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calypso2ts wrote:My problem with SoB's is the lack of variety in the lists (and my own bias of what they used to 'feel like' playing, they used to feel epic with Faith, now they play very bleh).

The lists though, I will make any SoB list that people would use in a tournament....

Celestine
Jacobus - w/ conclave 6 DCA/3 Crusaders

3x Exorcist
3x Dominion in MM Immolator w/ 2x Melta

Fill in the rest to 'taste' (which means take 2 at most 3 BSS in rhinos and throw some special weapons on them).

The rest of the book has 2 units that are individually good, but are overshadowed in their slot/do not fit with a cohesive vision for the SoB (Rets and Seraphim). Then we get to the purely bad units - Canoness, Command Squad, Priest, Confessors, Repentia, Penitent engines. I would also call the new Celestians bad overall, but they at least bring an Immolator (also kind of bad now) and there are no other viable choices left anyway since we already maxed out HQ/Fast/Heavy...

I probably have not played them enough (6 or 7 times with the new book) to really 'know' the army, but that is more because they are so boring.

(sorry to derail, I was looking at my 3000 points of SoB last night and it made me sad)

jy2 wrote:One of my regular opponents and also partner in this battle report, SabrX, used to play a very competitive Immo-spam Witch Hunter list (though w/3 exorcists) back in the days. He's been somewhat disillusioned with his new battle sisters though after just a couple of games against me and has put them on the shelf for now. Of course my lists are usually pretty competitive as is my play, but those games just showed some of the glaring weaknesses of the new sisters. I agree that there isn't many viable, competitive sisters build, but even their most competitive builds are barely able to keep up with the competitive builds of the newer armies.

I think the fault lies in the "interim" sisters dex. Doesn't seem as if GW has put enough thought and time into its design. While all the other newer armies with their own, actual codices have a slew of competitive and fun builds, I just don't see that with the new Battle Sisters. So unfortunately, Sister players are going to be stuck with the same build if they want to play competitively, and even that really isn't enough to compete with the other newer codices.

pretre wrote:I will agree that the lack of options/viable builds is a problem. My difference in opinion is that I think that sisters are very viable with that build. (Celestine, Uriah Bomb, 3xDom, 3xExo + Whatever)

I actually plan on taking Sisters to 'Ard Boyz this year with just a slight tweak to add a second conclave and Kyrinov instead of Celestine. Should be entertaining.

jy2 wrote:Sure they can win. But if you take their best tournament build against the best of some of the other codices - grey knight Crowe-Purifier Psyfleman-spam, Space Wolf long-fang spam, IG vendetta-melta-vets, Necron MTO wraithwing, BA razor-AV13-spam, even tyranid hive guard-tervigon-spam - they really struggle. The lists I normally use (which includes 4 of the lists above) can handle MSU-mech usually with not much problem, and that includes the Battle Sisters. I'm not saying that my lists can't be beaten by them, but it will be a struggle for them each time.

pretre wrote:I guess we'll see. I will cease my derail.

SabrX wrote:For the record, Sisters of Battle is far from being most competitive 40k armies. It's becomes a game of how many stuff they can kill at close range before they get swept away in assault. Sure they have a couple CC options, but they pale in comparison to other codices CC units. Nevertheless, I wish you luck pretre.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moving this over to stop the OT on jy2's thread.

I think, SabrX, that SoB may not be the most competitive army, but they are able to compete with the most competitive. Let me explain.

Sisters of Battle excel in killing 2+/3+ save bodies now. What are the top lists (with the exception of mech guard)?

As for CC, Sisters have one of the best CC units in the game for sheer killiness: the Uriah Bomb.

7-9 DCA with Rerolls on the Charge, +1 Attack and FNP are an utter beast.

Other fun that makes their day:
- St C is a game changer all by herself. Her ability to disrupt the enemy is awesome.
- Dominions allow you to put solid pressure on your enemy turn 1 or in later turns through outflank. They also allow you cover for your army, regardless of terrain, on first turn.
- Exorcists are a great long range weapon (people disagree with me on this, but...) that puts the fear of god into almost anything subject to instant death or into high toughness, multi-wound models.
- Melta in every slot. Most of it with some way to make it more accurate.
- TL-MM Razorbacks.

I'm not going to argue that we are better/worse than we were before or that we have gained/lost flavor, etc. I am going to say that Sisters can compete pretty well with what is out there.

Thanks for opening this thread, I'll follow this with interest.

It's becomes a game of how many stuff they can kill at close range before they get swept away in assault.

To be fair, I think that's intentional - and I don't even have a problem with that.

The issue I see with the new 'dex, however, is missing options to assist squads that were assaulted, or prevent that from happening. I had a pretty CC-effective Canoness leading the charge with her Celestian Honor Guard, but with the new army list (nerfed stats and removed wargear) I can pretty much forget about her - and the Seraphim, the one other unit that I used to reinforce weak areas during advance, have been nerfed as well.

Maybe I'll just have to get used to Scouting tactics (which I still have little experience with); establishing firepoints from which to cover my Sisters from...

I actually believe pretre when he says that a specific build incorporating Celestine, Kyrinov and/or Jacobus can be competetive if run by skilled players, as they serve to sorta balance the weaknesses I outlined above, but personally I loathe the idea of running special characters (especially ones that aren't even part of "my" Order - if they'd at least had given us Praxedes back!), so I'm stuck between playing SoB exactly like GW wants me to, or running an extremely gimped list, and I don't particularly like either option.

Looking forward for other players' actual game experiences with the good ol' Canoness, though! This is what I'm most interested in atm.

Lynata wrote:The issue I see with the new 'dex, however, is missing options to assist squads that were assaulted, or prevent that from happening. I had a pretty CC-effective Canoness leading the charge with her Celestian Honor Guard, but with the new army list (nerfed stats and removed wargear) I can pretty much forget about her - and the Seraphim, the one other unit that I used to reinforce weak areas during advance, have been nerfed as well.

Your tools for this is a bit different, but Celestine works much like the flying canoness of doom used to. She is a deterrent and can fly in and bail someone out if needed. I've stayed away from Seraphim for a while (since 3.5) so couldn't comment on them. I used them once or twice in 5th and was disappointed (both WH and WD codexes).

Maybe I'll just have to get used to Scouting tactics (which I still have little experience with); establishing firepoints from which to cover my Sisters from...

Scouting is huge.

I actually believe pretre when he says that a specific build incorporating Celestine, Kyrinov and/or Jacobus can be competetive if run by skilled players, as they serve to sorta balance the weaknesses I outlined above, but personally I loathe the idea of running special characters (especially ones that aren't even part of "my" Order - if they'd at least had given us Praxedes back!), so I'm stuck between playing SoB exactly like GW wants me to, or running an extremely gimped list, and I don't particularly like either option.

Uriah and Co do a great job in encouraging folks to stay in their vehicles and away from your gribbly bits. If they charge a sisters squad, you can guarantee that they will be killed to the man in retribution. Celestine is great at swooping in and saving folks as well.

Looking forward for other players' actual game experiences with the good ol' Canoness, though! This is what I'm most interested in atm.

The unit I am most interested in for a Canoness right now is a bare canoness with command squad and 3-4 multimeltas in a rhino or imm. The problem though (and this is a big problem for the 'dex) is that it relies on faith and right now I am not including units that rely on faith in my armies (stopped after the FAQ, previous to the FAQ faith was very reliable).

