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I hate making a thread like this. I play warhammer for fun with my friends, but this is just getting out of hand. I have a friend who plays nearly the same Ork list every game...and he wins 90% of the time (against multiple people, not just me). He's a good friend, but his win ratio has led him to believe that he's just massively better than everyone else at the game. It's a little annoying (and it's led me to believe that half of the Ork codex is broken ...even though I know that's probably not true).

I'm not looking to humiliate him or beat him every game or power-game in order to win. I'd just like to win occasionally. Here's roughly the list he plays:

Warboss with Mega Armor and PK
Big Mek with KFF

20 Boyz with a Nob, PK and Bosspole
9 Nobz with different equipment for wound allocation, a Painboy, the 5++ upgrade, 2 Power Klaws, Waagh banner, bosspole, etc
5 Meganobz
20 Gretchin

12+ Lootas
12+ Lootas

3 Killa Kans all with Grotzookas
3 Killa Kans all with Grotzookas
3 Battlewagons with Deff Rollas and Red Paint (2 dedicated transports)

Turn 1, I have to deal with AV 14 and KFF (4+ cover). I rarely manage to do anything, obviously. Turn 2, he charges with everything...because Orks have a 21"-27" charge range . The Nob squad is basically a massive (scoring) deathstar unit. They beat anything in CC and can easily survive most shooting. The Lootas always hide in cover on his table edge and don't move all game. The Gretchin sit on an objective and go to ground if they're shot at (yay 3++ for 3 point model). The 6 Killa Kans are always in KFF, along with the 3 Battlewagons. He does this by putting everything really close together.

Every games usually goes the same. Turn 2, he gets a charge with his Nobz and Meganobz. There's no way I can avoid this - I've positioned behind cover, as far back as possible; doesn't work. His Nobz and Meganobz destroy the crap out of something. I spend a turn trying to deal with the Nobz/Meganobz, usually with little effect. Then on turn 3, his 6 dreadnoughts and Boyz squad arrive to clean up. Even if I managed to deal with everything, I would still have to run across the battlefield (while getting shot by 24+ Lootas) and charge his Gretchin to move them off an objective.

Of course, I'm slightly exaggerating for some of this. I usually manage to deal with 1 or 2 Killa Kans, and sometimes I can kill 3 or 4 Lootas. But those kills don't really mean anything. 8 Lootas or 2 Killa Kans is still enough to do massive damage.

I currently have Tau and I'm going to be starting Tyranids. I technically have Space Wolves, but I'm getting rid of them. So anyway, any ideas or suggestions for dealing with this list? Certain things I should be taking? Certain strategies I should be using? Thanks in advance!

First thing need to ask is about how many points is this?

Ive played against orks only a few times, but ive played against tau alot. And i know that what im about to say is probly gonna be pooh poohed but pffft. it needs to be said b4 the hardcore tau players get here.

Tau firewarriors are vastly underrated. And in this case so is the pulse carbine. With it, you can pin fealess units. Thus his lootas, nobs, ork boys warboss, ect become alot less scarey when they cant do anything. After youve got the squad pinned pop a submunition round into them, that should either wipe them out completely or give you the chance to follow up

Siphen wrote:Warboss with Mega Armor and PK
Big Mek with KFF

20 Boyz with a Nob, PK and Bosspole
9 Nobz with different equipment for wound allocation, a Painboy, the 5++ upgrade, 2 Power Klaws, Waagh banner, bosspole, etc
5 Meganobz
20 Gretchin

12+ Lootas
12+ Lootas

3 Killa Kans all with Grotzookas
3 Killa Kans all with Grotzookas
3 Battlewagons with Deff Rollas and Red Paint (2 dedicated transports)

Ok, with tau use at least two squads of two broadsides, with team leaders with target locks so you can take out the battlewagons as early as if physically possible. With space wolves, use longfangs for the same thing. With tyranids, use big monsters to charge him when he's reached you, and keep out of LoS of the lootas.
The broadsides/longfangs then want to kill the killa kans. Bring loads (and I mean loads of plasma weapons for the meganobz and then turn them on the normal nobz. Use loads of units all spaced out so he charges on, destroyes it in one turn, then gets shot to pieces. Infantry want to keep in transport unless doing loads of shooting.

