Can Anrakyr use Mind-in-the-Machine while one a CCB?

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**loreweaver**

Given the latest FAQ, can Anrakyr still use his ability? It does require line-of-sight, but the CCB is an open-topped vehicle.

---

Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire
points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special
rules or wargear (other than shooting)? (p66)
A: No.

**DeathReaper**

Since it requires LoS and if the FaQ you posted is correct, then you can not use it while embarked.

**Mannahnin**

Nope. The Open-Topped vehicle rules only give permission to "fire" out of the vehicle.

The Fire Points rules gave permission to fire or use a psychic power from a fire point, but that's now been restricted by the brand-new FAQ to just shooting.

**puma713**

To expound upon what DR is getting at, is that Open-Topped vehicles still have Fire Points through which you must draw LoS, just not specific Fire Points.

**loreweaver**

I can manage that, I think. Just means that I'll mind-in-the-machine less, or not move flat-out as much with the CCB.

I don't have my BRB in front of me, can you embark and disembark on the same turn? (I'm guessing no)

**Mannahnin**

No, sadly. Yeah, this does make Anrakyr significantly less awesome. I'd say easily half the Necron players at Conflict this weekend were using this combo.

**Lehnsherr**

I'd say it makes Anrakyr almost entirely useless. There is nothing he can do that a regular Overlord can't, for cheaper.

You could always run him outside a CCB, but that doesn't seem too great.

**bagtagger**

but is an open topped vehicle a firepoint? Just because you can shoot out of it doesn't mean it's a fire point

**loreweaver**

He still does the surfboard lord trick, although for 65 points more.

He still has tactical options for that 65 points, including upgrading a unit of immortals to be more tar-pitty. When his barge gets popped, he can still Mind-in-the-Machine. You can always hop him out for a spell too (drive over something, moving only 12", hop out, Mind-in-the-Machine, Tachyon Arrow, hop back in next turn).

I agree though, for competitive lists, I'll be re-thinking his inclusion, and likely going for the Surfboard Lord.

**pretre**

bagtagger wrote:but is an open topped vehicle a firepoint? Just because you can shoot out of it doesn't mean it's a fire point

Open-topped do not have FP, instead the passengers may fire, measuring range and los from the hull. Same thing basically.

**puma713**

bagtagger wrote:but is an open topped vehicle a firepoint? Just because you can shoot out of it doesn't mean it's a fire point

For the vehicle to function within the ruleset, your passengers need to fire from a firepoint, even though it looks like the entire vehicle is a firepoint.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:
bagtagger wrote:but is an open topped vehicle a firepoint? Just because you can shoot out of it doesn't mean it's a fire point

Open-topped do not have FP, instead the passengers may fire, measuring range and los from the hull. Same thing basically.

I have to agree with Don Mondo from the rumor thread:

don_mondo wrote:

Don't have specific fire points. They just use the entire hull as a fire point. But it's still a fire point, or they are unable to shoot at all..................

**bagtagger**

just because the definitiions are the same doesn't mean they are the same. Take eldar dire swords and ID they do the same thing but EW does not grant protection from the dire sword because the dire sword does not say it causes ID. It does not say that open topped means it has one big fire point. therefore it's not a fire point.

**Mannahnin**

pretre wrote:
bagtagger wrote:but is an open topped vehicle a firepoint? Just because you can shoot out of it doesn't mean it's a fire point

Open-topped do not have FP, instead the passengers may fire, measuring range and los from the hull. Same thing basically.

This can go either way; O-T says they have no "specific" fire point, which may be meant to mean they still use the Fire Point rules, but they just aren't limited in number. The Fire Point rules being the part of the vehicle rules which actually talks in any detail about shooting out/grants permission to do so. Some folks read the O-T rules as granting independent permission, but I think it's debatable.

Doesn't matter either way for this question, though.

**puma713**

From one of the other threads about this issue:

Lehnsherr wrote:What they are saying is that outside of the"Fire Points" section of the rulebook, you have no permission to use anything while embarked on a vehicle.

The Fire Points section gives you permission to shoot while embarked.

Then you look up "Open Topped" to determine how that specific rule interacts with "Fire Points" in order to be able to even fire to begin with.

The Open Topped section says to measure from the hull, as there are no "specific fire points" on an open topped vehicle.

In order to fire though, you still draw permission from the "Fire Points" section of the book, and according to the new FAQ which specifically mentions "Fire Points" Anrakyr can no longer use his ability while embarked on the CCB.

QFT.

**bagtagger**

So does that include a KFF or Hood/Runic weapon?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll answer this myself it only applies to los so KFF and Hoods still work fine from vehicles

**pretre**

bagtagger wrote:So does that include a KFF or Hood/Runic weapon?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll answer this myself it only applies to los so KFF and Hoods still work fine from vehicles

Exactly.

**Gavin Thorne**

I don't believe a KFF requires LOS.

**Thanatos_elNyx**

I don't believe there are any Open Topped Vehicles that have fire points. So technically the BRB change has no effect on them.
That being said, I suspect that this ruling was specifically written to nerf Anrakyr (Tzeentch knows why he wasn't exactly OP).

