DangerousBeans wrote:Thank you so much Orlanth for your in depth critique. I'll definitely take some of these considerations to heart. The main reason I chose lore of life was the ability to bring my own forces back to life. High magic is good, but I really only like Drain Magic and Vaul's Unmaking. Flames of the Phoenix has never given me any luck. I typically get more kills from Fury of Khaine unfortunately.
Flames of the Phoenix will gain you more as unit sizes increase. If we count the difference between S3 or S4 is a factor of 2:3, I will not quantify statistics further but its broadly true. So 2d3 S4 is worth
3d6 S3. Thats average 11 hits S3. I will now up that to 'average' 15 S3 hits is worth
2d6 S4. That is an obvious overestimate but am playing generous for a point. Most units are 25+, and the larger the better. Flames of the Phoenix is clearly the superior spell. However there are two other reason to take this spell.
First as it gets better as enemy units get larger, as above but the main benefit of this the larger the unit the more of a threat it is due to steadfast. Steadfast is your number one enemy Flames of the Phoenix and attack all in the units spells like Dwellers Below are the prime solution. Of these spells Flames of the Phoenix is by far the cheapest, has decent range and for the next reason is the best.
Secondly Flames of the Phoenix gets better, if active it hits the following turn on S4 then S5 and so on. Naturally this is a death sentence even at S4 and cannot be relied upon to come off.
So make sure you never do. Instead rely on the fact that to reliably beat 11+ casting value for remains in play an opponent will need three power dice, if the unit is important it will be safer to use four. These are power dice not dispel, we assume you already had the spell off in your turn. Can an army affrod to lose three of four power dice in its turn, only if they are Dwarfs, and as Dwarfs cost as much as Elves do you wont need to worry about cheap steadfast. Every other army is hammer by Flames, it is out and out the best attack spell in the game and only the Asur get to cast it. Flames of the Phoenix, never leave Ulthuan without it.
DangerousBeans wrote:The reason I chose the Sword Masters over Lions or Phoenix Guard is simply that I don't have lion or guard models. :( I personally would love at least 30 of each in my collection but I can't even think of anything I could use for a "counts as" and not sure if my tournament organizer would allow it anyway. May I ask what is so great about the Ironcurse Icon? A 6+ save against war machine attacks just doesn't seem all that great. I would even rather give him the Skeinsliver for the bonus to go first.
Use what you have. Got to accept that. Swordmasters are decent, I like them but with universal
ASF their main advantage is gone. historically striking in initiative order with great weapons was their special ability, it was their and their alone.
ASF wasnt around then, later when
ASF came into play and became an army rule there was no distinction between Swordmasters and White lions except that White Lions has S6 and better secondary rules, so Swordmasters were compensated with an extra attack. All wellso far, but 8th means supporting attacks and unless you are an ogre or equivalent you only get one, so Swordmasters attack with 3xS5 against 2xS6 per file, which closes the gap again. Overall you end up with better mileage from White Lions because the balance of saves is better, missile saves are worth more than combat saves, attacking first at high strength weapons with rerolls to hit is you primary 'save' in melee, and stubborn is a clincher.
You are no fool for taking Swordmasters, but do understand they have been eclipsed in 8th.
Ironcurse Icon is easy to understand when you consider that it costs one third of a Swordmaster, so if it saves one Swordmaster from a mortar hit its paid for itself three times over. 6+ ward saves stack up to actually have value with regards to units hit by area effect weapons. Mortars cause a lot of S3 hits, if one hits twelve elves with a solid hit (not unlikely) you can effect to lose half of those six one will live from the Ironcurse Icon (ignoring your armour saves for now). Item paid for.
the other reason its good, in fact the real reason is because a successful ward save will stop cold penetrating shot. So if say a bolt thrower hits your unit and you are lucky and the first elf saves on a 6+ all the other attacks are stopped, there is no penetration and noone else has to take a hit. Again that is an immediate dividend.