Other than that, outflanking assaulty stuff (kroot or scouts) should be used to keep the lootas tied up while you slowly obliterate the rest of his army. Fire warriors should only be taken in small quantities, and used as a distraction wherever necessary.
Also, a hammerhead with railgun is great for orks. You only need one, but with burst cannons, multi-tracker and disruption pods, it's a hell of a killer for only 165pts.


What are the points? I could probably post a reasonable army list for destroying this list (I've beaten similar before), is it around 1500pts? Also, what models do you have?

ASSAULT HIS ASS!!!

No seriously here's my two cents as an ork player. It's a pretty hard list he's got going for him, now i don't know how good he is at list building but tht looks awfully close to something tourney players would bring.

If you are going with tyranids i would go for some carnies, don't shout or laugh now, adrenalin glands and go put them behind something and then counter charge his nobz, trust me he will not like it. Genestealers should also ruin his day, but be careful about charging into cover, i have wiped stalers with nobz in cover despite the fact that the stealers got the charge no grenades hurts.

For tau and such, you need to move around and focus fire his ass. +1 for the above statements from the other tau players (kudos guys)

Basically get him to footslug it, take out the battle wagons that you don't want to come close first and the remove lootas second. Just keep the pressure up. You could look into some suicide suits with flamers, then it's byebye lootas.
If you mech up and keep it that way you have nothing to fear from the killa kans as they are slow and their guns won't do much against tau, just move around and he will never catch you.

The last thing is to watch out for that waagh turn, it catches some peaople off guard every time so always factor in about thre extra inches for your space between him and you.

I think you should be able to win aginst him, but it is a dead 'ard list his rocking with the absolute best from the ork dex, fact the only thing that could make it better was if he included buggies or koptaz.
Anyway i've rambled long enough good luck and let us know how it goes.

Sorry, I forgot to mention. This is a 2000 point list. It's very similar at 1500 though.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic. Hammerheads with Railguns are good, but Lootas just wreck it. He manages to blow off the gun in 1 round of shooting, every game. Likewise, the Broadsides are good. But since they're so immobile, they get charged and wiped out on turn 2 or 3.

Pulse carbines can't pin fearless units - it's a normal pinning weapon. Even if they could, the main problem is getting the shots through. Everything in the army is sitting inside a KFF battlewagon until it's charging.

Loads of expendable units sounds good in theory. He kills one and then gets shot to bits. There are just two problems. I can't shoot enough to bring them down entirely. Even if only 3 or 4 Nobz survive, that's enough to kill anything in the army. Not to mention that my entire army shooting can't bring down the Nobz squad in one round. The other problem is that Orks can flood the field with bodies. If I'm playing "loads of units all spaced out", his Boyz squad can multi-charge 2 or even 3 units and wipe them all out.

The only models that I don't have are the obscure ones that rarely see any play. No Vespids. No Pyrovores, etc.

Edit: I feel like a jerk now. I forgot to thank you all for your suggestions. I appreciate the help

I am an Ork player and last couple of weeks i played a couple of battles against tau.

Broadsides will do it for ya. Seeing what the ork player brings to the table, id say at least 4 broadsides. They can hit real hard, problem is, not so mobile so place them on points with a good line of sight.

Another, my buddy used a squad of 3 crisis battle suits. 1 was his commander, BS 5. Put some missle pods on them. I believe those are strength 7 or 8 assault 2. With those you can decimate his kans and if they survive that they can help bringing down those Battle wagons. Ups for these is their high mobility! Jump infantry =]

Despite what people say, i find fire warriors quite effective, if placed on a good spot. It usualy takes my buddy 2 rounds to thin out my 20 boy squad till its no longer effective. Downside, boomgun/killkanon and its likes will route them ez.

