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So after taking a hiatus from my Chaos Space Marines to work on my crimson fists, I decided to return to them for an upcoming 1,750 tournament in december. The list I've put together has been nothing short of brutal, and as well it should be: I'm basically making the cheesiest chaos army possible at this point.
Testing has been a blast. Anything other than a perfectly optimized list from one of the most recent codices pretty much just folds to this, and at my LGS, I can't expect to see many of those. I think I have a pretty good shot at winning. Anyway, enough rambling. Here it is.
HQ -Daemon Prince (175 points)
Wings
Mark of Nurgle
Warptime
-Daemon Prince (175 points)
Wings
Mark of Nurgle
Warptime
-8x Khorne Berzerkers (248 points)
Champion with Power Fist
Rhino with Dozer Blades
Heavy Support
-Defiler (150 points)
2x Extra DCCW
-2x Obliterators (150 points)
-2x Obliterators (150 points)
Total- 1,748
So I've got another 5 point upgrade in there somewhere, maybe a Personal Icon on the Zerkers so I can deep strike the oblits in if I need to. The list suffers from a lack of long range firepower, as per the usual with the chaos dex, but not nearly as much as most lists. It has strong shooting elements (both at close range and long) and 4 balls-to-the-wall counter assault units in the form of the Zerkers, Princes, and defiler.
Thoughts? Suggestions? I wanna win this tournament.
Edit: Added Dozer Blades to the Berzerker Rhino
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/02 03:36:44
Looks solid. Would possibly consider dropping one of the plague marine squads and take a chosen squad with all meltas to outflank in their rhinos to put the crapper up the guard car park list which you'll still struggle with. I reckon Dark Eldar might give you a tough game too. But all in its one of the nastiest CSM lists i've seen for a while
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks solid. Would possibly consider dropping one of the plague marine squads and take a chosen squad with all meltas to outflank in their rhinos to put the crapper up the guard car park list which you'll still struggle with. I reckon Dark Eldar might give you a tough game too. But all in its one of the nastiest CSM lists i've seen for a while
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/21 20:51:27
Strike Force Serpentine: 3000
Kabal of the Annihilated Souls: 3000
Red Corsairs: 2500
Knights of Titan: 2000
Waagh Wazzdakka 2000
That's a damn solid list, my only concern being that it seems a little ill-equipped to handle hordes. But I suppose with the Deflier and oblits you shouldn't have too much of a problem blowing those out of the water.
I also agree with what Caranthir987 said about the chosen. Dropping one of the plasma squads for a set of chosen with meltas would go a long way in handling those pesky IG parking lots which can cause a lot of harm to your rhinos (goddamn manticores...)
I don't like the Defiler, why not drop him and just take 2 more oblitz, for more long range firepower? That lone Defiler is going to drop like an anvil parachute by turn one or two.
This is my Leman Russ. There are many out there like it, but this one is mine. Without it, I am useless. Without me, it is useless.
The defiler acts like a 3rd daemon prince. He's mobile with fleet, has alot of attacks, and has a really big gun. Plus, he'll be attracting the same type of firepower the princes do, furthering my opponents target priority issues. He works here because he doesnt get singled out. The chosen arent a bad idea, however. Ill give them a shot
I know this is a shameless bump, but I just wanted to give everyone an update on how this army has been testing. The last 5 points were taken up by Dozer Blades on the Berzerker rhino, bringing the total to a tidy 1,748 points. Here's my record with the list so far.
Imperial Guard: 4 wins, 1 loss
Dark Eldar: 1 win, 1 loss
Space Wolves: 2 wins, no losses
Blood Angels: 2 wins, no losses
Orks: 1 win (this was the big one)
The Ork list I faced was a tournament level Battlewagon army, but that wasn't the issue. The person piloting it is easily the best player at our LGS. He's won the last 2 1,750 tournaments easily, with this same ork list, and crushed the 'Ard Boyz prelims earlier this year. And I beat him in no small part thanks to this list. Try it, if you're a chaos fan and tired of all this counts-as crap.
Unfortunately, most of these are without the chosen. I dont currently have the models for it to be completely wysiwyg, and funds are a bit tight (just paid the rent). As for mech, plasma guns are actually every bit as effective as melta at taking out av10 to 11 vehicles, so once I'm within 12 inches I cam start popping transports in a hurry. The daemons also double as anti tank.
