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Made in gb
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





United Kingdom

Howdy Folks

I have seen many a thread regarding how to play salamanders lists effictively and what units to use etc, but i have only seen them arise every now and then and only with certain units in mind. After gathering and using most of the information i have seen, i decided to colate it into one thread, which hopefully points out useful tips, tricks and tactics.

Firstly, its good to mention i will be using the Vanilla Marines Codex. Bit of a no-brainer, but just making sure everyone knows I will leave some units out, when i come to analysing each, some will be unappropriate for a Salamanders list (e.g. Marneus). Things will be mentioned as if using a 1500 point list.

Secondly, If there is anything i have missed, or said wrong, or you have a different idea of the unit, just say. If i thing its worthy of use, i will include it here and referance who ever suggested it.

So, without further ado, here is the HQs:
Spoiler:

Vulkan. After all, it is a salamanders list. At 190 points, your getting alot. A Master Crafted Relic Blade (re-roll hits, S6, power weapon), a Twin Linked Heavy Flamer, 2+ armour save and 3+ invuln. Not to mention his ability to make all Flamer, melta, thnuderhammer weapons re-roll their hits. As for his stat line, 6 5 4 4 3 5 3 10 2+, its actually rather awesome. 3 attacks, base, with WS 6 (3+ with re-rolls - against MEQ) and S6 relic blade (2+ ignoring armour saves to wound - against MEQ). Your killing 2 out of 3 almost every time. In return, MEQs attack Vulkan, they got a 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound. Thats not great, from Vulkans POV, but his 2+ armour save will almost always protect you, and 3++ for that occassional power weapon you might encounter. Now, in a vulkan army, you should be running a suitable amount of Flamer / Melta / Hammer. Although some people will dispute this, i would say, be sure to include 2, maybe 3 longer ranged weapons. Whether thats ML or Lascannons, thats your choice, but pimping out all of your units with Flamer / Melta / Hammer will seriously cripple your ranged capabilities. Those few ML / Lascannons will enable you to get a little head start on tank busting in turn 1 & 2, where most of your melta will be out of range. My advice for taking these ML and LC is, do it cheaply. There is no point spending x amount of points a Dev Squad full of Lascannons, because that is overkill for a Vulkan army, a ML in a tactical squad (then combat squad it) will suffice, they are free ML and take out one of your Troop Choices. Thats Vulkan for you, in a nut shell. He IS pricey, so only 1500 point and up should consider him, although in smaller armys his is fun, but points become a harder squeeze.

Space Marine Librarians are the next best thing. If your taking a Librarian with Vulkan, or as your sole HQ, they are definatly worth it. In terms of upgrades, TDA is a must. The lack of an Invuln will be devastating. Also, it makes good company for TH/SS termies in a LR. I wouldn't worry too much about a gun, after all you have your psychic powers to be shooting. But a storm shield could be handy. It would definately make your librarian harder to kill. I would advise a SS only if the Librarian is travelling alone. If he is in a group of TH/SS termies, then you can do a little wound allocation off of your librarian, should they be unfortunate enough to get a melta to the face. Epistolary upgrade should only be taken with certain Psychic Powers. If you have two shooting powers, there is no point because you can only shoot one per turn, but if you have GoI/ The Avenger (for example) it can become handy. GoI in the movement phase and The Avenger in the shooting phase. As for what Psychic Powers, its a very personal choice. Smite is good against MEQ because of its AP2, but it has strength 4, so its a bit meh against tougher armies. Force Dome, well, its great if you have a Librarian without Terminator Armour, in a non-terminator unit, but other than that, not necessary. Machine Curse is a great ability, an automatic glancing hit. That would really slow down your opponent. However, it is, after all a glancing hit, and there are other more useful abilities out there. The Avenger is great. Its template, so, if there is a unit perfectly aligned to be covered by a template, the S5 and AP3 will take them out. This combined with GoI, will allow you the mobility to get into place for the template drop. I always laugh when i read the rules for Quickening, because when i initially read it, i assumed it applied to the unit too. Thinking this, i wanted it for a TH/SS terminator unit. Having realised the mistake, i face-palmed :(. Quickening is just one of those abilities you should just skip over. Null Zone is great! re-roll successful enemy invuln saves, YES PLEASE! Might of the Ancients isn't that great, S6 means you can only glance av12, and whats the chance of catching up with vehicle av11 and below? no real need for this ability. GoI is great if you cant afford a transport for your terminators, you can use that to get them around. Vortex of Doom is great on paper, but not necessarily in practise. 12" isn't a great range, especially as it can scatter back on you and ID you. There are other better choices.

