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Ok, so I've been working on 2 army lists for a while now (some of you reading this will probably have been giving advice), and I've reached 2 which I reckon could do quite well. Which is better and what further improvements could I make?
I've deliberately added terms that only people who understand tau will know about, so that I don't have idiots who think they're smart adding useless opinions which will get the army nowhere.

Army 1:
HQ:
Shas'el: Ion knife, TA, HW MT, GD-110
Shas'el: FK, TA, HW MT, GD-107

Elites:
3x 1 FK: TmLd, GD-207

Troops:
3x 6 FW-180
10 Kroot-70

Fast Attack:
2x 5 PF, 'Fish w/ DP-290

Heavy Support:
Railhead: BCs, MT, DP-165
2x 2 XV88: TA, TmLd w/ 2 GDs-370

Total: 1,499

Army 2:
HQ
Shas'el: AFP, CIB, TA, HW MT-100

Elites:
2x 1 FK-124

Troops:
3x 6 FW-180
'Fish: DP-85
10 Kroot-70

Fast Attack:
6 PF, 'Fish w/ DP-157
9 Stingwings-150

Heavy Support
3 XV88: BF, TmLd w/ BF,m DC w/ GD-462
3 XV88: BF, TmLd w/ BF,m DC w/ SD-467
Railhead: BCs, MT, DP-165

Total: 1,499

All Crisis squads are monats, for those confused by the numbering
And no, I don't want a mixture of the two. somone will probably suggest it anyway, which is why I won't read any of their posts. They're as similar as needs be anyway.

I said army one as Vespid Sting Wings just aren't competative.

I said army one as Vespid Sting Wings just aren't competative.

says the sniper drone. lol.
But seriously, 9 stingwings with 1 markerlight can take out 4 marines happily. That leaves me on average 2 markerlights to take out the rest of the squad. Enter the fireknives: aprox. 3 more dead with 1 markerlight each. Vespids charge: on average 1 dead marine. If I'm unlucky I get a sergeant who survives everything I throw at him, and have to take him down in his turn. Then I move on, do the same next turn. So long as they think that Vespid are useless, and thus make the simple error of leaving their stuff in the open, I take out a marine squad per turn.
What's more, after their first squad disappears in a puff of smoke, they spend tonnes of firepower shooting trees: the Vespid are skilled flyers and just fly in there, with none dying due to dangerous terrain. They probably spend 500pts on destroying one squad, meaning that I can get everything else in position to blast the enemy to smithereens.

Damn it man, you KEEP doing this people tell you something then you go on and on justifying how it's useful in that one specific situation... you ignore the fact that they have terrible range, cost 150 points to kill 4 marines then get killed AND they use up your valuable markerlights plus the fact that any player who knows anything will wait a bit while the vespid try to get into range then just use a tiny portion of their firepower to obliterate them. They don't have the range, they don't have the staying power, they aren't worth the cost

Edit: not to mention that 'nid, guard, ork etc. players would just be laughing at those Stingwings...

In all honesty I wouldn't play using either of your lists

I would have 3 elite choices with one xv-8 FK each in list 1.

Hytanthas, that's what I am doing: I just wrote it like that for a shorthand, then wrote the translation at the bottom (which you obviously didn't read).

Beregond wrote:Damn it man, you KEEP doing this people tell you something then you go on and on justifying how it's useful in that one specific situation... you ignore the fact that they have terrible range, cost 150 points to kill 4 marines then get killed AND they use up your valuable markerlights plus the fact that any player who knows anything will wait a bit while the vespid try to get into range then just use a tiny portion of their firepower to obliterate them. They don't have the range, they don't have the staying power, they aren't worth the cost

Edit: not to mention that 'nid, guard, ork etc. players would just be laughing at those Stingwings...