The space wolves list had 4 razorbacks with grey hunters, a thunderwolf deathstar, wolf lord, rune priest and 3 squads of long fangs. Dealing with the long fangs is just like dealing with lootas: they dont take casualties very well, and their firepower decreases with each dead marine. I use plasma/battle cannons in the first couple turns to kill off a couple guys from each unit to limit their effectiveness. 1 to 3 missile launchers a turn is alot less scary than 4 or 5, and if you force enough leadership tests, theyll fail eventually.
How did you handle the thunderwolf deathstar? I imagine that would have beat even your Khorne berserkers. Did you just ignore the runepriest?
Got a friend that plays a really similar space wolf list. And my list is similar to yours, but I have lost to him twice already. Key difference is that I have only 1 daemon prince, and I use regular 10 man CSM sqads with meltas compared to your 5 man plague marine squads with meltas.
What was the IG playing? I am impressed with your IG record as well. The IG guy at my local store plays with a horryfying 6 vendettas and 3 leman russ with plasma cannon loadout. There's a serious danger of being shot to pieces within the first two turns. How does this army handle super shooty armies? Just charge forward?
Does your defiler also charge forward or does it hang back to shoot its battle cannon. I got 2 defilers, and usually hang back to shoot.
Commissar Typhus wrote:I don't like the Defiler, why not drop him and just take 2 more oblitz, for more long range firepower? That lone Defiler is going to drop like an anvil parachute by turn one or two.
Pretty good piece of advice here. Defiler might be nice with the big pie plate, but like any other vehicle in this edition it can be popped too easily. As he says, it takes up an extremely valuable heavy slot that you can throw at some more oblits. Who have more fire power and dont die nearly as easy.
Eldenfirefly wrote:How did you handle the thunderwolf deathstar? I imagine that would have beat even your Khorne berserkers. Did you just ignore the runepriest?
Got a friend that plays a really similar space wolf list. And my list is similar to yours, but I have lost to him twice already. Key difference is that I have only 1 daemon prince, and I use regular 10 man CSM sqads with meltas compared to your 5 man plague marine squads with meltas.
What was the IG playing? I am impressed with your IG record as well. The IG guy at my local store plays with a horryfying 6 vendettas and 3 leman russ with plasma cannon loadout. There's a serious danger of being shot to pieces within the first two turns. How does this army handle super shooty armies? Just charge forward?
Does your defiler also charge forward or does it hang back to shoot its battle cannon. I got 2 defilers, and usually hang back to shoot.
The Wolfstars are pretty damn scary, but once you get past the "Oh my god that thing is going to eat my entire army" mental block and actually shoot at them a few dozen times, you realize they're far from invincible. My strategy is to plasma/melta them a few times in the early turns and then feed them a Plague Marine squad (most people take the bait), then counter assault with any combination of Berzerkers, the Defiler, or Daemon Prince. The last game I was able to rapid fire a couple Plasma guns into them, dealing a few wounds, then tarpit them before multi-assaulting with both Daemon Princes. One prince died, but the wolves were no more.
Having 2 princes is really a must. 1 is tough, but can be brought down by concentrated fire. 2 is very problematic, and creates target saturation, which is also why I run the Defiler with 4x DCCW over another pair of Obliterators. I am rarely disappointed by him, and my normal strategy is as follows: Move, shoot, move, shoot, move, fleet, assault (over the first 3 turns).
Also, I am an advocate of Plague Marines over Chaos Marines any day. Chaos Marines are on par with vanilla marines, and in my opinion, those suck.
As for the Oblits vs Defiler argument, in literally ANY OTHER LIST other than one with double Nurgle Daemon Princes, even one with lash princes or sorcerers, I would run the Oblits. But in this list, the Defiler is largely ignored, letting him blow squads off the table and punch holes in vehicles.
For the record, the Guard list I play against usually runs 3 standard LRBT, 4 melta vet squads in chimeras, 2 plasma CCS squads in chimeras, and a vet squad in a Vendetta. Pretty typical mech guard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/02 03:35:24
I have decided I am definitely getting a second daemon prince and damn what they say about being cheesy. Its allowed for chaos to have 2 HQ that are both daemon prince officially, and they are good so why should I short change myself!