Just faced a similar list yesterday & lost, but it came down to the wire. And I have a friend who regularly plays a similar list which I confess I usually struggle with also. But here's what I have had success at:

If the Ork player runs a KFF, then start your army either split into two sides of your deployment zone or move that way each turn. Then his KFF will have to go after one flank so you can have better chances shooting up the other wing. With hammerheads you have the mobility & range to then go after the other wing. And I think Tau have war gear that makes their broadsides relentless so that should also help.

Secondly, I believe your marker lights have some sort of way to ignore cover saves which might help you out versus his KFF.

I also think Tau vehicles have a KFF-like upgrade that gives you a cover save from anything that shoots from more than 12 inches away.

Lootas & gretchen: Try outflanking kroot.

Big Nob squad: I have really struggled against these guys. The only success i had was to assault them (I don't play Tau) and kill off half their squad so they could not regroup. The chances of that were low, but watching that massive points unit of Warboss, pain boy & tons of war gear fall back does warm the heart.

Manuevering: Try to move in such a way that when he chases after you with the battlewagons, he gets jammed up behind the walkers. That is tough, but even once per game will help. Or vice versa, immobilizing or wrecking the BW will cause some dangerous terrain checks.

Lootas should also be blocked with this bait trick; get him to move the BWs in front of the lootas so they can't see.

Objective placement: If you play the 3+ objective mission, I found one trick that works against armies that have strong troops choices. Place one objective in the middle of the board and load up all others on one flank. Realize both players place objectives so this is dependent on what your opponent does. Then as the game progresses, swing your fast components (skimmers etc.) to the opposite flank. This will force him to chase after you, leaving the objectives unclaimed because his troops are the units that need to do most of the heavy lifting. Then either hope to claim just the one objective in the middle of the board or keep one troops choice in reserve & come on from your board edge for late game claiming.

Granted this tactic will have some troubles if he is running two units of gretchin, but try it & let us know.

Ever heared of something known as a Fireknife? A crisis suit with Plasma Rifle, Missile pods and multi-tracker? If I were you, I'd use 2 squads of 3 against this army, with one squad of Firestorms (Missile Pods and Burst cannons, with multi-tracker). Missile pods into his rear armour will utterly destroy any tanks he has, and that many shots will easily get some past his cover save.
Once these have blown up / immobilised / wrecked his battlewagons, swing round with your hammerheads with railguns that have been waiting behind LoS-blocking terrain, and then charge with the kroot afterwards. Even use fish of war in your attack: anything that could work!
Once again, outflanking kroot will deal with the lootas, and gretchin only need to be worried about in turns 4-7. Use a few broadsides (perhaps a squad of two, with two railheads) to SMS his arse, blow up his tanks, and be a generall nusance until assaulted, waisting one of his turns. Look at stuff one at a time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, pretty much making this list up on the spot:
HQ
Shas'el, CIB, AFP, TA, multi-tracker, 100

Elites
3 Firestorms, including team leader with 2 shield drones: 185
3 Fireknives, team leader with 2 shield drones: 221
3 Fireknives, team leader and drones: 221

Troops
10 Kroot and 12 Hounds: 142
10 Kroot and 11 Hounds: 136
6 Fire Warriors in Devilfish with DP: 145

Fast Attack
Pirhanna with DP, Flechette Discharger and Fusion Blaster: 80
Pirhanna with same upgrades: 80
Pirhanna: 80

Heavy Support
3 Broadsides with TA, team leader with 2 shield drones and h-w target lock: 280
Hammerhead, Railgun, Burst Cannons, DP, multi-tracker: 165
Hammerhead, same upgrades: 165

Total: exactly 2000

pinning tests force a leadership check

fearless automatically passes morale. they are two completely different things... so ah yes carbines can pin fearless

p_gray has some great advice, but I think you're leaving one very important thing out.

Markerlights.