Ok, I accept your points, but Dark Eldar players commonly spend 125pts on a fragile little ravager that will on average do the same (4 dead marines) and be destroyed first turn before it gets in range of anything. Not to mention that it can't then choose to use up a little something to stop the marines saving 2 of those, and if the Vespid jump into cover it will take more points worth of firepower to bring them down than it would a ravager.
As for the valuable markerlights, I don't particularly like disembarking a squad of FW within 12" of a battleline, and otherwise the squad will get a max. 6 shots in total to improve with markerlights, compared to 9 from Vespid (even if only for one turn).
I know that anacdotes don't mean the same as math hammer in how true they are, but I had a squad of 6 helped with 1 markerlight take out 3 vanguard veterans then sacrifice themselves for another turn's pouring fire into them, saving my broadsides and FW from being destroyed in assault. Basically, they won me the game.

And yes, 'nid, guard and ork players laugh at a lot of stuff, especially when the only lists you see round the local GW is MEQ. I'd use a different list for tournaments.

p_gray99 wrote:Ok, I accept your points, but Dark Eldar players commonly spend 125pts on a fragile little ravager that will on average do the same (4 dead marines) and be destroyed first turn before it gets in range of anything.

What range do Ravagers have compared to Vespid?
What do Ravagers kill that Vespid do not?
What do Dark Eldar players take next to their Ravagers that Tau players cannot?
Stigwigs bring nothing to a list already full of S5 shooting. You kill Spae Marines by forcing them to make saves, not by taking a horrible unit, boosting it with marklights that should be used elsewhere, and then still only killing a combat squad.

Get rid of the acronyms and write the list out properly. It's not you trying to weed out the stupid, it's just being lazy.

Your first list is definitely the better one, but it still needs work. Why are you taking an extra Shas'el when a regular Shas'ui will be cheaper? What is that third Fire Warrior squad doing, and without a Devilfish? Do you really need a second Pathfinder squad at this points level?

I would drop the second Pathfinder unit (but give the Devilfish to the FW), drop the second Shas'el and drop the third unit of fire warriors. With the points leftover, boost your Crisis Suits up to atleast 2 models per unit.

unbeliever87 wrote:What range do Ravagers have compared to Vespid?
What do Ravagers kill that Vespid do not?

Firstly ravagers have 36" range compared to the Vespid 12" range which is a waste round my store, seeing as most stuff drop pods/deep strikes right next to an army . Secondly they kill very little that Vespid do not seeing as all terminators at my store have storm shields, leaving vespids killing a little less than I termy and the ravager killing a tiny bit more. And while a tactical squad firing into the back of a ravager will (if lucky ) bring it down or (if not so lucky ) at least take a few of it's weapons or immobilise it so they can kill it in assault, the same squad will only kill 3 Vespid in cover. And yes, I did use mathhammer. You get 2 glancing hits with +1 on the damage chart against the ravager. Check if you want.
Stingwings bring AP 3 to an army already full of S5 shooting, and a unit to die instead of my FW or FKs being charged.

unbeliever87 wrote:drop the third unit of fire warriors

unbeliever87 wrote:You kill Space Marines by forcing them to make saves

The third unit of FW stays in reserve then takes my home objective towards the end of the game. 60pts for an objective is pretty good.

unbeliever87 wrote:Why are you taking an extra Shas'el when a regular Shas'ui will be cheaper?

for 30pts +2 BS is pretty good, not to mention that monats mean I can split my fire and force the enemy to do the same.

unbeliever87 wrote:Do you really need a second Pathfinder squad at this points level?

now this one I'm open to suggestion on. I like my Suits and FW to stand a decent chance of hitting that all-important unit, but if you have a better suggestion for 60pts, I'd like to hear it.

Dude your doing it again. You asked for advice and we are giving it to you we are more experienced than you and know more. Vespid are NOT competative. and take out the 3rd fire warrior squad. If they have to come in from reserve to take an objective that you should already have then the enemy is there and will kill your warriors listen to what people say instead of being arrogant and ignorant.

I need to start checking OP's age before I respond to posts.