But back to my question, so, how do you handle super shooty armies? Just mass charge forward and hope target satuation will work?
You have to keep in mind that this style of CSM army (one containing mostly plague marines as it's troops) is devastating at 12 inches, probably moreso than any other army out there. Plasma guns can rapid fire, dudes with melta guns can move (either on foot or in rhinos) and get the extra d6 armor penetration, and berzerkers can move in for the assault. Moreover, Daemon princes may now pick which direction to assault from, which comes in handy for picking out special characters in combat. Getting into the this magical promised land is half the battle.
I usually leap frog my rhinos/princes in order to get to the enemy. 3 rhinos drive forward and pop smoke, then the other 2 do the same on the next turn, creating cover for themselves and alternately eachother as the Oblits and Defiler blast away. If you are going second, try to deploy out of sight to conserve your transports. Within a couple of turns (or by turn 2, against a midfield army who is driving towards you) you'll be right where you need to be. Usually, against IG, I've been de-meched by the time I reach my enemies lines, but I'm still exactly where I need to be.
I will say that the Ork army you played was in fact cheese, and I will disagree with him being the best player(Just the one who spends the most time putting together broken lists lol)..I like the idea of this army list and I myself and interested in seeing what I can throw against this list come the tourney. Do I think i will win possibly not, but I do think you have a very good list and am excited to play. Very well done...I just think you may want to think about what you will do for Speedar cause they have always been a thorn in my side and we know for a fact they will be there.
Excuse my ignorance, but what makes this a great list? I just started playing, and I'm trying to learn CSM. Does this list counter the current meta well?
Unfortunately I wont have time to convert up 5 melta toting chosen before the tournament, but that's probably going to be the next thing I do for this army. Good news is, I only have 4 more models to paint and this army list is complete!
And did you mean I have a great argument for the Defiler?
This list is good because it answers all of the 5th edition threats, while presenting threats of it's own. It has pleanty of melta, a solid amount of long range firepower, answers to FNP bubbles, marines, terminators, and enough anti infantry capability to get by. It both shoots and assaults well, and (most importantly) fields a lot of units, with none of them being particularly "low priority".
I'm testing more on Wednesday, hopefully getting some games in against space wolves, and possibly necrons. I'll keep everyone updated, and thanks for the comments!
th3maninblak wrote:This list is good because it answers all of the 5th edition threats, while presenting threats of it's own. It has pleanty of melta, a solid amount of long range firepower, answers to FNP bubbles, marines, terminators, and enough anti infantry capability to get by. It both shoots and assaults well, and (most importantly) fields a lot of units, with none of them being particularly "low priority".
I'm testing more on Wednesday, hopefully getting some games in against space wolves, and possibly necrons. I'll keep everyone updated, and thanks for the comments!
I'm interested in seeing how the list works against Necrons, because one of my friends is going to start with them. I just started buying my army, and I'm looking for a list that will help guide my purchases. With CSM being so vanilla right now, this seems like it may be what I go for.
th3maninblak wrote:Unfortunately I wont have time to convert up 5 melta toting chosen before the tournament, but that's probably going to be the next thing I do for this army. Good news is, I only have 4 more models to paint and this army list is complete!
And did you mean I have a great argument for the Defiler?
This list is good because it answers all of the 5th edition threats, while presenting threats of it's own. It has pleanty of melta, a solid amount of long range firepower, answers to FNP bubbles, marines, terminators, and enough anti infantry capability to get by. It both shoots and assaults well, and (most importantly) fields a lot of units, with none of them being particularly "low priority".
I'm testing more on Wednesday, hopefully getting some games in against space wolves, and possibly necrons. I'll keep everyone updated, and thanks for the comments!
Great to hear that! I've actually been running a similar list for the past two weeks at the 2000 point level and it's been fantastic.Plasma Plague Marine rhinos have so much versatility and bersekers are just plain killy fun.
At the same time though, I do have some differences from your list though in that I drop the defiler, one squad of PMs, one Nurgle DP and a rhino in favor of a land raider for the berserkers (being able to assault out of that thing makes me smile), a lash sorcerer/prince (depends on the mood/army that I'm facing) and a squad of raptors with meltas. In my experience at least, with chosen outflanking and raptors doing their hit and run shenanigans, you can really break apart almost any parking lot or infantry line. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what could be done to accommodate them at a lower point value (since not everyone at my LGS plays at 2k, most tournies are 1850). I've been thinking of bikers instead of the chosen and the raptors, but I can't actually decide.