Markerlights are the BANE of my existence every time I go up against my friend's Tau. A couple Markerlight hits are all it takes to make my KFF basically NOT EXIST. I don't have experience building Tau lists, so I can't give you the kind of detailed list that p_gray just did. I think that he's right on the money with Hammerheads and Broadsides. I'm not so sure about the Piranhas. The Crisis Suits are definitely great. Flamethrowers don't allow cover saves... so KFF doesn't matter at all. The only problem is that won't help you much against the Nobz or the MegaNobz since they'll have a 5++ and a 2+ respectively. Templates are still the way to go though.

I would use Kroot as a shield against the Battlewagons and the Deffrollas.

Again though... Markerlights. Once you blow up a Battlewagon, a combination of a swarm of Fire Warriors with the help of some Markerlights will utterly annihilate the Orks. Your challenge is to whittle them down enough before they get to charge you. When they get close to charging you... MOVE! Use your Devilfish and Crisis Suits' superior mobility and get out of the way. Make him split up his forces by sending one Devilfish in one direction and another somewhere else, etc.

I will finalize this by saying that I think Orks are a VERY tough match for the Tau, even if the Orks aren't using an especially strong list, and this is a pretty strong list. You do have a pretty hefty challenge in front of you.

You're right, but the first line in the rulebook says "Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests they are required to take". page 75

Do Kroot have frag grenades? If not, they won't really work on the Lootas. Even Lootas have 2 attacks base for some reason, so he would wipe out most of the Kroot before they attacked. Plus, he might not position them close to the table edge (meaning the Kroot couldn't reach him). Plus, outflanking is never really reliable. If they come in on turn 4, the Lootas have already killed 4 things.

I should give a little more information. His Lootas are always deployed in a building, on the upper two levels. Blast (and even flame) templates don't work very well, and even if you're right at the bottom of the building, you have to roll a 3+ with difficult terrain to assault. But we don't use the building rules for that, so I can't do anything about the actual terrain. This also means that it's near impossible to block LoS to something as big as a Hammerhead.

I like that list but without markerlights, I'll never scratch his battlewagons. 3+ to hit, 4+ to glance, 4+ forcefield, then I have to get a 5+ on the damage chart because his vehicles can easily fix immobilized results. Even a railgun has less than a 10% chance to stop a battlewagon.

Tau vehicles do have Disruption Pods (a weaker version of KFF), but Lootas ignore that through sheer numbers. Disruption pods can't deal with 4 glancing and 2 penetrating hits all at once (his average roll).

Lootas are insane, but they're not the only problem. 3 Fireknives will manage to deal a whopping 2-3 wounds to his Nob squad. 12 Fire warriors in rapid fire range will deal 1-2 wounds, at best. I have to deal 18 wounds. It would basically take my entire army 2-3 turns to kill that one unit, if they could kill them at all (remember that I can't start shooting at them until the Nobz have already killed something).

Then there's the 6 Killa Kans. The only effective thing against them is Railguns. Missile Pods have less than a 5% to destroy one. Fusion blasters are decent, but if they're in melta-range, that means I'm about to lose a large unit of Crisis suits.

I don't mean to put down all your suggestions - I really do appreciate it. I'm just trying to express my frustration. It honestly feels like there's nothing that will work.

Edit: Any suggestions from a Tyranid perspective?

I play Eldar, but I can still say that Pirhannas (and Eldar Vypers) can do a lot to slow him down significantly.

if you turbo boost a skimmer in front of his Battle Wagons, he won't be able to get a 2nd turn charge. If you dodge his ram (3+ on skimmers) his deff rolla doesn't go off. And his wagon stops dead in its tracks.

Sure his lootas will probably blow your skimmer sky high, but shooting phase comes after the movement phase, so he'll either have to go all the way around your skimmer, or try to ram through it in which case he has a 2/3 chance of not moving at all.

Basically you are sacrificing an 80 point skimmer to hold up over 400+ points of ork phalanx for a turn. If you sacrifice your Pirhannas one at a time, you can probably turn a 2nd turn charge into a 4th turn charge, and have your orc opponent frustrated beyond belief !! The more turns hes slowed up, the more turns hes eating long range fire power!

Drop your Pirhana ships for Pathfinders with Markerlights. 5 man squads. Deploy to the outsides with them to plan for his initial advance. Allow him to move up into your 36" range, then light him up and toast him with relentless broadside teams.