As for the HQ choices, i only really have experiance with those two. If you want to take something else, go for it. But if your not going to take Vulkan, can i ask why your reading a Salamander's tactica?


Tactics are long and tiresome to explain, but if your still with me, we are on to troops
Spoiler:

The basic troop choice for 1500 should be Tactical Squads, of ten men. A basic 10 man squad should get you to 170 points. Whats great about tactical squads in a Vulkan list is that the flamer and MM are free upgrades for the squad (providing you have 10 men). Remember when i was discussing range in the Vulkan entry? Here is a great place to pick up a Missile Launcher. Its free and you can combat squad so the other half of the squad isnt wasted. If your taking the Flamer and MM load out, your transport choice should be Rhino. 10 men can sit inside and shoot out. Thus providing plenty of protection for the men. Giving the 24" range of the MM, you will need to be fairly mobile, a tank can offer both protection and additional movement. However, if your taking the Flamer and ML load out, there is no need for a 10 man transport, a RB with Heavy Bolter will suffice. the Flamer half can ride in the RB while the ML half can sit in cove on a objective and provide that crucial ranged support. In terms of the Sergeant, your going to want something useful on him, in terms of CC. Power Weapons are great, in that they give no armour saves and are relatively cheap. But Power Fists are great, they give that added bonus of S8 to really give your squad a kick. As for a weapon, a bolter will be sufficient in the Flamer + MM load out, as what ever armour that will come your way will be dealt with by the MM from the rhino. But in the Flamer + ML squad, the flamer combat squad in a HB RB will not be able to deal with tanks well, so a combi melta could be worth it just in case you run into a tank. One shot might not be worth it, but with the increased reliability of Vulkans re-rolls, its looking a pretty attractive choice.
At 1500 points, you should be looking at 2 Tactical Squads of either of those two stated load outs. If you get one each, the squad in the rhino with MM can sit on an objective and repell any tanks entering into your 24" bubble. and the other load out is more 'assaulty' in terms of weapons and load out.

Scouts at 1500 points aren't really worth it. I only take scouts in smaller games to save on points, but if you want to take them, here is some general advice. If your taking Sniper Rifles, use camo cloaks too. If not, then, each should have Bolt pistol + CCW. so when combat inevitable comes, they get the advantage of +1 close combat weapon. On the sergearnt, Combi Melta is worth it for tanks. Scouts aren't really that high on the enemy priority list, so with a bit of skill + luck, you can get relativly close to a tank. Power fist is good for CC, but if your taking scouts to save points, then 25 points on a weapon in a squad that WILL die is stupid.
IF you are taking scouts for point saving purposes, Sniper Rifles and camo cloaks are the best option


So far we have covered HQ and troops, at 1500 points, you should be looking to take 1 Solid HQ and 2 all round good troops with transport.

Now Elites, at 1500 points, 1 Elite unit is a must and an optional one if points allow.
Spoiler:

Terminators squads should be ignored. 200 points + better guns, not really worth it in a Vulkan List.
Terminator Assault Squads are a must. 200 points for 5 TH/SS beasts? feth yea! Now with vulkans reroll hits on THs, its going to bring most enemies to their knees. You should definately consider a land raider for these bad boys (More on LR laters). If your taking the Terminator Assault Squad with its mandatory (well, not mandatory but highly advised) LR, they should be your only elite choice. You just dont have the points to fork out on any more. But, they will be really hard to shift. 10 S8 attacks (albeit I1) ignoring armour saves is going to rip a hole anywhere. And with their 2+ and 3++ saves, they are gonna keep swinging.