In any case, to come to a point, what have you been finding to be the fundamental weakness of your list? For me it's been armies like IG Vendetta/Valk spam even with raptors and Chosen evening the score against outflanking veterans, how exactly have you been handling these? Target Saturation only gets you so far (speaking from personal experience). I can also see crisis suit tau having a field day with the list though that's just me.
Spoiler:
Here's the track record (W/L/T) if you want to see it
IG (Vendetta/Valk Veteran Artillery-Based): 2-3-1: Probably the hardest list I've had to face, outflanking vendettas can REALLY ruin your day, as can manticores if you're not careful. I've tied a lot against this guy simply because of time and while I'm sure I can beat him, it always gets really close.
GK (Draigowing): 2-1-0: Another tough list, the oblits and raptors I have in my list have really been the key in keeping this list down. The record is deceptive, every game has been VERY close and I generally only win by a kill point or two. Still, I'm not the best commander out there and I know that he's a much better player than me (plays mechdar main and has been for years now) so I'm glad to be able to put the hurt on him.
SW (Longfangs/TWC): 0-0-1: We called it even on kill points at the end of turn 4 (I had to leave), but TWC Was really a huge pain in the gonads. Longfangs were even more of a pain, dropping two plasma rhinos to immobilized results and then his totally fair and balanced jaws of the wolf (goddamnoverpoweredstupidwhywasthisabilityeverinvented) managed to krib my DP, the other units were quick to respond. Once again, I love the chosen for this and the raptors and sorcerer for being that amazing force multiplier. The real hero though was the land raider and berserkers who tarpitted the TWC (the latter reducing them to a single man before they were finally taken out by a plasma canon). I can really see this list being one of the tougher ones to deal with out there though...
DE (sliscus venom/raider spam w/ blasterborn and wyches) 2-2-2: Early on I was killing this guy, then he figured out that melta was bad and decided to start playing it safe, we've been 1-1-2 since then and it's been getting tougher each game. Still, they've been fun games. Lances really cause a lot of trouble though and blasterborn murder tanks more quickly than anything short of vendettas and melta. Wyches also make berserkers cringe :3
Mechdar: 1-0-0: (not the draigowing dude): These guys toasted my land raider quickly (damn you lances). But the raptors and chosen quickly evened the score by taking out a Fire prism He plays with a lot of war walkers and wraithlords and the game we had was really back and forth for a turn or two but eventually I was able to come away with a clean win by turn four (the only squad that I lost were the chosen who were sadly destroyed by a vengeful wraithlord). I don't forsee too many issues with this list.
Orks: Battlewagon/Biker KOS: 1-0-0 Like you, I had fun almost toying with this guy. The nurgle prince was straight up unkillable (thanks to his biker boss being tied down) and Battlewagons folded insanely quickly to the plasma from the rhinos. He did manage to trample my chosen's rhino with a deffrolla (and the poor heretics inside subsequently died to burnas... so many dice!). I really feel that this is one of the easier lists I've had to deal with though, something like greed tide, as silly as it sounds, could probably give me some trouble (thank god for blight grenades...)
Vanilla Marines: 3-0-0: Against my roommate, who's not the best player out there and plays more for the fluff :3, but still, he's a competent commander in his own right.
Basically, my feeling, like you said, is that against most MEQ the list is solid and quite competitive, even against optimized lists like draigowing and sliscus. I do worry though, after having faced lists that incorporate units like TWC, how effective it will be against the *very* tough end of the spectrum and against pure hordes. Melta's and outflanking shenanigans have been my crutch against them thus far. I'd be very curious to see how this works against a newcron army (we don't have any serious newcrons in the area, the guy with the most has maybe 1200 pts atm =/).
Extreme mech saturation would have to be the biggest weakness of this list. A fully optimized guard or Blood Angels is hard to beat, especially the latter. 10+ vehicles with 5+ cover saves are a pain. As for lowering the point value to 1850 or 1750, dropping the land raider down to a rhino is recommended. Thats probably almost 500 points tied up into one unit, which works at 2k, but not below.
