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Looking for balance feedback on this; Throwing together a fluff army for a novel-based army friendly tournament. If you've read god's demon, or are familiar with the relative powers of the hosts of biblical angels and demons, your aid would be appreciated. I'm pulling heavily from God's Demon, here.

Demons of the Burning Hells

Yea, though thou shalt walk through the valley of the shadow of death, will thou fear no evil, for I am with thee.

Once every ten-thousand millenia, a host of Demons, banished from Heaven during the Burning War for their allegiance with Lucifer, are deemed worthy of repentance - they rise from the fiery depths they have made their home, and once more show the Mortal Realms the true meaning of War, for it was through war their exile was made necessary, and it is through war they shall earn either the truthful peace of death, or their rightful place in Heaven's glorious halls.

Known once as Seraphim, the Demons Majour - led by lost Lucifer himself - are now few and slowly dwindling. Each host raised from the burning deep is led by one such penitent Demon Majour - be he mournful of his lost glory, or simply tired of the endless ash and brimstone, HE above chooses one from the remnants, to lead his courts back to Grace.

Sigilry and the Arts Martial
Demons are modular, primeval spirits, existing, in some way or another, wholly physically. All of a Demon's knowledge and all of who he is and what he stands for can be found etched into his shifting form, burning sigils ever-shifting. A Demon's life-story, from HIS creation of the Demon, to what the Demon is thinking or has seen and heard and smelled. The essence of a Demon - those things it feels important enough to incorporate into its heart - is also that Demon's power.

On the field of battle, the Arts Martial are at the fore of each Demon's forms - each one a slight adaption from HIS granted knowledge. Skin and bone shift and knit into impenetrable armour. Flame and smoke bellow, obscuring forms. Arms and wings end in razor and sickle blades, or great spiked clubs.

Perhaps most importantly, those Demons that fall in battle are not lost - their heart's essence, should it survive, is incorporated into the one who finds it - be they friend or foe.

An Infernal Armoury
Not all of a Demon's powers come from his Essence - many come from the Demons' mastery over those Damned souls that flow into the Hells. Arriving in a river of boiling blood, tortured and mutilated, these souls stand ever at the infernal biddings of their Demon overlords. And perhaps the most interesting property of a soul is its mutability. From ponderous War-Mounts to weaponry, even building materials, the Souls of the Damned are used in almost all aspects of Demonic society.

Army-wide Special Rules

Heart's Essence: When a Demon is killed, it leaves behind a sigil embodying who it was, and incorporating many of its powers and perhaps even its grim determination to live - even through another. A single friendly model in base contact with a Demon as it dies regains a single lost wound. If there are no friendly models in base contact with a Demon as it dies, place a small, suitable token where it died - the first model that moves, or ends its movement, within 1" of this token may regain a single lost wound.

Demonic Body: As long as a Demon has all of its wounds, no single attack can remove more than 1 of its wounds, and any "Instant Death" attacks instead remove 1 wound.

Arts Martial: Demons' close combat attacks always Hit and Wound on 3+ - for better or worse. Against vehicles, their close-combat attacks always Hit and Glance on 4+, for better or worse. Demons never reroll any rolls, for better or worse.


Demon Majour
A Demonic War-Host is always led by its most powerful members - the charismatic, cunning, and frighteningly intelligent fallen Seraphim. Noble even in the shattered wrecks that now pass for their bodies, they grasp at their chance for redemption with a desperation unmatched by mortal souls.

Unit: Demon Majour
Model: Demon Majour
Points: 300
Models: 1
Unit Type: Jump Infantry (Character, Monstrous Creature)

Demon Majour: WS: 7 BS: 4 S: 7 T: 7 W: 4 I: 7 A: 4 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+

A Demon Majour is an HQ choice for a Demons army.

Wargear: A Demon Majour must choose either a Soul-Whip, a Soul-Bow, or a pair of Hellforged Swords. He may purchase any of the remaining at 50 points a piece. A Demon Majour may ride a Soul-Steed for 100 points.

Soul-Whip: Composed of the stretched, tortured souls of a thousand dead, a Soul-Whip channels and multiplies its wielders' emotions into a powerful psychic and physical attack. A Soul-Whip is a power weapon that causes instant death.