Sternguard Veteran Squads, my personal faviourate in the Vanilla Codex. As for their weapon upgrades, none! All should remain bolter / combi weapon. You are paying those extra points for their specialised ammo, and taking a flamer is just stupid. So, combi weapons are great to get around their lack of specialised fire power. Combi-melta or -flamer should be your choices, as both have rerolls with vulkans ability. And, at 5 points per combi-weapon, giving a squad of 5 meltas gives you 5 melta shots for 25 points. awesome! As for close combat weapons, i wouldn't bother. If your using your sternguard right, you shouldn't be hitting combat with any enemies. And if you do, you should have blown them away enough that your base line attacks are sufficient to get through the remaining enemies. Now, sternguard out in the open are a going to get killed, no question. So a transport is highly advised. Although a drop pod can take them where needed first turn, and allow 5 combi melta shots into a LR on first turn is devastating. A drop pod will then leave them unprotected for the rest of the game. I would advise a rhino (over a razorback and as a personal prefence above the drop pod) as they are 35 points, not too expensive, and allow you to shoot out. 185 points for a sternguard vet squad using the advised load out. 150 for the 5 vets + combi weapons, and 35 for the rhino. Cheaper than the terminators and have better ranged capabilities.

Dreadnoughts. So many choices! Venerable, normal or Iron Clad? Want anti-tank? Iron Clad, is your best bet. Built in melta gun, and siesmic hammer / chainfist. They are great. Expect for their delivery method. Drop pod, takes them to the front line on turn 1, but they cant assault and make the most of their CCWs. Run them to the tanks? they will get shot to bits. What about a normal dreadnought? well lets see, 105 points for a MM, and a DCCW. Reasonable. combined armour of 34. Reasonable. Super effective at shooting after leaving a drop pod. Great. 140 points for delivering a Multi Melta to the front lines, with av 12 on front and side (relativly tough), and a reroll to hit with the MM. Thats great. If however, your looking to take my advice regarding ranged attack (see vulkans entry) then a Dreadnough is great for this too! You can give it a ML for +10 and a TWLC for +30 (yeah, the LC is expensive, but you could even go with Autocannon for your point saving) and allow it to stay back and cover your army as they move into the 24" range of MMs. Venerable dreadnoughts aren't really good for their points. Yes they are more or less the same as vanilla dreadnoughs, but if you ask the opponent to reroll the result of a damage vehicle, you might even blow your self up. not good.
I would definately say Normal Dreadnoughts if you chose to use one. Load out is your choice, but in the past when i have used them, i have always opted for a ranged dreadnought.

I will discuss Techmarines in the TFC entry a little later on.

There you have it, the most appropriate Elite choices for a Salamanders army. Personally, i think at 1500 points, and with Vulkan, it should always be TH/SS termies.

Now Fast Attacks
Spoiler:

Assault Squads, pfft. With the same stat line as a Tactical Marine, but for more points, they are not worth it. Not only can they not be transported (and so risk being shot up), they cant assault out of their deep strike either, meaning they will be shot up instead. I'd advise against these.

Vanguard Veterans: Here comes the fun! (for a hell of a big cost). I have used them in a group of 5, i have a Relic Blade, 2 LCs and 1 Power Weapon, all with Jump Packs. When i used them, they wiped out a squad on the turn of deep striking. But believe me, once your oponent truely sees how bad ass the unit is, they will be put on the top of the list to be killed. They are definately expensive, no doubt about it. But should you find room for them in your army, go wild. whats the point of 175 points for a 5 man squad that can assault out of deep strike if your not going to bring awesome CCWs? However, only use in a friendly game. They will kill a few units, but will cripple your list point wise.