And Chaos is very vanilla right now. The codex is boring and bland, but still very powerful. Don't let the interwebz tell you otherwise.
Commissar Typhus wrote:I don't like the Defiler, why not drop him and just take 2 more oblitz, for more long range firepower? That lone Defiler is going to drop like an anvil parachute by turn one or two.
Personnlly I think you should stick with the defiler.
I like the defiler.. People dwell on the canon but they forget hes also a fleet dread lol have him run and shoot at stuff and who cares if they blow off the canon.. now hes assaulting you and rippin you to pieces. As far as the stated thing with the second daemon prince is cheese etc.. I'd blow that off. The "cheese" arguement is abused and is becoming a synonym for "waah*tear you beat me and in any other list dice roll whatever they had you BUT it must be that one thing." Their cheese is starting to mold their brain.
The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.
crash462 wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but what makes this a great list? I just started playing, and I'm trying to learn CSM. Does this list counter the current meta well?
The list is great because it pretty versatile and powerful without having to rely on any one deathstar or combo way to win. Each and every unit in the list is pretty dangerous in its own way, and he has 5 troops which count as scoring, which will be easily more than most 1750 armies. And objective games occur very freqeuntly. Even in a kill point game, his list will do well because plague marines are really really hard to kill. I had one case where my opponent, shot a ton of stuff at my plague marine squad (which was in cover), including lascannons shots and when the smoke cleared, one plague marine was still left standing, and since they are fearless, he remained on his objective and refused to run away! lol
I love Defilers and I love how he has managed to make them work in his list. His defiler is part of his target saturation, and advance with the rest of his army and if you ignore it, then by 3rd or 4th turn, it will get into combat and that thing has 2 close combat weapons added, so its going to be extremely nasty in combat. My defiler with a similar loadout has killed off entire squads, and stomped special charecters and HQs to death once it got into close combat.
The list isn't going to autowin the game for you, you still have to know how to play it, but I believe that it has the tools to stand up against most lists out there. More importantly, it doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, so there is limits to which an opponent can tailer his list against this list without making himself really vulnerable to some other type of horde list and such out there. I like this list because this is the kind of list that will give everyone you play with a good hard game without coming across as cheesy (unless they think 2 daemon prince is cheesy). At the end of the game, probably both sides would have a fair amount of casualties because this list likes to get up close and personal, but both sides would have had fun playing. You have a very decent chance (good if you are a good player) of winning with the list too!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/06 22:44:08
Out of curiosity, how do you think this list would work if it were foot khorne rather than bawks nurgle? Replace 5x PMs with plasma and a rhino with 8x berzerkers with a fist, MoN with MoKDP's, etc. It would have more models and more killing power at the cost of slightly less durability over all.
Depends on how many plague marine squads you are replacing with Khorne foot squads I guess. And I would still recommend putting them in a rhino though.
His whole army, by turn 2, latest turn 3 will be within melta/plaman gun/ daemon prince assault range.
If you run khorne berserkers on foot, they may lag behind the other guys. Plus they are in danger of being shot to pieces because they aren't protected from being in a Rhino.
Or something. 40 berzerkers running forward. Turn 2 the DPs hit and the obliterators deepstrike. Turn 3 the berzerkers hit, the other obliterators arrive, and the first obliterators shoot and charge. Everything in close combat for the rest of the game.
Certainly the khorne models by themselves aren't as durable, and without the free KP wrapper for a turn, but there are more of them, and berzerkers do more damage per model, so they can get away with having slightly fewer surviving models.
I mean, I've got to think that if this list works, a khorne variation could as well. Still don't know about the defiler, though.
5,000
Strike Force Serpentine: 3000
Kabal of the Annihilated Souls: 3000
Red Corsairs: 2500
Knights of Titan: 2000
Waagh Wazzdakka 2000
Black Legion - 6300 pts
Kult of Speed - 1850 pts 
2500
3000 
He plays with a lot of war walkers and wraithlords and the game we had was really back and forth for a turn or two but eventually I was able to come away with a clean win by turn four (the only squad that I lost were the chosen who were sadly destroyed by a vengeful wraithlord). I don't forsee too many issues with this list.