Hellforged Swords: Painstakingly mined from the very bones of Hell, Hellforged Swords are two close-combat weapons that count as power weapons, and grant an extra attack to the wielder.

Soul-Bow: A Soul-Bow is a horrible creature, its grotesque matched only by its ammunition. A dozen, dozen souls, each forcefully rammed into the one below it to form the shaft, which is strung with their own intestines. Arrows built from the lashed arms and heads of the bow's souls are launched, the animated limbs tearing at the Demon's target when they arrive. A Soul-Bow fires with the following profile:
Range: 24" S: X AP: X Special: Assault 1, Pinning
X: A Soul-Bow always wounds on a 3+, and armour saves are reduced or improved to 5+ against wounds from a Soul-Bow.

Soul-Steed: Crafted from the amalgamated souls of great Kings and Emperors, these cruelly ironic beasts of burden sport massive, powerful limbs, terrible claws, and gaping, poisonous maws. Their heads adorned with scores of crowns, their skin a hodge-podge of stitched finery and marvelous cloaks, their claws and teeth of the finest swords. Models with Soul-Steeds may move as Cavalry in addition to their other unit types, gain +1 Toughness, +1 Wounds, and +1 Attacks.

Special Rules: Deepstrike, Eternal Warrior, Independent Character



Demons Noble: Though changed by the fall, and their many millenia in servitude to one master or another, these Demons still retain their individuality. Distinguished individuals, some accomplishing what even a Demon Majour might find difficult, they have in their own way earned the right to be at the head of the host.

Unit: Demons Noble
Model: Demon Noble
Price: 100
Models: 1
Unit Type: Jump Infantry (Character)

Demon Noble: WS: 6 BS: 4 S: 6 T: 6 W: 3 I: 5 A: 3 Ld: 9 Sv: 3+

Demons Noble are Elites choices for a Demons Army. Up to 3 Demons Noble may be taken as a single Elites Choice, though they may be deployed separately and count as separate units. If so, no other Demons Noble may be purchased.

Wargear: A Demon Noble may purchase a Soul-Whip for 25 Points, or a Soul-Bow for 25 Points, or a pair of Hellforged Blades for 25 Points. He may purchase a Soul-Steed for 75 points.

Special Rules: Deepstrike, Independent Character, Specialty

Specialty: Choose one of the following bonuses before mission is rolled.

Wanderer: You may increase or decrease the result of the dice roll for Mission Type by 1.

Politician: You may increase or decrease the result of the dice roll for Deployment Type by 1.

Observant: You may increase or decrease the number of objectives on the table by 1.

Militant: A Demons Noble militant grants you a killpoint if it is alive at the end of the game, and does not count as a killpoint if your opponent destroys it.



Demons: The footsoldiers, the rank-and-file, those whose essences are but pale mirrors of whichever master they've sworn fealty to. Though they may seem as varied as humanity, their underlying psyches are much more similar than any two newborn's brains - their actions are merely alien to us, their behavioural patterns much harder to relate to or rationalize.

Unit: Demons
Model: Demon
Price: 90
Models: 3
Unit Type: Jump Infantry

Demon: WS: 3 BS: 4 S: 5 T: 5 W: 2 I: 3 A: 2 Ld: 8 Sv: 3+

A Demon is a Troops Choice for a Demon Army. Up to 3 Demons may join a unit of Demons for 30 points per model.

Wargear: In each unit of Demons, one model may purchase a Soul-Bow for 20 points. Another may purchase a Soul-Whip for 20 points. A third may purchase a pair of HellForged Swords for 20 points.

Special Rules: Deepstrike, Eternal Servitude

Eternal Servitude: If joined by a Demon Majour, you may have the death of a Demon automatically restore the Demon Majour's wounds instead of any other result.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
(more to come but it's my 3am and I should really be sleeping zzzz)

The only thing I've read regarding the powers of Angels or Demons is the Bible, and in that Angels are said to have defeated entire armies in a day, and the Angel of Death killed 185,000 soldiers in a night.

Like Darksiders, a lot is "wrong" but I do like the concept. However, it seems you want them to be a more CC army, yet the standard Demons have WS3 and BS4. I think it should be WS7>6>5 for the Major>Noble>Demon, or even just lower the BS of the Demon to 3 as well.