Just speaking as a dark eldar player, but if I had to take a crack against that list then I would just take multiple ravagers n raiders with disintegrator cannons. Given that you rely on three tanks for your long range firepower if they are knocked out (one weapon destroyed result being all it takes) then a SOB army would probably wilt against a fairly no brainer tactic.

Then again (speaking generically n not about tournaments), some armies are less well equiped to kill meq at shooting. Tau are the most dramatic example, with no CC to beat SOB stuff and VERY expensive antimeq weapons. I swear, my Tau army got tabled by sisters because of this; even though I was markerlighting his units and shooting 30-50 pulse rifle shots at BS5.

But i do think the guy has a point since they can't do close quarters shooting any better than another army. Technically in my Tau game I was massively outgunning him but he was fiendishly lucky with his armour saves. A guard army could probably spam more flamers n meltas. Faith is too rare to be a factor and a few extra bolters vs mech doesn't equate to a decisive advantage. Exorcists are okay I suppose. Death cult assasians are disgusting but you can only take a limited number and are vulnerable to being blown up before getting into combat as a result. IMO.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Just speaking as a dark eldar player, but if I had to take a crack against that list then I would just take multiple ravagers n raiders with disintegrator cannons. Given that you rely on three tanks for your long range firepower if they are knocked out (one weapon destroyed result being all it takes) then a SOB army would probably wilt against a fairly no brainer tactic.

I think that we can tailor lists to deal with any army, but the chances of running into a disintegrator heavy army in any competitive event is VERY low. Also, keep in mind that my long-range firepower is three tanks, but you have 3 TL-MM Razors in your grill turn 1 (at double tap range) and the rest of the army all has anti-tank.

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Just speaking as a dark eldar player, but if I had to take a crack against that list then I would just take multiple ravagers n raiders with disintegrator cannons. Given that you rely on three tanks for your long range firepower if they are knocked out (one weapon destroyed result being all it takes) then a SOB army would probably wilt against a fairly no brainer tactic.

I think that we can tailor lists to deal with any army, but the chances of running into a disintegrator heavy army in any competitive event is VERY low. Also, keep in mind that my long-range firepower is three tanks, but you have 3 TL-MM Razors in your grill turn 1 (at double tap range) and the rest of the army all has anti-tank.

Yeah i don't play competitive so most players at my group balk at the cost associated with buying transports so most tend to be elite infantry with a few heavy tanks. Perfect for disintegrator cannons. But, really, nobody takes D cannons? I would have thought they were the perfect marine killers and marines are so common. Also, not to throw a spanner in your grill, but with shadowfields you need to get within 6'' to shoot me with meltaguns+rapidfire bolters.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Yeah i don't play competitive so most players at my group balk at the cost associated with buying transports so most tend to be elite infantry with a few heavy tanks. Perfect for disintegrator cannons. But, really, nobody takes D cannons? I would have thought they were the perfect marine killers and marines are so common. Also, not to throw a spanner in your grill, but with shadowfields you need to get within 6'' to shoot me with meltaguns+rapidfire bolters.

Yeah, I think that that's the difference. In most of the competitive events I see, you see a lot of mechanized armies so D's do not show up much. Shadowfields are a concern, but again those don't show up in a lot of the competitive DE lists I see (I see a lot more Flickers which concern me when a lot of my guns are only one shot and rely on their strength+ap1 to do the damage, not on volume).

Also, to be fair, we are talking about the competitive aspects of the list, meaning the use of this book/codex at competitive events (i.e. RTTs, GTs, etc).

jy2 wrote:Sure they can win. But if you take their best tournament build against the best of some of the other codices - grey knight Crowe-Purifier Psyfleman-spam, Space Wolf long-fang spam, IG vendetta-melta-vets, Necron MTO wraithwing, BA razor-AV13-spam, even tyranid hive guard-tervigon-spam - they really struggle. The lists I normally use (which includes 4 of the lists above) can handle MSU-mech usually with not much problem, and that includes the Battle Sisters. I'm not saying that my lists can't be beaten by them, but it will be a struggle for them each time.

How would you feel about a challenge. My SoB vs your top tier builds over vassal since we cant meet in person. We will measure out how good they can hold up against a well played tough GK List or one of your other top builds. We can even right a battle report for it haha.

I know you have mentioned this a few times Pretre, but I do not totally understand how it is that the new SoB can annihilate 2+/3+ save armies.

The only thing I can think of are Meltas and the Uriah Bomb (and Exorcist really is wasted on these targets who usually have cover from it). The Bomb certainly smashes these units, but I would take the old DG flamers anyday to eradicate infantry.

Overall I have found that bolters are just not effective enough against 3+ armies and once you get charged, the unit is dead.

Further, Uriah has no options for an assault vehicles, and needs to be at least in proximity to the front lines to be effective. This means, the unit is likely to lose its ride and it is pretty immobile once that happens. The GK matchup seems especially bad (I know you mentioned you had won many of these)...

Edit: I did face disintigrators once at an 'Ard Boyz tournament, I was really surprised and it was a bummer because I had my Daemons there and no boxes to hide in...

Tomb King wrote:How would you feel about a challenge. My SoB vs your top tier builds over vassal since we cant meet in person. We will measure out how good they can hold up against a well played tough GK List or one of your other top builds. We can even right a battle report for it haha.

Edit: LOL, thought you were talking to me. Go to town, TK! I knew this would come up eventually. I am by no means a top-tier general. I am solidly middle of the pack when it comes to generalship. I will only do my cause harm by playing a game to prove a point. I also am not a fan of Vassal. It takes all the fun out of playing 40k.

calypso2ts wrote:I know you have mentioned this a few times Pretre, but I do not totally understand how it is that the new SoB can annihilate 2+/3+ save armies.

Okay, first off, let me repeat that I am a mediocre general.

Since the book came out, I played a 4-round 1750 tournament where I played:
- GK Termies and Psyflemen list. Tabled him. A great deal of this was tactics on his part. He put his dreads on the table and deepstruck his termies. I think you can see where that was going.
- GK Purifier/Storms/Hybrid list. I destroyed him turns 1-3 (all vehicles gone, hq's nuked, etc) but the game ended on 5 (stupid random game length lol) and I was 2 behind on KP (St C stayed down and a freak rhino accident got me behind). If the game had gone any further, he would have probably been tabled. He ended up winning the tournament. I also made some mistakes in deployment that left me out of place during turns 4-5.
- Played Shooty Tyranids. Won by 2 objectives. Solidly kept him bottled up in his deployment zone and Celestine was a champ.
- Green Tide Orks. Draw. Screwed up on turn 4 and charged a falling back boys squad (under half) with Celestine. They regrouped and killed her, turning a potential turn 4 win into a draw. We go to five and I contest all four objectives with an immo, 2 exos and Celestine (all I had left). Also two key difficult terrain checks (Jacobus' rhino and an exo to tank shock and contest on 4) got blown. Made me add a dozer for Jacobus' rhino.


I'm hoping to hit up a 3 round on 2/11/12, so I'll keep you guys informed. In my other games with the list, I LOVE high armor save armies because everything I have eats them up. (Although most of my other games are just garage games, so it isn't strictly competitive.)

The only thing I can think of are Meltas and the Uriah Bomb (and Exorcist really is wasted on these targets who usually have cover from it). The Bomb certainly smashes these units, but I would take the old DG flamers anyday to eradicate infantry.