On aside 8th has done High Elf elite champions a favour, there are a number of low cost items that are worth equipping a champion. Not many people yet realise that a High Elf unit champion can suddenly cause Terror with the
Terrifying Mask or take a sacrificial challenge against a hero and win, think about a Swordmaster of Dragon Prince champion with Potion of Strength in a challenge. Three attacks hitting first (likely) rerolling to hit at 3+ with S8, you have a character killer ambush right there hidden in plain sight. Finally
Ruby Ring of Ruin normally a questionable hero choice item because heroes need other things becomes something you can find 25pts of item slot available from a High Elf elite unit champion. Now this is of course vulnerable, the enemy will quickly know you have it and get it off you by killing a single one wound T3 model but might it be worth it to draw out dispel dice and get the odd attack in. Its also a ranged means of dealing with ethereal creatures the enemy has inconveniently placed out of reach of your unit with Amulet of Light. If facing such creatures save it until the second turn when the opponent thinks he has the measure of all your magic output and uses all dispel dice on what he can see then hit the Banshee of whatever with a a fireball from the front rank of a characterless unit. After that of course its just a one dispel dice drain item but Versatility is the key and 25pts that you dont have to account from character allocation to suck up one dispel dice a turn is probably worth it
IMHO.
DangerousBeans wrote:How many great eagles would you recommend? I figure 2 or 3 max but after that I would think I'd run out of uses for them. Only so many war machines and mages to hunt down before you are shot down. As far as my RBT, for me at least one is a must have. Once in a tournament with only one, I managed to kill a Chaos Lord on steed of slaanesh, 2 Giants, and a Dragon Mage. Pretty worth it for 100 points I would say.
I killed 700pts of Khorne daemon army with one cannon once. First shot obliterated a daemon prince of Khorne, two more killed a unit of bloodcrushers etc. An example doesnt make for anything other than an anecdote. allowing for what other races pay and for what an
RBT is worth about 75pts and needs a sweetener on top. I think it should be fast enough to be allowed stand and shoot charge reaction, that plus a discount would be fair, especially as its now just two elves to kill for those points.
Eagles march block, eagles cannon hunt and Eagles stomp. Allowing for what they are fighting the extra attack is a nice boost, the victim gets to swing first, but as that normally a wizard of artillerist big deal. Saying that if your deploymant offers you nothing and you see no avenues of attack throw them into an ongoing melee from the front, clipping the enemy to get some extra attacks in, including the stomp. With 8th being bigger it costs a lot to add a file of combatants into a unit, for 50pts you can add an extra 'file' with 3x S4 attacks to join in, if the unit has done its job with
ASF the eagle shouldnt suffer much return hits. Now this is far from ideal, but it is a default standback position, now a singlwe file from a five rank unit if 75pts of elite 45pts of spearelves, using an eagle to artificially widen the unit is not that far off the curve. However do remember that in 8th if the enemy does break and run eagles are no longer the units to run them down being M2!
Now thats the fallback position, the principle use of eagles is very different you need two, one on each flank to go around the flanks and disrupt march moves or hunt artillery or even just be a tempting threatening target for said artillery. Should you be able to threaten a cannon it might fire at your eagle, better it bites the shot than your infantry.
Yes two are enough, one per flank is a nuisance and a nuisance is all they need to be. However two per flank is a threat and thats still cheap. I consider two eagles is standard, but I have four and often consider four. An eaglwe will tie up a warmachine two will get the job done and move on or take one ofr the team and still be a nuisance. 1o0pts or 200pts investment, both make sense but do take eagles.
DangerousBeans wrote:I agree with you about the archers, but if I drop them to bulk the spearmen I would be afraid of having too few units. Without Lions or Guard I would need to throw points into cavalry and they've let me down almost every time in 8th so far. I guess you just need far too much patience than I have to use them effectively. All I can ever think about is CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGE!