Leave a decoy squad in the center near an objective to bait him... Then deepstrike your TL plasma suits behind his lines focus firing on those 2+ saves. Use your devilfish from the Pathfinders to tank shock his troops when you make them break. Always put the 4+ cover save and flechette charges on ur devilfish. And always move them more than 6 in. It's a nasty surprise when they all get wounded on a 4+ on assault AND they need 6 to hit your transports back.

Outflanking Kroot for lootas obviously or... Mark em up and then blast them with burst cannons and drones from the devisfish.


Just some nasty tactics my Tau room mate uses to great success against

Like it was said above, by splitting your units out to the sides.. you will force him to split his forces.

Your pathfinders will probably die by turn 3, but by that time all battlewagons and nobz should be dead.

As an Ork player, I have won and lost against many non-assault armies, and what I have found to be the biggest game changer is number of shots, specifically Nob Instant Kill S8shots. Yes, S10 is awesome, but I would take as many S8 shooters as I could, and use mobility and volume of fire on the Battlewagon side armour, AV12. 1 S8 shot will be worth 2 S6 AP4 shots against 4+ Nobz, even with their 5++. Eldar Scatter Lazers and Missle Launchers grate my army like cheeze. As for the Lootaz, pie plate or volume of fire. Also, study the Ork Codex and Tactica. Know what he knows, know what he can do, and figure out how to counter it.

List is dead 'ard in ork terms, the way you wan't to deal with it are deepstriking suits which eat up those nasty loota's, when his support fire is gone you will have far more space for other tactical advantages. like shooting the crap out of its rear 10? real awesome as the only shooty stuff sits behind and by then should be kille with flamer suits. also focus on the mek, no matter where he might be, focus on that thing. (I geuss he's in a battlewagon?) blow it up get him out of there and get his ass under fire, once gone no more cover stuff. yeah they might have some really awesome close combat abilities and with tau, you just need to get away from them. Suits my friend alot of suits... that's what you need and equipe them for the job.

I would go for kroot spam, and have a massive wall of kroot to bubble wrap everything. Lots of pirhanas aswell, so you can slow up the battlewagons and deal with them when you feel like it. Then several sizable units of broadsides, with the team leader upgrade that lets them split fire. Last but not least, fireknives and firestorms.

So you are going to run up the pirhanas into the battlewagons to slow them up, going one squad at a time, just like akeaen describes, to halt his huge convoy of doom, while each of your three squads of broadsides pour fire into each battlewagon, except for the team leader, who takes a potshot at the kans. Your firestorms harass lootas, and your fireknives kill off kans untill the nobs fall out and start slayin'.

The kroot act as a fun little meatshield to slow down the tide, and perhaps get off a rapid fire. Your singular firewarrior squad sits on an objective with a marker light to make someones job easier. They take a cheap-ass devilfish that can go join the piranhas in slowing down the convoy.

You may even want to grab some krootox(hear me out here) for your kroot. They arn't infiltrating anyway, and you need all the anti-tank you can get. It won't hurt the wagons front armour, but it can kill kans, and it really isn't that hard to get a side shot on a battlewagon. When they close in, it can even rapidfire!

2 squads of 2 Broadsides with Shield Drones and advanced stabalization, should take care of any armor 11 vehicles. You can clear squads off the table with just them.

A single hammer head allows you to use a pie plate at ap4 and can do woders for blasing orkzies off the table.

Suits should almost always be running in the opposite direction if possible, try to sweep a flank and move around him.

Pathfinders allow for teams to kill many, many models and they greatly reduce the luck factor in 40k.

InquisitorMack wrote:Just faced a similar list yesterday & lost, but it came down to the wire. And I have a friend who regularly plays a similar list which I confess I usually struggle with also. But here's what I have had success at:

If the Ork player runs a KFF, then start your army either split into two sides of your deployment zone or move that way each turn. Then his KFF will have to go after one flank so you can have better chances shooting up the other wing. With hammerheads you have the mobility & range to then go after the other wing. And I think Tau have war gear that makes their broadsides relentless so that should also help.