Melta in every unit, Exorcists, Uriah Bomb. As long as I remember to stay in my transports, I have always ripped apart 2+/3+.

Overall I have found that bolters are just not effective enough against 3+ armies and once you get charged, the unit is dead.

Completely agree. Bolters are just a tax I take to get the two meltas.

Further, Uriah has no options for an assault vehicles, and needs to be at least in proximity to the front lines to be effective. This means, the unit is likely to lose its ride and it is pretty immobile once that happens. The GK matchup seems especially bad (I know you mentioned you had won many of these)...

Here's the thing. To use jy2's terminology, I play MTO. Turn 1 there are 3 TL-MM Immos at 12" from your lines, blocking LOS to my army. Do you shoot at those? (Meaning Uriah and the Exorcists do their work) Or Uriah? (Behind cover from immos. Meaning that the Immos/Exos get free reign) At the Exos (in cover and meaning Immos/Uriah get forward). Not to mention Celestine is right behind one of those forward vehicles looking at a 1st/2nd turn tie up. That's generally my battle plan.

Also, Uriah is not really a charge unit. He's a counter-charge unit. He keeps people off my gribblies.

Here's my list from that 1750, as well:
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 8 Henchmen (6 DCA, 2 Crusaders) - Rhino (Searchlight)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, MM
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, MM
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, MM - Rhino (Searchlight)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Bolt Pistol/Combi-Melta - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Bolt Pistol/Combi-Melta - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Chainsword/Combi-Melta - Immo (TL-MM)
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

And BOY did I miss those BSS rhinos. Ugh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last part of the huge post is my proposed 1850:
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 9 Henchmen (7 DCA, 2 Crusaders) - Rhino (Dozer)
Celestians (5) w/ Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Combi-melta/Bolt Pistol, TL-HF Immo
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multi-melta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Chainsword - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

I could, of course, trade the celestians for a sisters squad or something.

I will agree that the lack of options/viable builds is a problem. My difference in opinion is that I think that sisters are very viable with that build. (Celestine, Uriah Bomb, 3xDom, 3xExo + Whatever)

I actually plan on taking Sisters to 'Ard Boyz this year with just a slight tweak to add a second conclave and Kyrinov instead of Celestine. Should be entertaining.

I think this encapsulates the competitiveness of Battle Sisters. Once you take Celestine, the Uriah Bomb, and then max out your HS and FA the army is effectively out of options. Those choices add up to about 1300 pts (1400 if you trade Celestine for Kyrinov and another Conclave). That puts the theoretical maximum of SoB effectiveness at around 1750 pts. Once you break the 2000 pt barrier you're reduced to just adding random crap to fill out the points.

At 1500 - 1750 I'd almost consider the Sisters to be a top-tier army. Above that, it just goes downhill fast. Especially since 2000 and above is where the more conventional armies start to really get good. I can't imagine a Sisters army doing well at 'Ard Boyz. I'd love to be shown otherwise.

The rest of the book has 2 units that are individually good, but are overshadowed in their slot/do not fit with a cohesive vision for the SoB (Rets and Seraphim).

Since I'm the lone voice in the darkness for Retributors, I'll step up and become the lone voice for the Seraphim as well.

I think a single Seraphim unit is very good and is a perfect complement to two Dominion squads in a 1500 or 1750 TAC list. Seras are essentially the shooty version of a counter-charge and they bring a handful of advantages to your army. Their jump packs provide better mobility than a Rhino at the expense of protection. In the shooting phase, a full size Seraphim squad is on par with a full sized Dominion squad (w/ flamers) and they have the added ability of being able to assault afterwards and mop up the enemy.

When you're building against all possible opponents, Seraphim give you a strong anti-horde unit that's also useful against standard armies (marines) as well. Ultimately, I find that to be their biggest advantage. They are to my army what the combi-flamer is to my Battle Sister squads.

Amerikon wrote:I think this encapsulates the competitiveness of Battle Sisters. Once you take Celestine, the Uriah Bomb, and then max out your HS and FA the army is effectively out of options. Those choices add up to about 1300 pts (1400 if you trade Celestine for Kyrinov and another Conclave). That puts the theoretical maximum of SoB effectiveness at around 1750 pts. Once you break the 2000 pt barrier you're reduced to just adding random crap to fill out the points.

Well, you throw in 3-4 BSS squads for objectives and then drop in Celestians for extra TL-MM and double melta action and you aren't too bad.

At 1500 - 1750 I'd almost consider the Sisters to be a top-tier army. Above that, it just goes downhill fast. Especially since 2000 and above is where the more conventional armies start to really get good. I can't imagine a Sisters army doing well at 'Ard Boyz. I'd love to be shown otherwise.

I'll do my best.

I think a single Seraphim unit is very good and is a perfect complement to two Dominion squads in a 1500 or 1750 TAC list. Seras are essentially the shooty version of a counter-charge and they bring a handful of advantages to your army. Their jump packs provide better mobility than a Rhino at the expense of protection. In the shooting phase, a full size Seraphim squad is on par with a full sized Dominion squad (w/ flamers) and they have the added ability of being able to assault afterwards and mop up the enemy.

I won't argue that Seraphim aren't good in the new dex. They are good at shooting. But they suffer in that they are the only de-meched unit in a mech army and just aren't as good as a Dominion squad. The anti-horde idea is a compelling one though.

pretre wrote:they suffer in that they are the only de-meched unit in a mech army

I don't see this as being a big problem. Here are the two ways I use them:
Deep Strike - If they deep strike they're probably coming in on turn 2 or 3 so various elements of your army have already been "de-meched" so it doesn't really matter. I usually use this against armies with a static firebase like IG, long fangs, or Tau broadsides, also in Dawn of War missions.

Counter Strike - I keep them on the board but hold them back. In this case they're either totally hidden or in some cover. Even if they were in the open, no one has long range anti-infantry. In this situation, they're a seriously low priority target to the enemy. How concerned would you be with a jump squad that isn't running towards you? I usually use this against an enemy that has to come towards me. Things like outflanking Genestealers, Blood Angels, or other Deep Strike and CC armies.

pretre wrote:and just aren't as good as a Dominion squad.

It depends on the point level and on what their job is. They can't scout a MM Immo which is a bummer, but they're way better at killing stuff than whatever Dominion squad is in that Immolator. At 2000+, you need all the Dominions you can get, but at 1500 and 1750, the Seras are awesome.

It's all about balance. If you take 3 Dominion squads in Immos and give the Dominions melta, then you're approaching that area of too much melta. If you give your Dominion squads flamers, then you run into a problem of them being ineffective. Five ladies w/ a pair of flamers aren't going to kill much and once they're out of the tank they're gonna die. A full squad of Seras are powerful enough to erase units from the board.

At 1500 and 1750, with 2 Dominions and 3 Exorcists you should have more than enough anti-mech, anti-tank, and anti-elite firepower. The Seras balance the army. At least they do for me. There's more than one way to skin an Ork.

Amerikon wrote:It's all about balance. If you take 3 Dominion squads in Immos and give the Dominions melta, then you're approaching that area of too much melta. If you give your Dominion squads flamers, then you run into a problem of them being ineffective. Five ladies w/ a pair of flamers aren't going to kill much and once they're out of the tank they're gonna die. A full squad of Seras are powerful enough to erase units from the board.