I agree with having too few units, but that is the High Elf curse in 8th, contrary to popular opinion you can, sort of,
MSU yourHigh Elves still so long as you run your
MSU units as akin to Empire detachments supporting large blocks of infantry normally spearelves. With the changes to the shooting rules Sea Guard are also worth considering as a block unit because you nail in melee combat and nail with arrows too, they are pricey though I would prefer a horde spearelf block of 50 with a 'detachment' of Swordmasters to flank charge and add to the casualty rate enough to kill steadfast. You don't need to go that far though if you cannot afford, however 50 spearelves plus 25pt banner is 500pts and that makes list building easy, High Elves need to spend minimum core to allow for special, having two spearelf units will not make either big enough to clobber steadfast opponents and non Spearelf core are plain inefficient.
Because of
ASF and spears you dont need to charge except to deny a charge,
tmarichards wrote:If you're after a really nasty High Elf build, I think Shadow magic and Book of Hoeth really tops the bunch. Go with a whole load of 10s of archers, a bigger unit with the flaming banner, a couple of small (14 or so Swordmasters) and some Phoenix Guard. A couple of eagles and bolt throwers, and the job's a good'un.
That would work as a viable build as would the
OP, but not for tournament play. Small pickets of archers run at 115pts (assuming a musician) thats a lot to give away for a trickly of low strength attacks. You need to play the points denial game which you cannot do while offering a victory point buffet with half the army.
If you do get Okkams Mindrazor off with your Book Archmage you can do a lot of damage, but that is best achieved with a spearelf horde. However Okkams Mindrazor is not really a High Elf spell, yes
Ld ratings are gereat but High Elves dont have problems with generating high strength attacks and the differences between S9 Phoenix Guard and S7 Empire Swordsmen is largely academic, most stuff is dying on a 2+ either way.
Still it does open up real possibilities for a sperarelf block, especially a horde, however an archmage is not the way to go about it. Instead take a lord general give him dragon armour etc, Radiant Gem, Seerstaff and Guardian Phoenix, if leading the spearelves give him two hand weapons (not strictly recommended as we will see). Bide your time then pop the spell paid for with about six or seven dice. Your general will feel the pain, possible a corner of the unit will also suffer including the enedmy in base contact though but then its time to strike first with five magical attacks rerolling hits on 3+ at S10, with fifty or so S8 spearelf attacks hitting on, say, 4+ because you are hitting something tough and experienced. Thats enough potential damage to make even Khorne wince.
You see Okkams Mindrazor best works with other armies with cheaper wizards and cheaper horde units, but only high elves can guarantee the spell, on a level one, who also happens to be a fighting character. The Radiant Gem and Seerstaff combo can be used with other spells but none quite match Shadows.
Shadows however doesn't belong on a Mage, not unless you are sick of Light, High and Life, the three lores you should concentrate on. The principle reason is because Shadows is a hex based lore and High Elves do not combine as well with hexes as other armies, they make better use of augment spells. I will explain this with a simplified example:
Assuming a section of a battle involves an elite army with one wizard and one unit, this faces a horde army of two units and a wizard. We will for sake of argument ignore all other factors. A horde army will want hex spells because they benefit by hexcing the elite one unit thus cursing 'all' the opponents army. The elite army would prefer augment spells as it can bless 'all' of its own army. To do the opposite in each case would only effect 'half' the army. Now this should be taken figuratiely of course, but the principle is true enough. With High Elves outnumbered who to hex? Better instead to augment from among your own troops rather than make harder choices picking the proper target.
Now there are more than just horrid curses, you get two high powered attack spells and admittedly they are good but...
Pit of Shades scatters a lot for its size and costs a lot to cast. Sure if offers DOOM!! but thats of lobsided benefit against some armies. More so the pendulum "Yo-Yo of Ogre Slaying", but the S10 multiple wounds has a double negative, first your opponent must fail an initiative save then not watch you get a 2+. In both cases Skaven and Elves of all stripes laugh it off. Lizardmen and Orcs aren't happy. Both spells really hurt ogres bad though.
All in all Shadows is a badly thought out lore, almost as bad as Metal, some spells are useless against some armies and devastating against others, there is no middle ground. To choose either lore before knowing what your opponent is playing is too risky, to choose afterwards if unfair. I'm facing ogres, so I'm taking Shadows.
3000
4000 Deamons - Mainly a fantasy army now.
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