No, what you're saying is beyond stupid.

Tactical Marines rapid firing into the rear of Ravagers? It sounds like the people you play have the tactical acumen of a rock.

redkeyboard wrote:Dude your doing it again. You asked for advice and we are giving it to you we are more experienced than you and know more. Vespid are NOT competative. and take out the 3rd fire warrior squad. If they have to come in from reserve to take an objective that you should already have then the enemy is there and will kill your warriors listen to what people say instead of being arrogant and ignorant.

The third FW squad is advice from Beregond. I'm also explaining how Vespid could be competitive and you're ignoring me.

unbeliever87 wrote:Tactical Marines rapid firing into the rear of Ravagers

Ok, so the ravager is taken out by one of the many enemy lascannons. The vespids would still survive more because they aren't all taken out in the first shot of the game.
Anyway, didn't I say this before? it makes the statement a bit more understandable.

most stuff drop pods/deep strikes right next to an army .

And when I do say I'm open on a suggestion for the second pathfinder squad you ignore it. Nice.

Im done with this thread as you are not listining to reason you have given 1 example where vespid may stand a chance at being compatative. Think about what your say Ohh if I stick vespid in cover they get a 3+ save or whatever and then shoot down the enemy. But is your in cover 99% of the time you can't hit the enemy. E.g. So if Tac Marines are 24" away they shoot you in cover killing 3 Vespid as you said leaving you with 2 left to fly out ov cover and shoot them killing 0-2 marines. Then being in the open for an attack against them.

So long as they think that Vespid are useless, and thus make the simple error of leaving their stuff in the open, I take out a marine squad per turn.

The problem is, the example of you gave of Vespid being 'competitive' isn't even an example of them being competitive, it's an example of your opponents being dimwits.

Vespid survive more than a single turn because they're terrible, and way down on your opponents priority list. That doesn't make them good, that means they're bad.

To be truthful. Both of your lists blow hard a**. If you want real advice on Vespids go to Tau Tactica and watch them kindly berate your stupidity. Fireknife Elites are terrible and Markerlights in general are bad.

Wanna' know what also sucks in 5th ed. Broadsides. Broadsides deny the Tau army the necessary mobility that they usually have. The best Tau lists consist of FireKnife/Centurion HQs, 1 6man FW & Mass Kroot., Railheads ONLY, and Piranha FB squads.

(P.S. I won my 'Ardboyz Semis and Prelims with Tau list as above).

I don't know the first thing about Tau, but you're defeating the entire purpose of posting your army list by dismissing the advice given to you out-of-hand.

Also, lol Stingwings. Aren't they the unit that (next to the Ethereal) are universally mocked and reviled in the Tau codex? You know, the unit that you'd have to be a total dunce to even contemplate using if you want your list to be even remotely competitive?

unbeliever87 wrote:

So long as they think that Vespid are useless, and thus make the simple error of leaving their stuff in the open, I take out a marine squad per turn.

The problem is, the example of you gave of Vespid being 'competitive' isn't even an example of them being competitive, it's an example of your opponents being dimwits.

Vespid survive more than a single turn because they're terrible, and way down on your opponents priority list. That doesn't make them good, that means they're bad.

You would be surprised how many people ignore them and absorb the wounds dished out by them usually about 10 kills by end of game give or take. Mine usually last til end of the game due to cover and drawing them in while poking with suits and all the fancy assualt movers. I assume when people are talking competitive they are saying for tournaments and stuff and i wouldnt use them in one, but playing amongst friends I used them occasionally as playing the same list over and over is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY EXTREMELY BORING imo.

I really do hope they make vespid good someday.

Such a cool concept to have a Coalition of alien races, hopefully they will get justice.

Until then, don't use vespid, they have a worse statline then a guardsmen with good weapons. However, the price, the slot, and the other things to be bought in a Tau army don't allow the gross amount of points to get a minimal amount of results.