2 Twinlinked flamers after a tankshock are nothing to sneeze at. Also, the job of the Dominions is to die. If they are getting killed than something important isn't. Their job is to scout forward, nuke a tank, flame the insides (if necessary) and then distract the opponent into focusing fire on them after they've already done their job.

That being said, I agree that Seras might have a place... My concern is cost vs reward. Seraphs seem more expensive to be viable than Dominions.

At 1500 and 1750, with 2 Dominions and 3 Exorcists you should have more than enough anti-mech, anti-tank, and anti-elite firepower. The Seras balance the army. At least they do for me. There's more than one way to skin an Ork.

This is the most important part for me. Anti-horde aspect... I am intrigued (since my sisters list is a bit weak to horde). What list do you run?

There are different variations of the "Uriah Bomb". There's the extreme offense version (9 DCA + Uriah) which petre uses, extreme defense version (9 Crusaders + Uriah), and there's hybrid with various ratios of DCA:Crusaders. There's also Arco-flagellants, but they are seldom used because Uriah already grants the squad he is with FNP.

The extreme offense version relies on dishing out damage volume of I6 attacks, killing enemy modes, and reducing return attacks. On the charge, the extreme offense version of the Uriah Bomb should kill 11.16 MEQ without invulnerable. However, there are a couple of flaws with the offense version of Uriah Bomb. If you do the math, 5++ w/ FNP averages out to same as a 3+ save. A T3 units with 3+ to normal non-ignore armor save or non-Str6 shooting/attacks and 5++ to ignore armor saves or Str6.

The extreme defense version trades killing power for durability. Crusaders still have WS4 meaning on average they'll be hitting and will be hit on 4's. Their initiative is less, but they are still equipped with a power weapon and benefit from Jacobus' Banner of Sanctity. With a 3++ and FNP, Crusaders will make 83% saves against non-ignore armor saves or Str6 attacks.

The hybrid version is a ratio of Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins. With wound allocation, power weapon or Str6 attacks that have a higher chance of killing Death Cult Assassins can be allocated to Crusaders. There are various ratios such as 4:5, 5:4, etc. While the Battle Conclave won’t be as durable as all-Crusader or offensive as all-Death Cult Assassins, it’s fairly well rounded for most situations.

There are several weaknesses to all version of the Uriah Bomb. They depend on an AV11 Rhino for mobility. Any list with decent number of shooting could disable their transport, which delays them from reaching units they intend to assault. The battle conclave also lacks frag grenades. This is second most glaring weakness to the Uriah Bomb. Smart players makes use of terrain so that if their infantry gets assaulted, they would at least be able to strike back. Without frag grenades. There's a chance that the Uriah Bomb will take heavy casualties, which reduces their potency in assault. However, lack of frag grenades isn't the number one weakness. The Achilles heel to the Uriah Bomb is lacking squad stubborn or fearless. Uriah is an IC and being and IC, he will eventually have to get base to base with enemy infantry. Once he dies, the entire squad loses stubborn. This means if the Battle Conclave loses combat, there’s a chance they could be killed in sweeping advance or forced to fall back and possibly never regroup.

While the Jacob Bomb is formidable, it’s not a death star. It’s not durable and potent enough to decimate multiple units. Jacob Bomb won’t save the rest of the Sisters army from assault and neither will Saint Celestine. Despite having 2+ save and multiple wounds, Saint Celestine can still fail her 4++ save and get insta-gib. She can still come back, but that doesn’t lock enemy units in assault.

Sisters of Battle number one weakness is assault. This wasn’t a problem in previous 3rd ed codex where a Canoness or Veteran Sister Superior could purchase Book of St. Lucius and grant 12” stubborn bubble to all friendly units. Now, a Sister squad without stubborn IC can lose combat and potentially wiped out in sweeping advance. It’s ironic that their strength lies in close range shooting. To be effective, they put themselves at risk of getting assaulted.

As mentioned in OP’s post, I mentioned earlier that the name of the game is to shoot enemy units and try not to get assaulted. This has been true in the same codex, but the ramifications from not successfully neutralizing enemy units in the shooting phase in the previous codex weren’t as dangerous as they are in the current new codex. A small MEQ squad can still assault full strength Battle Sister squad, win combat, and either wipe out or force the Sisters to regroup. Sure there are faith powers allowing the Battle Sisters to regroup, but the chances of getting it off successfully are low. There are tactics to prevent assaults such as Seraphims, Celestine, or good positioning of the Jacob Bomb (disembark, move, assault from non-moving vehicle), but it’s not completely reliable (reasons stated above) and ineffective against MSU or assault units attacking from multiple flanks. An alternative is the vehicle wall tactic (see my signature Rhino tactic link), but it doesn’t work if the vehicle wall gets destroyed.

Now many might argue why not just shoot the crap out of enemy infantry and prevent assault entirely. It’s not as easy as it looks. In the past, the best tactic is never mono to mono. Never pit one Sister squad against another enemy infantry unit unless statistical average is in overwhelming favor. Always focus-fire multiple squads at single infantry unit until they aren’t a threat. Same rules apply, but fire power and meaning of neutralize has changed. In the new codex, fire power has been altered and is arguably less effective against MEQ than they were before. This is due to all Sister units losing access to Divine Guidance. The meaning of threat has also changed. Before, Sisters needs to kill only enough where they could eventually win in assault. Previous stubborn leadership bubbles allowed Sisters to stall long enough for an assault unit to reach and bail them out. The new meaning of neutralize is close to annihilation, leaving almost no one left standing. A Sister squad can’t afford to be assaulted.

Two problems that prevented the previous Sisters of Battle codex from being considered top tier exist in the current codex. Sisters of Battle lack anti-mech long range shooting. In todays meta-game, volume of anti-mech is popular. Once Sisters loses their mobility, they lose their advantage. Enemy mobile units could take the initiative before foot Sisters can react. They could move + disembark + rapid fire or even assault.

The second problem is Annihilation. Sisters of Battle are most effective played as a mechanized army. Unfortunately, all Sisters transports are AV11. A strong list includes multiple transports, which is problematic in annihilation games. 3 Exorcists isn’t enough against armies that can take more range anti-mech shooting.

Current top competitive armies that popular in the tournament scene includes Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves. IMO Necrons will soon join this list, but it will take time and more tournaments before they can be recognized. Orks, Chaos Space Marines, and Tyranids are also common. A competitive Sisters of Battle army list will struggle and most of the time lose against popular tournament list builds for the reasons I detailed in this post. It all boils down to 3 critical issue that Sisters lack whereas everyone has in some form or another:
-Lack of ATSKNF, stubborn, or fearless in most Sister units.
-Lack of anti-mech long range shooting.
-Annihilation missions.

pretre wrote:What list do you run?

It's probably about as radically different from yours as the new codex allows, which means it's just about the same.
I took this list to a 1500pt tourney last weekend and did pretty well with it. I was 3-2, but my first loss was by just a hair to a guy who was 300 pts over the limit and my second loss was to a guy who literally (and I mean literally) failed 3 armor saves the entire game.