Land Speeders, in a Vulkan list? I know, i know, its not 'fluffy'. But its AWESOME! They can take a Heavy Flamer and a MM for 70 points! Take as many as you feel you need. They are awesome. I have 2 in each army list i make. But the golden rule is: Never make them a squadron. 2 Seperate speeders EACH TIME. in a squadron, rolls of 4+ on the vehicle damage chart destroy them, so no squadrons. Although they can Deep Strike in, and MM what ever tanks are near, i find them better to move flat out, getting the cover save and then MM tanks the next turn. Land Speeders with the HF + MM loadout are a MUST. 2 Atleast, 3 completely fills your FA slot, but 2 is effective. When using them on the table, keep them near each other. No point in one on the left side of the table and the other on the right. Both must be at the same place to back each other up.
Remember, 2 MM + HF Land Speeders!

Im going to skip the Bike squad, Scout bike squad and the LSS. They dont bring anything major to the Vulkan List.

But attack bike Squads do! 50 points for a highly mobile MM, with T5 and 2 wounds? TAKE IT! Not to mention you can have 3 attack bikes in each squad, meaning 3 MM shots, 3 TL bolter shots, T5, 6 attacks in CC and a huge movement. You are stupid not to consider them! They can blast up the table, getting cover saves from moving flat out, and will reck every tank it meets. And for 150 points. They are the cheapest MM you will get! So make use of them!

To sum up Fast Attack, the idea Fast Attack shout look something like this: Land Speeder w/ MM + HF, Land Speeder w/ MM + HF, Attack bike Squad (3men) w/ MM. for a grand total of 290 points. 5 highly mobile MMs. Just what a Vulkan list needs.


Now, that all important Heavy Support.
Spoiler:

Devastator Squads aren't really worth it. There are much better things open to choose from in the HS section than these. Unless they are able to split fire (*gives evil stare to Space Wolves*) they should be ignored.

Thundefire Cannons. Well. One word really. AWESOME! 4 Blast markers each turn, with 60" range and S6... for 100 points!!! Now i said i would discuss the techmarine here too. Well, a techmarine with a Servo-harness costs 75 points. you get one with a TFC for 100 points total (meaning the cannon costs 25 points!!!). Although you can chose to shoot with the cannon OR techmarine, you still have bolster defences and the other abilities to use when the cannon gets destroyed. At 1500 points, a TFC is definately advised. Its cheap, can deal with massed infantry really, really well and destroy the occassional light tank (av 10 or 11). One for the list here boys!

Ahh, the humble LR, but which one? Lascannons, Hurricane Bolters or Flamers? well. Its up to you to decide. The LRR doesn't benifit from Vulkan's special Ability, so no obligation there. The only thing that benifits from Vulkans ability is the optional MM to put on the top. Remember when i was talking about having 2 or 3 ranged weapons in the army, so you dont totally rely on MM in Close range. What about the LC on the vanilla LR? you can always shoot 1 wep due to POTMS, so they can blast away as your moving up to drop off your termies. LRC are also good, TLAC and hurricane bolters are putting out alot of shots, not to mention 16 transport capacity. But the redeemer is more fluffy? and anyway, if your up in their face, there is going to be plenty to flame, regardless of lack of rerolls. Personally i run the LRC, what which land raider is up to you, i will however, suggest a MM for the top, in all cases.

Predators are great for taking that long ranged slot that is so desperately needed in the Vulkan lists. Keep the autocannon, making it useful against elite infantry and light tanks, but adding the las sponsons. 120 for 2 Lascannons and an Autocannon. That gives you a nice fire base. But again, they dont fully mesh with a Vulkan list (lack of meltas cause this). If you want to stick with the vulkan list, then over look the predators.

Whirlwinds are cheap, but not that great.

Vindicators are great, S10 Ap1 pie plates, who could ask for better? But they attract alot of fire power, and are only good in twos. If running vulkan, avoid and take something more firey.