**SoulGazer**

That... makes me sad. Was he really so powerful that he warranted a nerf? Guess I'll be going with Zandrekh/Obyron now.

Although... I guess if you just threw Anrakyr in a Nightscythe with a squad of Immortals and then dropped them into the middle of a battle, it might still work. Eh, but still, he's no longer the Necron Surfboard Champ.

**copper.talos**

There are 2 kinds of transports regarding how passengers draw LoS. Transports with fire points and open topped. If this faq was to affect both cases then it would have simply said that passengers may not use non shooting abilities that require LoS. No need to further elaborate and specifically mention the fire points.

**puma713**

copper.talos wrote:There are 2 kinds of transports regarding how passengers draw LoS. Transports with fire points and open topped. If this faq was to affect both cases then it would have simply said that passengers may not use non shooting abilities that require LoS. No need to further elaborate and specifically mention the fire points.

You mention fire points because all LOS-drawing rules depend on Fire Points to work. Just because you know how to draw LOS and fire from an open-topped vehicle, doesn't mean the open-topped vehicles shooting rules aren't reliant on the Fire Point rules to function.

The Fire Point rules are what give embarked passengers the right to fire. Then open-topped rules explain how they work in conjunction with the Fire Point rules. See Lehsnerr's (sp?) post above for a concise definition of how this works.

**copper.talos**

I am saying that since it mentions specifically fire points it affects transports with fire points. If it were to affect ALL transports then there would be no need to specify fire points at all.

**puma713**

copper.talos wrote:I am saying that since it mentions specifically fire points it affects transports with fire points. If it were to affect ALL transports then there would be no need to specify fire points at all.

All transports have fire points defined. To talk about transports is to talk about "transports with fire points". Some may have zero fire points, but even that is defined in their entry. An Eldar wave Serpent, for example, has Fire Points: None in its entry.

I am not around my library of codices right now, but what do Dark Eldar Raiders say for Fire Points? Or the CCB?

**copper.talos**

How can you use a non existant fire point? Can I use a non existant access point too and disembark from the front of a wave serpent?

The faq talks about fire points. You have to use a fire points for the faq's ruling to be valid. Vehicles with no fire points are not affected by this faq.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
How can you use a non existant fire point? Can I use a non existant access point too and disembark from the front of a wave serpent?

The faq talks about fire points. You have to use a fire points for the faq's ruling to be valid. Vehicles with no fire points are not affected by this faq.

**puma713**

copper.talos wrote:How can you use a non existant fire point? Can I use a non existant access point too and disembark from the front of a wave serpent?

The faq talks about fire points. You have to use a fire points for the faq's ruling to be valid. Vehicles with no fire points are not affected by this faq.

Right, which are tanks with no transport capacity. Any transport will have a 'Fire Points' entry, even if it is 0. That means a FAQ talking about fire points is talking about all transports, since all transports have fire points, even if the fire point entry is 0.

It's sort of like Ballistic Skill. A model may have a Ballistic Skill of 0. It doesn't mean that the model doesn't have a Baliistic Skill. 0 is the value.

**nosferatu1001**

Good job open topped vehicles do still have fire points then

**Thanatos_elNyx**

puma713 wrote:Any transport will have a 'Fire Points' entry, even if it is 0..

puma713 wrote:I am not around my library of codices right now, but what do Dark Eldar Raiders say for Fire Points? Or the CCB?

I have both the DE and Necron books in front of me and none of the Open Topped Transports mention Fire Points, even to say Fire Points: 0 or None.
And the Nightscythe does mention Fire Points so its not an oversight.

**puma713**

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:
puma713 wrote:Any transport will have a 'Fire Points' entry, even if it is 0..

puma713 wrote:I am not around my library of codices right now, but what do Dark Eldar Raiders say for Fire Points? Or the CCB?

I have both the DE and Necron books in front of me and none of the Open Topped Transports mention Fire Points, even to say Fire Points: 0 or None.

Hm. I'll have to check it out when I get home. It may not matter to the big picture - just that when a FAQ references a vehicle with a fire point, they are referencing all transports, not just "transports with fire points".

**copper.talos**

I confirm Thanatos_elNyx. Open topped transports do not mention at all "firepoints".

And in any case, when a faq affects all transports, it is worded to affect all transports. Not transports with firepoints...

**puma713**

copper.talos wrote:I confirm Thanatos_elNyx. Open topped transports do not mention at all "firepoints".

And in any case, when a faq affects all transports, it is worded to affect all transports. Not transports with firepoints...

You're misquoting the FAQ. It references 'a vehicle' - that would be any vehicle. May a model embarked upon a vehicle use its fire points to draw LOS?

If you're discussing vehicles that don't have firepoints, then the discussion is moot anyway. All the rules for Open-Topped say is that the vehicles don't have "specific" fire points, but that they draw LOS from the hull of the vehicle. That is to say the hull of the vehicle is the fire point. Why would that sentence need to be so clarified? Why mention fire points at all if they had no bearing on the Open-Topped rules?