I think the biggest indicator of how well Sisters work at these lower point levels is that my first two wins came against long range shooty armies. I never would've stood a chance against those armies with the old Witch Hunters list. Being able to scout/outflank is an absolute game changer for us. Anyway, here's my army:

Amerikon's Army wrote:
HQ
St. Celestine

TROOPS
Battle Sister Squad - VSS w/ combi-flamer, melta, multi-melta, Rhino
Battle Sister Squad - VSS w/ combi-flamer, melta, multi-melta, Rhino

FAST
Dominion Squad - VSS w/ combi-plasma, 3x melta, flamer, Rhino
Dominion Squad - VSS w/ combi-plasma, 3x melta, flamer, Rhino
Seraphim Squad - VSS w/ melta-bombs, 2x hand flamers

HEAVY
Exorcist
Exorcist
Retributor Squad - 4x Heavy Bolters, Simulacrum Imperialis

Notes:
At 1500pts I find the Uriah Bomb to be overkill. Usually if your opponent has a big nasty CC squad, they've compromised their army somewhere else and you can typically shoot them down. My 1750 list would literally be this one + Uriah Bomb.

I like 10 strong Dominions for a few reasons. The first and most obvious would be more weapons. Second, I like to be able to shoot from the Rhino. Third, I like them to have a little staying power once they're de-meched. Fourth, (not a great reason but...) that's just how I've been playing them and I'm used to it. I'm going to try out the Immolator Dominions in my next few games.

This was the first time I went with 3 meltas and a flamer and I was never once sorry that I did. It made the squad more flexible without detracting from it's melta power and it was unexpectedly useful for wound allocation. Poor flamer sister ate a lot of Power Fist attacks last weekend.

Typically I run the Retributors bare-bones, but I had a few extra points from taking the flamers in the Dominion squads so I gave them a Simulacrum. They weren't standouts, but they did pretty well. They tore up a Land Speed squadron and shot down a Storm Raven. I'd probably drop them at higher points levels though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:The extreme offense version relies on dishing out damage volume of I6 attacks, killing enemy modes, and reducing return attacks. On the charge, the extreme offense version of the Uriah Bomb should kill 11.16 MEQ without invulnerable.

Your numbers are a bit off. Uriah gives +1A and re-rolls to hit so on the charge 9 DCAs will make 45 attacks, hitting with 40, which would be 20 wounds on an MEQ squad. That means that if someone is foolish enough to put two squads next to each other you should be able to multi-charge and wipe them out. Don't forget that DCAs are WS5 and S4.

I agree with much of your analysis but I think that the new list provides tools to mitigate some of those weaknesses.
Anti-Mech: The Exorcist makes up for some of the lack of anti-Mech. Scouting Dominions make up for a good amount of it as well. If you can get w/in 12" on turn 1, then long range anti-mech is largely irrelevant. If you go all-in on melta Dominions, you can potentially threaten 9 vehicles on turn one. That's a pretty stout Alpha Strike.

Assault: The Uriah Bomb isn't going to be able to walk across the board like Draigowing or 10 TH/SS Terminators, but it will kill what it hits, and that's its best attribute. I haven't run the numbers, but if you want to compare apples to apples, I'd bet that two conclaves could wipe almost any other 400pt unit in the game. You have to be patient with them and pick your battles. The same is true of Celestine. There's a lot of stuff out there that she just can't kill, so you have to keep her away from units that will tie her down. So while individually, I think Sisters are worse at combat, the army as a whole is better.

Annihilation: Well, we've always sucked at KP, so I don't expect that to change.

As I said in an earlier post, I think the real problem is that after your first 1300 or 1400 pts you've basically run out of effective units. Throwing in a couple of troop squads and you've got the most kill efficient army at around 1750. Keep going higher than that and the army just gets worse and worse. So if you play all your games at 2000 or 2500pts, then you'll think that the Sisters are largely ineffective. If you play at 1500 or 1750, you'll think they're great. This is exacerbated by the fact that most of the top-tier armies really get good at 2000 and higher.

Amerikon wrote:

pretre wrote:What list do you run?

It's probably about as radically different from yours as the new codex allows, which means it's just about the same.
I took this list to a 1500pt tourney last weekend and did pretty well with it. I was 3-2, but my first loss was by just a hair to a guy who was 300 pts over the limit and my second loss was to a guy who literally (and I mean literally) failed 3 armor saves the entire game.

I think the biggest indicator of how well Sisters work at these lower point levels is that my first two wins came against long range shooty armies. I never would've stood a chance against those armies with the old Witch Hunters list. Being able to scout/outflank is an absolute game changer for us. Anyway, here's my army:

Amerikon's Army wrote:
HQ
St. Celestine

TROOPS
Battle Sister Squad - VSS w/ combi-flamer, melta, multi-melta, Rhino
Battle Sister Squad - VSS w/ combi-flamer, melta, multi-melta, Rhino

FAST
Dominion Squad - VSS w/ combi-plasma, 3x melta, flamer, Rhino
Dominion Squad - VSS w/ combi-plasma, 3x melta, flamer, Rhino
Seraphim Squad - VSS w/ melta-bombs, 2x hand flamers

HEAVY
Exorcist
Exorcist
Retributor Squad - 4x Heavy Bolters, Simulacrum Imperialis

Notes:
At 1500pts I find the Uriah Bomb to be overkill. Usually if your opponent has a big nasty CC squad, they've compromised their army somewhere else and you can typically shoot them down. My 1750 list would literally be this one + Uriah Bomb.

I like 10 strong Dominions for a few reasons. The first and most obvious would be more weapons. Second, I like to be able to shoot from the Rhino. Third, I like them to have a little staying power once they're de-meched. Fourth, (not a great reason but...) that's just how I've been playing them and I'm used to it. I'm going to try out the Immolator Dominions in my next few games.

This was the first time I went with 3 meltas and a flamer and I was never once sorry that I did. It made the squad more flexible without detracting from it's melta power and it was unexpectedly useful for wound allocation. Poor flamer sister ate a lot of Power Fist attacks last weekend.

Typically I run the Retributors bare-bones, but I had a few extra points from taking the flamers in the Dominion squads so I gave them a Simulacrum. They weren't standouts, but they did pretty well. They tore up a Land Speed squadron and shot down a Storm Raven. I'd probably drop them at higher points levels though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:The extreme offense version relies on dishing out damage volume of I6 attacks, killing enemy modes, and reducing return attacks. On the charge, the extreme offense version of the Uriah Bomb should kill 11.16 MEQ without invulnerable.

Your numbers are a bit off. Uriah gives +1A and re-rolls to hit so on the charge 9 DCAs will make 45 attacks, hitting with 40, which would be 20 wounds on an MEQ squad. That means that if someone is foolish enough to put two squads next to each other you should be able to multi-charge and wipe them out. Don't forget that DCAs are WS5 and S4.

I agree with much of your analysis but I think that the new list provides tools to mitigate some of those weaknesses.
Anti-Mech: The Exorcist makes up for some of the lack of anti-Mech. Scouting Dominions make up for a good amount of it as well. If you can get w/in 12" on turn 1, then long range anti-mech is largely irrelevant. If you go all-in on melta Dominions, you can potentially threaten 9 vehicles on turn one. That's a pretty stout Alpha Strike.

Assault: The Uriah Bomb isn't going to be able to walk across the board like Draigowing or 10 TH/SS Terminators, but it will kill what it hits, and that's its best attribute. I haven't run the numbers, but if you want to compare apples to apples, I'd bet that two conclaves could wipe almost any other 400pt unit in the game. You have to be patient with them and pick your battles. The same is true of Celestine. There's a lot of stuff out there that she just can't kill, so you have to keep her away from units that will tie her down. So while individually, I think Sisters are worse at combat, the army as a whole is better.