So there you have it, 2 hours and 3 thousand words later, you have my Tactics for a Salamanders list. Most of this is constructed from personal experiance, so what you might think will often be different to what i have said. And, this is by no means a list of 'How to play with Salamanders'. Just friendly advice, if you disagree with something fine, leave it out, but if you never though of something i have addressed, great! you learn something knew every day.

Remember, back at the top of the thread, i said if there are any changes, reccomendations or what ever else that should be altered, just let me know and i'll change it if i see fit.
Thanks for taking the time to read
And good luck with your Salamanders lists in the future!

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/02/14 11:37:33


   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

wow, nicely done

Good read overall. I'm actually tempted to finish building my AOBR marines to try something like this now. Thanks for the write up. (great, now I gotta go get some land raiders lol)

+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in gb
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





United Kingdom

Thanks

Haha, buying and building land raiders are the easy part. Painting it is the mind-numbing part

   
Made in se
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant



Lost in the warp while searching for a new codex

Nice work. Some things:

TH&SS Termies are not near mandatory in a Vulcan list imo. Especially not in a 1500pts list. Assuming you bring Vulcan, 5TH&SS Termies and a LR then you are looking at ~half your points in one unit. And as soon as you lose 2 or 3 hammers they are pretty much done for.

Also, you can not move and fire a MM even if you are embarked. That said Vulcan list do melta bunkers awesomely well. 10xTacticals, MM, Mg and Combi-M. Sitting inside a Rhino you now have nice area denial unit (take two)

Sternguards are nice indeed in a Vulcan list.

Personally tho I will not fork out for Vulcan unless Im playing 2k. At 1500pts you can have a hard time bringing enough melta to justify Vulcan instead of the awesome Libby

I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time.
15k
10k  
   
Made in gb
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





United Kingdom

tedurur wrote:

Also, you can not move and fire a MM even if you are embarked


oops Edited to fix that

As for bringing TH/SS and LR, yes the points are alot, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't bring it. It just means you have to balance the points in the rest of the list really well. Like HF + MM LS for 70 points, TFC for 100 points. So having big expensive units doesn't make too much of a difference, you got to make sure every other point is well spent.

   
Made in se
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant



Lost in the warp while searching for a new codex

Zambro wrote:
tedurur wrote:

Also, you can not move and fire a MM even if you are embarked


oops Edited to fix that

As for bringing TH/SS and LR, yes the points are alot, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't bring it. It just means you have to balance the points in the rest of the list really well. Like HF + MM LS for 70 points, TFC for 100 points. So having big expensive units doesn't make too much of a difference, you got to make sure every other point is well spent.


Thats kind of a strange logic tho? Why not make sure that every point is well spent? The main drawback with TH&SS termies is that they lack any real duality. They do one thing and they do it really well. That is beat the living snot out of MCs and most other death stars. If the opponent lacks anything of that it is most often 460pts of meh. At 2k it can be worth it, at 1500 not so much. Especially seeing how assuming you bring some long range AT (like 2 ACLC Preds) With Vulcan and 2 bare bones tactical squads you would be looking at 200pts left to spend on Meltas and flamers that can be twin linked. At that point it is better to drop Vulcan and take a Libby instead. The Libby makes the termies better than Vulcan and provides nice psy defence and Vulcans CC ability is not really necessary since you already have your TH&SS.

If you on the other hand drop the Termies than you can have lots of MM and flamers in addition to a little long range AT making Vulcan a better investment. Vulcan is a force multiplier so without a force to multiply he is nothing more than a Captain that makes you lose combat tactics in exchange for TL a few meltas and flamers.