None of these things exist in the 40k universe.

The problem with named biblical characters is that they're basically named space marines in a guardsman army. If I statted Lucifer for this he'd be 10's out of necessity, and half the enemy's army would join yours. If I did Michael, he'd have table-wide teleportation assaults with instant death no-save large-blast attacks in CC. That kind of thing.

SO, scaling back from that, to Demons Majour - the WS is representative of the predictiveness of the Arts Martial; Demons Majour have a wide range of battle experience, and can draw from many essences incorporate with their own; though they still always only hit and wound on 3+, their speed and experience allows them to dodge many attacks; enemies usually hit on 4+, or 5+ for ws3.

For regular demons, though they're strong and fast, their cunning is limited, and they're more likely to stick to simple, direct forms of attack - battle-scarred marines would have no problem striking first, and striking hard, against such simple forms. Regular demons are similar to the Cherubim and lowly chorister angels, simply caught up by Lucifer's charismatic wake and hauled along.

Other demons included will be cavalry and sorcerors, a couple named Demons Majour and Noble, soul swarms, and maybe some those of HIS creations, sent to Hell long before Lucifer's fall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:None of these things exist in the 40k universe.

I would appreciate it if you refrained from posting or commenting further. Though I can't stop you, your posts have been consistently hostile, curt, abrasive, rude, and in many cases unwelcome and contradictory to the spirit of the matter. If your stance on homebrew, changes to canon, or game alterations, is "Don't it's bad", this is perhaps not the forums or the game for you. If you get your kicks out of this sort of thing, a moderator will be contacted and the matter left with them.

Yeah, Angels and Demons fall under the "rules don't match the fluff" category. Tooooooo powerful. Anyway, I would like to see the other units you have in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:None of these things exist in the 40k universe.

I'm sorry, but

Work in 2 minutes, but the cavalry is all steed-mounted with soul lances, archers will all have soul-bows, Lillith and Sargatanas will be involved, the historical Hannibal will have his place at the head of an army of seething souls, and a few named characters from the book will also be joining us, sorcerers will do all sorts of interesting things involving soul-swarms and soul weapons.

Some more fluff: In the Burning Hells, there are two constants: The burning gaze of the Star, Algol, from which the Heavens above observe all that transpires. And the Gaping Maw of Abaddon, the endless vacuum from which none have returned, and from which only sorrow and despair can be felt. Around Abaddon, twelve great Watchers - ancient and immensely powerful, even by the standards of the Greatest of the Fallen, are arrayed - Some say to keep Abaddon from consuming everything, others say they will its continued existence, in an attempt to end their suffering. Whatever the case, great energies arise around the Watchers, which can be harnessed even across dimension and over great distance. It is these energies that are offered to tempt humans with sorcery, and it is these energies that are abused to sustain the cyclic hatred and war that has consumed hell since the Fall.


Demons Minor: The lower courts and younger Demons, those not come into their full power and usually under the mentorship of a Demon Majour or Noble. The Demons Minor are ever-eager to prove their worth to their masters, and succumb easily to The Passion of battle on the field.

Unit: Demons Minor
Model: Demonic Cavalry
Price: 250
Models: 3
Unit Type: Cavalry

Demons Minor: WS: 5 BS: 4 S: 5 T: 6 W: 4 I: 4 A: 2 Ld: 8 Sv: 3+

Demons Minor are a Fast Attack choice for a Demons Army.

Wargear: Hellforged Lance, Soul-Steed.

Hellforged Lance: A power weapon that strikes at Initiative 6 on the charge, regardless of other modifiers. Hits from a Hellforged Lance automatically wound or glance - no roll is made.

Special Rules: Deepstrike, Thundering Charge

Thundering Charge: Demonic Cavalry may assault 1d6" on the turn it arrives from Deepstrike.


Demons Feral: Lost in the wastes after the Fall, Demons Feral trickle into the cities that have arisen over the countless millennia. They bring with them a nobility gained from survival, a hardness tempered by their lone struggle against the ravages of Hell itself.

Unit: Demons Feral
Model: Demon Archer
Price: 150
Models: 5
Unit Type: Jump Infantry

Demons Feral: WS: 6 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 W: 2 I: 4 A: 3 Ld: 6 Sv: 3+

Demons Feral are a Troops Choice for a Demons Army.