Annihilation: Well, we've always sucked at KP, so I don't expect that to change.

As I said in an earlier post, I think the real problem is that after your first 1300 or 1400 pts you've basically run out of effective units. Throwing in a couple of troop squads and you've got the most kill efficient army at around 1750. Keep going higher than that and the army just gets worse and worse. So if you play all your games at 2000 or 2500pts, then you'll think that the Sisters are largely ineffective. If you play at 1500 or 1750, you'll think they're great. This is exacerbated by the fact that most of the top-tier armies really get good at 2000 and higher.

Dominions with 4 special weapons???? Its a suicide squad why run them 10 strong?

I noticed that SoB had an inability to deal with long range shooting it was made blatantly clear when 4 gk dreads were shooting me down relentlessly. However, with the proper flanking maneuvers and the good old look over here while I hit you here still wins the day. Pretre you run 6 flamers in your dominions?? Did you not see how effective melta's can be in that squad? I was taking out 1 to 2 kill points everytime I engaged the enemy with that combo. If the MM fails to get the job done then your dominions are stuck there high and dry.


I tell you what pretre. If you take sisters to ard boyz I will do the same. 2500 points just means I can take my repentia ladies

@SabrX: Amerikon covered some of this, but I run 7/2 Uriah Bomb.

On the charge, 35 DCA attacks. 2/3 hit with reroll. 31 hits. Half kill, that's 15.5 dead SM. Not counting crusaders. 5 dead TH/SS Terminators. Uriah has gotten into actual hand to hand maybe twice out of my games. You start him 12 inches back with the squad in front of him when you get out of the transport and the charge and reaction does all the rest. Second and third turns are rare. Most opponents do not get a chance to swing back.

As for cover/grenades, that's what the vehicle is for. Tank shock them out of cover. Works all the time. And I have nuked multiple, multiple squads with the Bomb. Either the rhino gets popped and the opponent drops his whole army into them so they don't get an assault or they make mincemeat of 2 or 3 units. In one GK game, I killed Mordrak and his boys, a BroChamp and a Heavy GK unit. It was disgusting.

Also, the Jacobus bomb is dead cheap. 85+135+35. It will eat deathstars that are twice those points alive.

Both Celestine and Jacobus can't run the army themselves though, that's what the other 1300 points of your army is for. (Keep in mind they are an investment of like 350-400 points)

Despite having 2+ save and multiple wounds, Saint Celestine can still fail her 4++ save and get insta-gib. She can still come back, but that doesn’t lock enemy units in assault.

Which can be just as good, especially when she comes back on your turn, can shoot and assault again. It is hard to quantify how awesome she is.

Sisters of Battle number one weakness is assault. This wasn’t a problem in previous 3rd ed codex where a Canoness or Veteran Sister Superior could purchase Book of St. Lucius and grant 12” stubborn bubble to all friendly units. Now, a Sister squad without stubborn IC can lose combat and potentially wiped out in sweeping advance. It’s ironic that their strength lies in close range shooting. To be effective, they put themselves at risk of getting assaulted.

Don't get out of your vehicle unless forced to. You're stuck on what we lost and not what we have.

I think you are underestimating how the army works. If you get assaulted, you will die. So don't get assaulted. You have units for counter charge that aren't that hard to get into position.

I snipped a bunch here, but you are really stuck on what we lost. I agree, it sucks, but there's a new book and it works. Yeah, we're not stubborn and we die in hand to hand, but we do a lot of other things well still.

edit: I'm trying not to be dismissive of your points. I can't get around the fact that long-range shooting is poor and we aren't stubborn. That's just true. We also are a high KP army. That being said, we have a lot of tools that make us competitive (melta in every slot, scouting razorbacks, choppy as hell HQs, immortal HQs, etc.) and most of those keep people from even looking twice at our troops, allowing us to get the job done.

I'm not the greatest general or the best theory-crafter, but I'll tell you that in my experience and from what I've seen, they just work. We can bemoan what we lost or try to work with what we have. I've been working with what we have and it is good. I do well, I wreck those top tier armies you're talking about. I don't know what else to say.

Heck, take my list, practice with it and run a game with jy2. Or have him run my list and you run something else. Nothing to lose but a game of 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tomb King wrote:I noticed that SoB had an inability to deal with long range shooting it was made blatantly clear when 4 gk dreads were shooting me down relentlessly. However, with the proper flanking maneuvers and the good old look over here while I hit you here still wins the day. Pretre you run 6 flamers in your dominions?? Did you not see how effective melta's can be in that squad? I was taking out 1 to 2 kill points everytime I engaged the enemy with that combo. If the MM fails to get the job done then your dominions are stuck there high and dry.

I tell you what pretre. If you take sisters to ard boyz I will do the same. 2500 points just means I can take my repentia ladies

I run 2 flamers and a combi-melta in my doms in a TL-MM immo. Gotta have something to deal with hordes and even against MEQ, TL flamers are nasty.

I'm thinking 2 Conclaves with Kyrinov and Jacobus, 4 BSS, 3 Exos, 3 Doms and some Celestians/Repentia. Should be entertaining, so make it a deal. I might go crazy and keep Celestine, but then I'll run out of FOC. lol

Sisters haven't changed much for me as of the new WD 'dex. I've always played them differently than everyone else. The build that i play looks similar to the ones people are posting, with a few differences. I usually take 2 serephim and 1 dominion squad, and 2 exos 1 ret squad.
the main difference that i've seen is that a lot of sisters players fail to recognize that sisters, functionally, are a kamikaze army. The way to play them competetivelly is to recognize before hand that they are going to die but can do a decent amount of damage before they bite it. The stars of the show for me usually end up being serephim and HB rets. Rets in the current light tank metagame are brutal for their cost. 85 points for 4 rending heavy bolters + the cost of an immy, makes for an extremely versatile, cost effective unit, and the serephim with all those melta pistol shots (or flamers v. horde) do wonders, before getting shredded.

TBH, the big weakness that i've seen in sisters lists is they can give up a lot of kp. The exo is the biggest help with this, being nearly perfect for snagging late game KP.

Tomb King wrote:Dominions with 4 special weapons???? Its a suicide squad why run them 10 strong?

It's a different play style. 5 Dominions + MM Immo is about the same price as 10 in a Rhino so it's pretty much a straight trade. The MM Immo unit is an alpha strike unit. The Rhino unit trades the first turn strike for the ability to lay down more fire (useful against heavier infantry) and extra bodies to weather a turn of shooting.

Five girls are a suicide unit, and if they have twin melta, they can literally do one thing. That is, pop a vehicle. A full size squad can do a lot of things. With the way I have them built out, I can shoot melta out of the hatch to pop vehicles and when the Rhino gets busted or when I need to bring it, I can hop out and destroy just about anything within 12". I've played a lot of games with my full strength Dominions and never once have I thought "Damn, I wish I had fewer of these!".

I think if they hadn't robbed the Immolator of it's fire points then the 5 girl squad would probably be a no brainer.

pretre wrote:@SabrX: Amerikon covered some of this, but I run 7/2 Uriah Bomb.

As for cover/grenades, that's what the vehicle is for. Tank shock them out of cover. Works all the time.

Tank shock won't work all the time. There's still the issue of the Uriah Bomb's transport getting wrecked/immobilized, which hinders them from "bombing" any units. There's also placement of said units in cover. As I stated up top, 5++/FNP averages to a 3+ save. If they get stuck in the open and shot up at, they may take heavy casualties. If they assault through cover, the Uriah Bomb will take casualties.