While I might not be an expert on fighting Tau, any ork player even worth two teef will never, ever split his force. What he will do is use the entire army to crush one side, reembark, and then go for the other side. While that one side will have some firepower left, you now need to deal with an entire army with just half your force. To me, an opponent splitting his force is basically setting himself up to get tabled. You best bet against that amount of nobz is using a bubble wrap to prevent them hurting your broadsides and vehicles. Nobz are great at killing about anything in close combat, but they can only kill one unit you're careful. A great tutorial to bubble wrapping can be found here.

Agreed with Jidmah, I dont EVER split my forces, unless its a crazy match rule that says I have too. Infact, thats how I start with my trukk spam, Id just haul ass to one side of your army, and unload. Its incredibly difficult to turn the tide against an entire army of Orks when you only have half or less of your forces left.

Jidmah wrote:You best bet against that amount of nobz is using a bubble wrap to prevent them hurting your broadsides and vehicles.

The Ork player is running 3 Battlewagons with Deff Rollas and a KFF. The Tau player must stop/destroy these vehicles before they get close enough to dump their infantry even close to his lines. We're talking Turn 1 dead, Turn 2 IF the Tau player goes first. Bubblewraping his vehicles with Infantry on foot will not stop Tank Shocking vehicles. They pass through the infantry as if they weren't there. There is no 1" of protection. Even if 3 Broadsides all hit a BW, the KFF will reduce that to 3 S10 hits, 1.5 pens, .75 rolls on the Damage Table and 13/24 chance ~ 54% to Immobilize or Destroy. How much do 3 Broadsides cost? 300 points? for a 54% chance to stop one BW. 900 points to stop one or two. I still say mobile S8 spam on the AV12 side armour, or even the front armour. That is what wrecks my BWs, and then IKs my Nobz. Mobility to get into firing position and mobility to avoid CC. NOT Bubblewraping.

If your bubble wrap is done correctly, there is no room for any orks to disembark, tank shock or not. It's not like those infantry models disappear into thin air, and even 10 nobz need quite some space, while staying 1" away from all enemies, including the unit that was just tank shocked. If the imperial guard can do it, Tau should be able to, too.

Jidmah wrote:If your bubble wrap is done correctly, there is no room for any orks to disembark, tank shock or not.

You are assuming the Orks need to disembark to destroy a Vehicle or Troops. If they ram a Vehicle, that is D6 S10 hits. If Ramming a Skimmer, it does have a 67% chance to dodge the Deff Rolla, but a Boarding Plank ensures that the Nob swinging 4 S9 attacks will get to assault the Skimmer no matter what the Orks inside shot at. And after D6 S10 attacks and shooting Scorchas and Shootas at the infantry unit they just passed through, there will probably be plenty of room for the Orks to Disembark. My whole point is that by the time the BWs are within Tank Shock and Ramming range of Hammerheads and Broadsides, even if the Tau Wreck or Destroy them, it is too late as the Embarked Orks are close enough to do their job. The Tau have to stop them before they cross the table, and then pepper them as they walk across. My proposal is S8 volume of fire. I do not think Bubblewrapping will work as effectively, but Siphen should try it both ways and see if either way works for him.

Thanks again for all the helpful suggestions. I have a bunch of stuff to try. Unfortunately, Ghenghis Jon, Tau don't really have any Str 8 fire. There's fusion blasters (meltaguns) and that's about it. Our missiles are only str 7. That's part of why Nobz are so hard to kill. Only railguns and fusion blasters can instagib them...and if it's a meltagun, I'm close enough to get charged next turn.

Do Tyranids have an easier matchup? What could I do with them?

If you're fighting orks with tyranids keep in mind that tyranids have a higher initiative than orks and often have higher armour saves. Use that to your advantage. Use MCs for popping vehicles. A PK in the wrong place at the wrong time can do horrible things to the biggest beast you've got and if I was playing tyranids with my orks I'd make sure I had PK's in as many places as I could.