I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time.
15k
10k  
   
Made in us
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker






I agree with most of the tactics here however I disagree with you opinion of vindicators. 115 pts for a s10 ap2 large pie plate is wonderful. And you can use it to force your opponent to split fire between it and your L increasing Both their survivabity. I also always take termi squads, although I got 3 TH/SS and 2 LC termis. That way in cc I get i5 s6 attacks for mid tier mobs, s4 i4 attacks for lower tier, then the TH attacks for hothouse (i dont know why autocorrect put that sord there bu i like it) big beefy monsters and vehicles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/13 16:05:01


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

This is a solid primer for vulkan/salamander players, especially those working toward a tool box style marine list. Meshes with my own opinions and views, although I think getting a bit more long range fire via preds, razors, rifledreads, typhoons, etc is worthwhile even with the loss in vulkan affected spam. Without it, you are forced into the jaws of certain matchups and twinlinked or no, you will get rocked. This is in regards to 2k lists though -- at 1500-1850 you don't have as much wiggle room, but also less need for long range fire.

What isn't mentioned is various ways folks exploit vulkan's rules in a less tool box, more focused list (what others may call one trick pony, rock lists, etc -- and others may call more competitive compared to the tool box list). The dual landraider/terminator list, the vulkan bike army, speeder/attack bike spammers, vulkan dread spam, etc. These are the kind of lists that tend to draw folks to Salamanders (or more specifically Vulkan), so its worth going into.

snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."

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Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Glendale, AZ

I'm going to disagree with your assessment that Bike Squads "dont bring anything major to the Vulkan List." What they bring is mobility to Short ranged weapons. Add in that everything that applies to Attack Bikes applies to regular bikes and there's nothing not to love about Salamander bikes. 8 bikes with 2xMG, and an Attack Bike with MM can be combat squaded for two fast anti Tank/MC units, or instead use 2xFlamers and a HB for two anti infantry units. Or mix and match for real CS versatility. The fact that the bolters are also TL'd makes anti infantry bike squads a real threat to horde units and MEQ alike. I know everybody and their brother thinks that Librarians are a must, but i've never run one that did anything special, however a captain on a bike plus Vulkan makes SM Bike Troops a real force to reckon with.

IMHO Vulkan is a much better choice for bike lists than Khan.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/13 18:58:28


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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

Nice job, Zambro.

A few typos or clarifications:

Under your scouts entry. "If not, then, each should have Bolter + CCW. so when combat inevitable comes, they get the advantage of +1 close combat weapon." I believe that you meant that to be Bolt Pistol + CCW, as a bolter + a CCW will not grant you the additional attack in close combat.

Under Vulcan's entry, there are two mentions of re-rolling hits "re-roll hits" and "3+ with re-rolls". Master Crafted close combat weapons only grant one reroll per "round" or player turn of close combat. Just a minor point, and perhaps not one you were trying to make.

Also under Vulcan "...to make all Flamer, melta, thnuderhammer weapons re-roll their hits." You're probably just lumping the benefits together, but a master crafted flamer rerolls to-wounds, not to-hits. Also, as mentioned, you only get to reroll 1 missed to-hit for each thunderhammer per round from Master Crafted, so be sure to roll the attacks separately for each terminator.

Under speeders: " i find them better to move flat out, getting the cover save and then MM tanks." I don't think you're implying it, but remember that if you move flat out you can't shoot that turn.

Now for the tactica part.

Attack Bikes. I agree that they are a very cheap source of MM, but don't forget that they are T4(5). A krak missile will double them out, so use them wisely. turbo-boost into position, then hug cover to blast at enemy tanks.

Vanguard Vets. By the time you kit out a vanguard vet squad, you could have purchased 5 assault terminators. Yes, the vanguards can assault the turn they land, but you need to get them into position. Where are your locator beacons? They will scatter half of the time, and could be lost or placed by the enemy if you scatter onto something. They can also scatter too far away to assault. Not something you can count on.

Assault Marines. Yes, they can't assault if they deepstrike in. However, they can get flamers into the enemy's face fairly quickly. Still, I've never found them to be that effective.

Fast Attack " Land Speeder w/ MM + HF, Land Speeder w/ MM + HF, Attack bike Squad (3men) w/ MM. for a grand total of 290 points. 5 highly mobile MMs. " I do think these are effective, but I always question the MM +HF load out. I know if gives you flexibility, but you'll only ever get use out of one weapon at a time. Flaming a troop squad and tossing in the melta should get you 1 extra dude, but is it worth it for the points. Also, any tank you NEED the MM for isn't going to be effected by the flamer. I'd just run them as MM and forget the flamer.