Wargear: Soul-Bow, Abyssal Sword

Abyssal Sword: A rite of passage for thsoe demons who Fell alone in the Wastes of hell, the denizens of hell would have the Demon face an Abyssal in single, unarmed combat - without Arts Martial or Glyphs of Power to aid. Success was achieved when the Demon forged a sword from the spine of the Abyssal. Failure was met with the Demon's Essence being lost to the Wastes. An Abyssal Sword is a close combat weapon.

Special Rules: Infiltrate, Hit and Run, Deepstrike


Demons Arcane: An enigma even amongst the Demons Majour, Demons Arcane were the first to unravel the secrets of those mortal souls that trickle into the burning hells. They were the first to see the power inherent in mortal blood, the first to tame the molten arteries of Hell, and the first to tame those Great Beasts and Energies who struggle 'near Abaddon's gaping maw.

Unit: Demons Arcane
Model: Demon Sorcerer
Points: 200
Models: 1
Unit Type: Jump Infantry

Demon Sorcerer: WS: 3 BS: 5 S: 4 T: 4 W: 2 I: 3 A: 2 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+

Demons Arcane are Heavy Support Choices for a Demons Army.

Wargear: Blood Chalice, Channeling Rod

Blood Chalice: When the Demon Sorcerer would lose a wound to a Perils of the Warp, ignore that wound on a 3+.

Channeling Rod: When a Demon Sorcerer uses a Psyker Power he has used in the previous game turn, he may use that power without a Psyker test, as the Watchers' energies sustains his will. A Channeling Rod is a force weapon.

Special Rules: Psyker, Deepstrike

Choose 2 of the following Psyker Powers:

The Passion: The Passion is used at the beginning of the Assault Phase. A single friendly unit within 12" may add 1d3" to their assault distance, and gains +2 attacks on the charge instead of +1.

Blood Fountain: Blood Fountain is a Psyker Shooting attack. It fires with the following profile: Range: 24" S: 4 AP: 4 Special: Assault 3, Blast.
After hits are determined from a blast, models under or partially under the blast marker are moved the shortest possible distance toward the Demon Sorcerer, so that no models are under the blast marker.

Posession: Posession is a Psyker shooting attack. Roll to hit a single unit (friend or foe) within 12". The unit's owner allocates the hit, and makes a leadership test on that model's unmodified leadership. If failed, remove and replace that model with the Demon Sorcerer. If an enemy model is replaced this way, you may place the Demon Sorcerer so that it is at least 1" away from an enemy model, as close to the replaced model's previous position as possible.

Unfate: This Psyker power may be used immediately before your opponent makes a roll - each player rolls a D6 - if your roll is higher than your opponent's roll, you may remove any d6 result from the your opponent's subsequent roll. If your roll is lower than your opponent's, he rolls an extra D6 for his subsequent roll. If your roll is equal to your opponents, choose either.

Lava Dart: The next shooting attack made by target unit within 12" automatically wounds - no roll is necessary.

I think unfate needs to be a bit better worded. I think unfate intends to deal with weapons like Warscythes where you roll 2d6 for Armor pen, so with unfate it would be 1d6, or even possibly 3d6. But what if only 1d6 is needed to roll? Would they roll both and choose the highest?

The problem is that Biblical mythology just doesn't fit the established tone and atmosphere of the Warhammer 40,000 setting, where gods are either nigh-omnipotent aliens, sentient embodiments of anger, mutability, despair or 80s metal, or a dead scientist transformed into a living battery.

Moreover, given that the setting already has its close equivalents of medieval devils (Bloodletters, Daemonettes, etc.) and, in the person of Horus, its own Lucifer-figure, I don't really see what you're hoping to add by all this.

The funny thing is is that even "basic" demons and angels from Biblical mythology would have stats on par with Greater Daemons.

I don't think he really intends to add this into the lore of WH40k, it's just using the wh40k rules and stats.

As I said, it's a ruleset for a "Novel Theme'd Tournament" happening this weekend. We're allowed to use custom rules if our shop owner thinks they're fine. The characters and relative power levels of God's Demon are fairly consistent.