Despite having 2+ save and multiple wounds, Saint Celestine can still fail her 4++ save and get insta-gib. She can still come back, but that doesn’t lock enemy units in assault.

Which can be just as good, especially when she comes back on your turn, can shoot and assault again. It is hard to quantify how awesome she is.

But it doesn't address the issue of preventing other SoB unit from being assaulted once the enemy unit is freed from combat.

Sisters of Battle number one weakness is assault. This wasn’t a problem in previous 3rd ed codex where a Canoness or Veteran Sister Superior could purchase Book of St. Lucius and grant 12” stubborn bubble to all friendly units. Now, a Sister squad without stubborn IC can lose combat and potentially wiped out in sweeping advance. It’s ironic that their strength lies in close range shooting. To be effective, they put themselves at risk of getting assaulted.

Don't get out of your vehicle unless forced to. You're stuck on what we lost and not what we have.

I think you are underestimating how the army works. If you get assaulted, you will die. So don't get assaulted. You have units for counter charge that aren't that hard to get into position.

In a mech vs mech battle against a list with superior fire power, mech Sisters don't dictate the battle or choose not to be assaulted. It's difficult to recover after losing majority of transports.

@pretre:

My main argument from jy2's battle report is that Sisters of Battle is not strong enough to beat strong tournament lists. This includes Crowe-Purifer GK, Razor-spam BA and SW, Missile Spam Bjorn Wolves, DE Venom Spam, Leafblower IG, and Wraith-wing Necrons. They may have a chance against Draigo-wing, but that depends whether the opponent is smart enough to prioritize the Uriah Bomb over everything else.

I already have an ideal list, which isn't really different from everyone else. 3 Exorcists, 3 min-Dominion squads inside Rhinos with Meltaguns, Jacob and 5:4 Death Cults to Crusaders inside a Rhinos, and the rest spent in mechanized Battle Sisters. I've also tested my list against jy2's Crowe Purfiers and Necrons. Both times jy2 won in a land slide. I played against Reecius' infamous Bjorn missile spam mech-Wolves using the old Witch Hunter codex. After suffering a huge defeat, I'm certain the new Sisters of Battle won't survive a gunline of that magnitude.

Feel free to post any battle reports of victories over any lists you consider are of the top tournament lists. I'm interested in reading your results.

SabrX wrote:

pretre wrote:@SabrX: Amerikon covered some of this, but I run 7/2 Uriah Bomb.

As for cover/grenades, that's what the vehicle is for. Tank shock them out of cover. Works all the time.

Tank shock won't work all the time. There's still the issue of the Uriah Bomb's transport getting wrecked/immobilized, which hinders them from "bombing" any units. There's also placement of said units in cover. As I stated up top, 5++/FNP averages to a 3+ save. If they get stuck in the open and shot up at, they may take heavy casualties. If they assault through cover, the Uriah Bomb will take casualties.

Despite having 2+ save and multiple wounds, Saint Celestine can still fail her 4++ save and get insta-gib. She can still come back, but that doesn’t lock enemy units in assault.

Which can be just as good, especially when she comes back on your turn, can shoot and assault again. It is hard to quantify how awesome she is.

But it doesn't address the issue of preventing other SoB unit from being assaulted once the enemy unit is freed from combat.

Sisters of Battle number one weakness is assault. This wasn’t a problem in previous 3rd ed codex where a Canoness or Veteran Sister Superior could purchase Book of St. Lucius and grant 12” stubborn bubble to all friendly units. Now, a Sister squad without stubborn IC can lose combat and potentially wiped out in sweeping advance. It’s ironic that their strength lies in close range shooting. To be effective, they put themselves at risk of getting assaulted.

Don't get out of your vehicle unless forced to. You're stuck on what we lost and not what we have.

I think you are underestimating how the army works. If you get assaulted, you will die. So don't get assaulted. You have units for counter charge that aren't that hard to get into position.

In a mech vs mech battle against a list with superior fire power, mech Sisters don't dictate the battle or choose not to be assaulted. It's difficult to recover after losing majority of transports.

@pretre:

My main argument from jy2's battle report is that Sisters of Battle is not strong enough to beat strong tournament lists. This includes Crowe-Purifer GK, Razor-spam BA and SW, Missile Spam Bjorn Wolves, DE Venom Spam, Leafblower IG, and Wraith-wing Necrons. They may have a chance against Draigo-wing, but that depends whether the opponent is smart enough to prioritize the Uriah Bomb over everything else.

I already have an ideal list, which isn't really different from everyone else. 3 Exorcists, 3 min-Dominion squads inside Rhinos with Meltaguns, Jacob and 5:4 Death Cults to Crusaders inside a Rhinos, and the rest spent in mechanized Battle Sisters. I've also tested my list against jy2's Crowe Purfiers and Necrons. Both times jy2 won in a land slide. I played against Reecius' infamous Bjorn missile spam mech-Wolves using the old Witch Hunter codex. After suffering a huge defeat, I'm certain the new Sisters of Battle won't survive a gunline of that magnitude.

Feel free to post any battle reports of victories over any lists you consider are of the top tournament lists. I'm interested in reading your results.

I just posted a tournament report where I took down dual lash csm & 4 dread GK's with my SoB and my army had room for improvement on the competitive side. The army can compete with the top armies its just the room for error is much smaller. I will extend you the same offer I did jy2, a game on vassal you pick ur army and build ur list and I will knock it down a majority of the time with the sisters. Not saying im unbeatable by any means but the army will at the very least give ur list a run for its money.

So far after playing SOB with the new dex, Kyrinov is the real star. I'm running 2 conclaves and it's the fearless bubble that is making sob all but unbeatable in H2H.

Most combats are my sisters squads taking the charge from the enemy and taking losses. Sister squads do not get wiped out on the charge (loving the 6++) and WITH FEARLESS survive till my turn. Now you have to think about positioning and set it up, but it is really not that hard to hide a DCA rhino behind a SoB rhino. In your turn you hit them with the dca trailing Kyrinov. You don't need grenades if the enemy is in combat already.

Last week I had 2 battle squads of 10 get charged by a 5 man incubi squad with archon and a 10 man wyche unit. My units were fearless and took losses but both units held due to fearless. Kyrinov was close and in my turn the dca/crusader squad assualted the wyches and incubi. I left kyrinov in the rhino. I won combat but he held. I broke him in his turn (he had just his archon and 1 incubi left) and let him run off the board. I had 1 crusader and 5 dca left. Kyrinov was untouched. My sisters took a beating but lasted till the 3 round of combat.

This is happening in every game i play. Only army in H2H I fear is GK DCA spam. Grenades for the win.

FYI i'm currently stripping and repainting my SoB for the summer tournaments. The Bugeater GT in Omaha will be the first one they get played at. I'm liking the current dex and hope they add units but keep the current feel of this one.

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:So far after playing SOB with the new dex, Kyrinov is the real star. I'm running 2 conclaves and it's the fearless bubble that is making sob all but unbeatable in H2H.

Most combats are my sisters squads taking the charge from the enemy and taking losses. Sister squads do not get wiped out on the charge (loving the 6++) and WITH FEARLESS survive till my turn. Now you have to think about positioning and set it up, but it is really not that hard to hide a DCA rhino behind a SoB rhino. In your turn you hit them with the dca trailing Kyrinov. You don't need grenades if the enemy is in combat already.