I don't see how much good pathfinders will do when compared to pirhannas. Pretty much a maximum of however many FW squads you have, seeing as they need a devilfish, and 4 Markerlight hits (the average) from the full squad of 8 before being easily destroyed by a rampaging ork horde will do less than holding up a battlewagon for one turn and having a chance of around 1 in 10 (even including the cover save) of destroying it, not to mention it has special upgrades meaning stuff hurts itself it charging in. If they get a pen then it's 3+ to wreck (unless they have the 'ard case), and I'm happy with that chance for an 80pts unit to do this, especially as 3 will be particularly annoying for most enemies.
Have less kroot and more of something else if you want, although that's a fairly full list. I simply think that this list is most likely to do some damage (kroot will be slowly beaten by the lootas, but that many should prove to be a decent distraction).

Siphen wrote:Thanks again for all the helpful suggestions. I have a bunch of stuff to try. Unfortunately, Ghenghis Jon, Tau don't really have any Str 8 fire. There's fusion blasters (meltaguns) and that's about it. Our missiles are only str 7. That's part of why Nobz are so hard to kill. Only railguns and fusion blasters can instagib them...and if it's a meltagun, I'm close enough to get charged next turn.

Do Tyranids have an easier matchup? What could I do with them?

Therein lies your problem really. Killing the Battlewagons isn't really the main issue, it's that you have a tough time dealing with the stuff inside. Going against a Tau with this list, what would scare me would be:

- At least one unit of Pathfinders to Markerlight the Battlewagon with the KFF
- 2 units of 2 Broadsides
- 1 Hammerhead with that railgun
- 2 units of Crisis Suits with Shield Drones
- 2 units of Firewarriors in Devilfish
- Some Kroot to act as human shields

Turn 1 light up the KFF Battlewagon with the Pathfinders and use the Broadsides and the Hammerhead to bring it down. Put your Firewarriors in the Devilfish and get in a good flanking position.
Turn 2 rinse and repeat on the remaining Battlewagons. Use crisis suits to start firing at the occupants. Use your firewarriors to bait something to come after them, and away from your lines.
Turn 3 hopefully your Broadsides and Hammerhead can start working on the Killa Kans and not Battlewagons. Your Kroot may be dying to the Nobz this turn, but you hopefully can focus fire on them with two squads of Fire Warriors and your Crisis Suits
Turn 4 Hopefully you're still alive. Play tag with your Crisis Suits, don't let him get in assault range. If you have Fire Warriors left, use them as best you can. Your Broadsides might have one more turn of firing before they get assaulted by the MegaNobz or the Nobz.

Like I said earlier, Orks are a hard match for the Tau. Like you said, you need more S8 weapons than you have, and your heavy shooters (I forget what they're called) are too short range.

ALSO you asked about Tyranids.

I play a Kan Wall Ork army and it's extremely difficult for my Tyranid playing friend to deal with it. On objective based-games he can sometimes get a "tie" just because he has so many more Troops choices than I do. Tyranids just have a really rough time dealing with 9 Kans, 2 Dreads, and 5 Buggies. That's a lot of vehicles.

However, let's talk about your friend's Battlewagon list against Tyranids.

Just about any Monstrous Creature and even a Genestealer can kill a Battlewagon. The Deffrolla really doesn't matter that much either, since you get your 3+ armor saves on your Monstrous Creatures against it. What will happen is that your Trygon or Hive Tyrant will get Deffrolled, and most likely survive. Then you'll be shot and assaulted by the Nobz. With the numbers that your friend is throwing at you, you will likely kill 2-3 Nobz (which might be enough to wipe out the Mega Nobz but not anything else) and the multiple Power Klaw attacks will then kill whatever Monstrous Creature it was, a Tervigon, Trygon or Hive Tyrant. Then, you are free to shoot and assault those Nobz with Termigaunts with poisoned 4+ weapons, which will likely wipe them out.

Mega Nobz won't likely do much to you. Yeah, it's a LOT of Power Klaw attacks, but they have NO invulnverable save. A Monstrous Creature will make quick work of them.

