shootas (6*20), rokkits (10*2), nob upgrade (10), power klaw (25), boss pole (5) [180]
TROOPS 5 :gretchin (3*11), runtherd (10) [43]
TROOPS 6: gretchin (3*11), runtherd (10) [43]

FAST ATTACK 1: warbuggies (30*2), twin linked rokkit (5*2) [70]
FAST ATTACK 2: warbuggies (30*2), twin linked rokkit (5*2) [70]

HEAVY SUPPORT 1: battlewagon (90), big shoota (5) [95]
HEAVY SUPPORT 2: battlewagon (90), big shoota (5), deff rolla (20) [115]
HEAVY SUPPORT 3: battlewagon (90), big shoota (5), deff rolla (20) [115]

TRANSPORT 1: battlewagon (90), big shoota (5), deff rolla (20) elites 1 [115]
TRANSPORT 2: battlewagon (90), big shoota (5), deff rolla (20) elites 2 [115]

TOTAL: 1750

vs.

Player: Roland Zaglauer, vip-user (Captain)
ARMY DESCRIPTION : Chaos Space Marines

HQ 1: Daemon Prince (110)+ Wings (20)+ Mark of Slaanesh (5)+ Lash of Submission (20)= 155 pts
HQ 2: Daemon Prince (110)+ Wings (20)+ Mark of Slaanesh (5)+ Lash of Submission (20)= 155 pts

Elite 1: 3 Chaos Terminators (90) + 3x combi-meltagun (3×5) = 105 pts in Transport 1
Elite 2: 3 Chaos Terminators (90) + 3x combi-meltagun (3×5) = 105 pts in Transport 2

Troop 1: 5 Chaos Space Marines 75 pts
Troop 2: 5 Chaos Space Marines 75 pts
Troop 3: 5 Chaos Space Marines (75) + Flamer (5) = 80 pts in Transport 3

HS 1: 3 Obliterators 225 pts
HS 2: 2 Obliterators 150 pts
HS 3: 2 Obliterators 150 pts

Transport 1: Chaos Land Raider [Terminator Squad (Elite 1)] 220 pts
Transport 2: Chaos Land Raider [Terminator Squad (Elite 2)] 220 pts
Transport 3: Chaos Rhino [Chaos Space Marines Squad (Troop 3)] 35 pts

Total: 1750 pts

**mercer**

wuestenfux wrote:Hey Mercer, I guess that the list would look like this:

HQ

Librarian - shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Librarian - shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Honour Guard w/ Razorback - 2 x flamers - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun
Honour Guard w/ Razorback - 2 x meltaguns - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun

Elite

1 x Sanguinary Priest

Troops

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

Heavy Support

Vindicator
Vindicator

Total: 2,000

That's the one mate. I believe with a Vindicator swap for Preds the list will be 20 points down.

**extrenm(54)**

While that is no doubt a very good list, I think a Dark Lance Spam Dark Eldar List could really give it some trouble.

**wuestenfux**

extrenm(54) wrote:While that is no doubt a very good list, I think a Dark Lance Spam Dark Eldar List could really give it some trouble.

In fact, it can.

If DE goes first, the enemy will seek cover to minimize the incoming fire. This is hardly possible for the LRs unless there are some larger pieces of terrain. Two portals would be useful here as they could be deployed unhindered after disembarking from Raider moving 12''. Fast units like BMs should be able to tie up the annoying Oblits or DPs.
On the other hand, when CSM goes first, the enemy will try to down as many Raiders/Ravagers as possible. DE could stay in reserve but would then arrive in pieces.

**DarknessEternal**

wuestenfux wrote:DE could stay in reserve but would then arrive in pieces.

They're used to it. Doesn't stop them from executing their plans.