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in ph
Utilizing Careful Highlighting





Manila, Philippines

I'm a supporter of Scouts in a LSS w MM, sarge has combi-melta and PF. Great harassment and distraction unit, forces your opponent to change his usual deployment due to outflaking or first turn charge shenanigans. It can harass static long range stuff like artillery, long fangs and such, pop vehicles quite early and reliably and be a minor pain in the ass.


 
   
Made in gb
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





United Kingdom

@ Kronk Thanks for pointing out some blundering errors. i have changed them / made them a bit clearer.
Also, as for the HF + MM loadout on the speeders, its for maximum durability. When writing lists, you not going to know exactly what you'll be up against. And it would be ironic if you kit your speeders out with MMs when, you infact face a footsloggin list. With HF + MM, you are able to dance between anti-tank and -infantry.

@heartserenade Scouts are a good distraction when you put it like that, but how many point have you put into a highly delicate unit, which will be wiped out turn 2/3. Surely those points can be put to better use?

@warhawkstriker What i was implying is that Vindicators are huge fire magnets. Yes, they will dish out the hurt. But only a naive enemy will ignore them. Meaning, your looking at dead vindicators in a few turns

   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Zambro wrote:@ Kronk Thanks for pointing out some blundering errors. i have changed them / made them a bit clearer.
Also, as for the HF + MM loadout on the speeders, its for maximum durability. When writing lists, you not going to know exactly what you'll be up against. And it would be ironic if you kit your speeders out with MMs when, you infact face a footsloggin list. With HF + MM, you are able to dance between anti-tank and -infantry.

@heartserenade Scouts are a good distraction when you put it like that, but how many point have you put into a highly delicate unit, which will be wiped out turn 2/3. Surely those points can be put to better use?

@warhawkstriker What i was implying is that Vindicators are huge fire magnets. Yes, they will dish out the hurt. But only a naive enemy will ignore them. Meaning, your looking at dead vindicators in a few turns


Theme on vindicator, LS storm and scouts, MM speeders and MM bikes is that all these will be advancing fast at the same time. Idea is to swamp them with targets so something gets through to do it's stuff. No one disagrees that the vindie is a massive target, but if you have plenty of meltas in range already your opponents shooting priortiy may change and the vindie has a chance to get in unmolested.

"We didn't underestimate them but they were a lot better than we thought."
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Zambro wrote:

@heartserenade Scouts are a good distraction when you put it like that, but how many point have you put into a highly delicate unit, which will be wiped out turn 2/3. Surely those points can be put to better use?


A unit does not need to survive in order to be effective. It just needs to do its job. LSS with scouts will:

1) Force your opponent to take them into consideration when deploying because you can charge them turn one or outflank later on. This already throws a wrench on the opponent's plan.

2) Harass vulnerable units and vehicles, and in the case of vehicles, kill them reliably. Sure, you might feel that you "don't get your points back" when you're popping transports and the like, but it doesn't have to make its points back to be effective as long as it is tactically relevant. Like blowing up a rhino full of sternguard on your enemy's deployment zone: sure, you just killed 35 points but that sternguard squad will be delayed in shooting a rain of death on the rest of your army. You can disable long fangs, artillery, blow up landraiders and so on and so forth. It really depends on the situation and how your opponent deploys, but there would almost always be a target that's worth it.

3) Block movement early on.

4) Late game objective grabbing. They would be low on your opponent's target priority list and you can always contest and claim an objective with them.

So what if they do die (and they most oftenly do)? Close ranged speeders would almost always die anyway: why would you dismiss LSS and think MM/HF speeders are awesome, yet the MM/HF speeder dies just as easily? As long as they did what they have to do (and maybe some more if they survive) you're good to go.


 
   
 
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