Nobz will hurt your Monstrous creatures. Termigaunts with 4+ poison weapons and Genestealers will rip them to pieces for a lot less points though. The challenge is GETTING the Gaunts or Genestealers to assault in the first place. Hive Guard will destroy Nobz in shooting with instant-death attacks, though you have to contend with the invulnerable save.

Battlewagons are bad, but not horrible. As I said earlier you get armor saves against those Deffrolls. Your best way of stopping one is by assaulting it. Zoanthropes aren't reliable enough for you with a Psychic Test, Roll to Hit, and then a KFF Save involved. Hive Guard will work if you can get side armor hits in.

Lootas aren't a huge concern and are vulnerable to Biovores, outflanking Hormagaunts / Genestealers, and Trygons popping up right next to them. You will get armor saves against their attacks for all your Monstrous Creatures. It will take many rounds of sustained fire for Lootas to bring down a Tyrant or a Trygon or Tervigon.

Killa Kans die to Hive Guard, but you have to deal with that pesky KFF save.

Tyranic Marta wrote:pinning tests force a leadership check

fearless automatically passes morale. they are two completely different things... so ah yes carbines can pin fearless

Siphen wrote:You're right, but the first line in the rulebook says "Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests they are required to take". page 75

Fearless troops don't give a damn

I miss my daemons

CuddlySquig wrote:If you're fighting orks with tyranids keep in mind that tyranids have a higher initiative than orks and often have higher armour saves. Use that to your advantage. Use MCs for popping vehicles. A PK in the wrong place at the wrong time can do horrible things to the biggest beast you've got and if I was playing tyranids with my orks I'd make sure I had PK's in as many places as I could.

Thats what I do. If someone is facing me, they are going to eat a PK AND a rokkit from everywhere.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Jidmah wrote:If your bubble wrap is done correctly, there is no room for any orks to disembark, tank shock or not.

You are assuming the Orks need to disembark to destroy a Vehicle or Troops. If they ram a Vehicle, that is D6 S10 hits. If Ramming a Skimmer, it does have a 67% chance to dodge the Deff Rolla, but a Boarding Plank ensures that the Nob swinging 4 S9 attacks will get to assault the Skimmer no matter what the Orks inside shot at.

One nob attacking is way better than a unit of nobz attacking. That, and you can't plank broadsides. Not to mention that Hammerheads are AV13 and broadsides have a 2+ armor. Even if the deff rolla connects, you are by no means guaranteed a destroyed vehicle/dead broadsides.

And after D6 S10 attacks and shooting Scorchas and Shootas at the infantry unit they just passed through, there will probably be plenty of room for the Orks to Disembark.

Yep, then there is room to disembark. To disembark next turn. Once you start shooting anything, no more disembarking. That's the whole point of a bubblewrap, to delay your opponent. During your turn, you can move away, to the sides and back of those BW and then blow them up. If the ork player was smart he disembarked some boyz to slaughter the bubble wrap at most.

My whole point is that by the time the BWs are within Tank Shock and Ramming range of Hammerheads and Broadsides, even if the Tau Wreck or Destroy them, it is too late as the Embarked Orks are close enough to do their job. The Tau have to stop them before they cross the table,

Unless they are fielding a manta, probably impossible. On average I lose one battlewagon before I smash into any given army, even if they tailor against me. Even nine broadsides fully supported by marker lights will have trouble to stop all four weagon.

and then pepper them as they walk across. My proposal is S8 volume of fire. I do not think Bubblewrapping will work as effectively, but Siphen should try it both ways and see if either way works for him.

Other than one-shot seeker missiles and railguns there are no S8+ weapons in the tau codex, other than melta.

One anoying (but expensive) strategy a friend of mine uses is infitrating Shadowsun somewhere near my battlewagons and then trying to melta two of them at once.

Try all sorts of Tau tactics. Chances are that either one will work, or it's pretty much impossible for tau to win.
I expect that if there is a way to win, however, it will be found on www.advancedtautactica.com