Last week I had 2 battle squads of 10 get charged by a 5 man incubi squad with archon and a 10 man wyche unit. My units were fearless and took losses but both units held due to fearless. Kyrinov was close and in my turn the dca/crusader squad assualted the wyches and incubi. I left kyrinov in the rhino. I won combat but he held. I broke him in his turn (he had just his archon and 1 incubi left) and let him run off the board. I had 1 crusader and 5 dca left. Kyrinov was untouched. My sisters took a beating but lasted till the 3 round of combat.

This is happening in every game i play. Only army in H2H I fear is GK DCA spam. Grenades for the win.

FYI i'm currently stripping and repainting my SoB for the summer tournaments. The Bugeater GT in Omaha will be the first one they get played at. I'm liking the current dex and hope they add units but keep the current feel of this one.

So your running two conclaves does that include uriah and kyrinov or just kyrinov and a regular confessor hq? Also how do you handle kill points my 2k list has 21?

@Tomb King:

Read your battle report. Congrats placing second and potentially 1st if you remembered tertiary in the last game.

However, I wouldn't consider second and third list you played to be competitive. Havocs are seldom seen and are extremely expensive. The GK list was more of a Coteaz henchman list than Psycannon + Psyrifle dread spam list that I'm used to seeing. The first list was borderline competitive. If your opponent dropped the Vindicator, Bezerkers, and added more Oblits and small mechanized Plague Marines with Meltaguns, then it definitely would be one of the traditional competitive builds (perhaps tier 2).

Nevertheless, well done.

As of now, I'm on hiatus, focusing on my studies. Perhaps when Spring break rolls by and jy2 is free, I could play more test games with my Sisters of Battle. I may even re-install old V files and take your offer in a 1v1 showdown.

@Inquisitor_Dunn:

I'm glad someone else other than me has tried using kyrinov. The fearless 12" bubble (6" radius) fixes a lot of Sisters of Battle underlying weakness in assault. Two Battle Conclaves is an interesting idea. I'll have to try it some day.

Yeah, I'm really curious about the dual conclaves. Kyrinov in a vehicle leaves a really big bubble of protection.

I was actually planning on taking Kyrinov and a priest for a 9 man DCA (5)/Crusader (4) squad. That way I don't need to sacrifice Kyrinov's utility if I need to use the Battle Conclave.

@SabrX: It is sad because I don't know that I will ever play against the type of list you are talking about or the caliber of player. My family life keeps me from GTs for the most part, so I only do local RTT.

Also, if you're going to go Rhinos for your Doms, go full squad size. Otherwise it is generally better to take TL-MM immos.

If I remember correctly, and this is meant in the best way possible, in the game that was posted against jy2, you made some reaaaally big mistakes that cost you the game. I think that was the deathray game where you lined your vehicles up for him. It also seemed to me like you were trying to play the old codex, which you can't do anymore.

The new book requires new thinking to work. You can't play it like C:WH.

While I agree there are some interesting new tools/units for a SoB army, their real weakness imo is in that troops slot.

At 1850 points and 2 troop units, I would neutralize those scouted immolators (to get a can't shoot effect or better on it with a Krak Missile you need 1.5 hits which takes 2.25 shots). Once they can't shoot, the flamers can be ignore for the short term. Then it is just a matter of breaking open other Rhinos (the key to beating SoB has always been to completely ignore the Exorcists).

I think a real issue for the Immos is they can only move 6" and shoot, which also makes assault a viable mechanism to break them apart, especially if you charge them with the intent of glancing them to death.

SabrX did play the new SoB like the old ones in that game against Necrons and it made the result worse than it could have been.

That said, I do not disagree with most of his points. Comparing to the old codex emphasizes how the SoB weaknesses are worse now than they previously were. The real question is what did they gain in power to make up for it? Scouting Doms and an Assault unit, the issue being the role of that Assault unit was pretty well filled before if you took a Canoness with Celestian Retinue (or even a Jump Pack Canoness) so that really leaves just the scouting.

I took the old SoB book to a GT 2 years ago, I went 5-1 (I lost to BoLS Darkwynn in round one...it was brutal...). I really don't think I could replicate that with the new book, again the reason being the troop choices. I took 4 BSS to that tournament for troops @1850, 2 troop units at that level are not enough, but BSS are just so bad now...

calypso2ts wrote:While I agree there are some interesting new tools/units for a SoB army, their real weakness imo is in that troops slot.

No disagreement.

At 1850 points and 2 troop units, I would neutralize those scouted immolators (to get a can't shoot effect or better on it with a Krak Missile you need 1.5 hits which takes 2.25 shots). Once they can't shoot, the flamers can be ignore for the short term. Then it is just a matter of breaking open other Rhinos (the key to beating SoB has always been to completely ignore the Exorcists).

Smoked, remember. I completely disagree with ignoring Exorcists. If my exorcists are alive at the end of the game, my opponent has lost.

I think a real issue for the Immos is they can only move 6" and shoot, which also makes assault a viable mechanism to break them apart, especially if you charge them with the intent of glancing them to death.

True, but also keep in mind that shaken turns into a 12" move, etc. I might sac a shot from the immo to get a shot from the Doms closer in, etc.

That said, I do not disagree with most of his points. Comparing to the old codex emphasizes how the SoB weaknesses are worse now than they previously were. The real question is what did they gain in power to make up for it? Scouting Doms and an Assault unit, the issue being the role of that Assault unit was pretty well filled before if you took a Canoness with Celestian Retinue (or even a Jump Pack Canoness) so that really leaves just the scouting.

I completely disagree with this point. A flying canoness or canoness with CR were an attrition unit, not a killy unit. Celestine matches the Flying Canoness roll as an attrition unit, but the Uriah Bomb is something we have not had since redemptionists (a super killy unit that eats things it is thrown at).

I took the old SoB book to a GT 2 years ago, I went 5-1 (I lost to BoLS Darkwynn in round one...it was brutal...). I really don't think I could replicate that with the new book, again the reason being the troop choices. I took 4 BSS to that tournament for troops @1850, 2 troop units at that level are not enough, but BSS are just so bad now...

I think the difference with SoB is that 2-3 Troops at 1750-1850 works because people are dumb to shoot at your troops. If they are shooting at your troops, you either are already tabled or they are going to lose. Basically, the troops are the least important part of your list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you are stuck on the two troops at 1850, swap out the Celestians for a third troop. It is an easy swap that gives roughly the same utility. I'm thinking of doing it myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: 1850, you can run this which is stronger in troops and holding points. Celestians are just filler basically anyways.

Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 9 Henchmen (7 DCA, 2 Crusaders)- Rhino (Dozer)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Chainsword - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
1845


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@calypso2ts: thinking about it this morning, I'm thinking I will go with the 3 BS version. I don't know what I was thinking with just 2 troops at 1850. Thanks!

One thing they could of done is perhaps make a few of the HQ's especially the the named one's toughness 4. For example: It doesnt make sense the vindicare assassins are tougher then a living saint or that a regular battle sister can endure as much pain as Uriah or Celestine. This would help significantly lower all the instant death the armies hq choices take.

"Especially"? Isn't the Canoness useless enough yet?

(considering she actually used to be T4 in the earliest days ...)

It's funny how - meltas aside - the most useful units in the SoB army are not actually part of the Order but clerics and their retinue, and the Saint of course.