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So here's the thing. I have roughly 1500 points of painted usable models of the Chaos Space Marines. I've never played a tournament and have limited experience, but I have played a few different styles so far (I borrowed tanks for one of them).

My huge question is what idea is more sound. Here's my "core" of my army that I first painted and always use. I only own three rhinos and no other tanks of any kind. I've borrowed various types though.
CORE:
x2 DP, wings
x10 CSM, x2 flm, IoCG, Rhino
x10 CSM, x2 melta, IoCG, Rhino
x8 Zerks, Champ+PW, Meltabombs, Icon, Rhino, 243
TOTAL:923

LIST ONE
with the last 600ish points....Now I've used rhino/tank spam and the strategy of throwing vehicles at the enemy only seems to work if you have the ability to "annihilate" from your tanks (Which CSM can't IMO).
My first 1500 army (borrowed tanks)
ABOVE CORE UNITS +
x2 Preds / SS heavy bolter 200
x1 Vindicator w/ /Demonic Possession 145
x16 Summoned Lesser Daemons (two squads) 208
TOTAL total: 1476
note: I've faced Blood Angels and Space Wolves often, and it's just crummy when they tank spank me with a gazillion razorbanks and more efficiently priced tanks.

LIST TWO
My second list is my personal choice

ABOVE CORE UNITS +
x8 Chosen, x3 Meltaguns, Icon
x8 Chosen, x3 Meltaguns, Icon :368
x16 Summoned Lesser Daemons (two squads) 208
(Infiltrate!!!!!!)
TOTAL total: 1499

So yeah, what does dakka think? Strategy for an all-comers list? Tank spam or ground and pound? I personally love the idea of "ground and pound" but most likely because rhinos, predators, ect. cost so much real money to buy, I've only borrowed.


I have only used the bottom list once, basically I'm asking if running a list with only three rhinos is viable? I think it's a sound strategy and I have all the models needed for the second list already.
Please give me your honest opinion, in this new 40k age should I be fielding more than 3 rhino's in a match?

My thought process is "What does CSM have that others don't". Well MCs for one and then summoned lesser daemons troops, infiltrating power armor, Oblits. Just my personal favorites though. I don't field my oblits much, but a friend gave me two.

Yes I know that I play mostly without power weapons/power fists. If you really think I should change that, just let me know and still let me know some CSM strategies. I'm used to seeing Blood Angels / Space Wolves / IG tank spam and CSM just cant do that. So I thought the Chosen were an amazing counter to that kind of stuff.

Any comments welcome, I own 1500pts of painted models (second list above) and obliterators, some havoks, and I have terminators but not painted or put together. Random other things too, only three rhinos though, no other tanks besides them.


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Anything?

Hey, I'm starting a CSM army, it's my first 40k army.

I have some odd bits and such if you are interested in a trade. I need feet and maybe some meltas. If you have anything, I'd like to trade, please PM me.

At Dr. What: Sorry man, if you didn't notice I'm using all my Melta's and I'm out of CSM pieces, I used up all my extras just making the chosen squads (I used bits from possessed CSM to finish them up) They look brutal and half-mutated now.

Anyone with some information on my two different lists? Or comments / strategies for me?

Koski wrote:CORE:
x2 DP, wings

Lash and MoT, yes?

Koski wrote:x10 CSM, x2 flm, IoCG, Rhino
x10 CSM, x2 melta, IoCG, Rhino
x8 Zerks, Champ+PW, Meltabombs, Icon, Rhino, 243

Looks good so far.

Koski wrote:LIST ONE

x2 Preds / SS heavy bolter 200
x1 Vindicator w/ /Demonic Possession 145
x16 Summoned Lesser Daemons (two squads) 208

Again, looks good.

Koski wrote:LIST TWO

ABOVE CORE UNITS +
x8 Chosen, x3 Meltaguns, Icon
x8 Chosen, x3 Meltaguns, Icon :368
x16 Summoned Lesser Daemons (two squads)

Continues to look good.

Koski wrote: Tank spam or ground and pound? I personally love the idea of "ground and pound" but most likely because rhinos, predators, ect. cost so much real money to buy, I've only borrowed.

Unfortunately, it's a mobile, Mech game. Footslogger armies in this rule set get stomped ... unless you're a Pally army.

Koski wrote:I have only used the bottom list once, basically I'm asking if running a list with only three rhinos is viable?

I only own 3 rhinos. And I do okay.

Koski wrote:I don't field my oblits much, but a friend gave me two.

I made my oblits with AoBR converted termies. Use Green stuff to stick on more gun bits, paint as stretched pink flesh and you're good.

Koski wrote:I thought the Chosen were an amazing counter to that kind of stuff.

Chosen are just fine for the OutFlanking or Infiltrating fun with meltas.

Koski wrote: obliterators, some havoks, and I have terminators but not painted or put together.

Skip the termies, or if you use 'em, proxy as Oblits. But for now, using 3 tanks as your Heavy Support is a good idea. Having 9 oblits would be better, but until you have 'em, the Preds and Vin will be good.

Well, I don't actually own any tanks besides Rhinos. If your favoring the Obliterator approach I already have two and can make some more pretty easily with green stuff like you said.

x2 preds/ss HB +
x1 Vindicator +Deamonic Possession =345 points

x5 Oblits=375 points

Do you recommend I re-evaluate my point expenditure on heavy support? I know x9 Oblits would rule, but I'm just not comfortable fielding 675 points in HVY, I can get x3 LRs for cheaper than that.

If only fielding 3 Rhinos, can I swamp them with chosen infiltrate melta goodness? I'm really into the idea of Summoned Lesser Daemons but if anyone can give me strategic information on them I'd really appreciate it. I'm at a loss of whether or not to field x8 or x8(x2). I really want at least one squad to give it the try.

I am open to the idea of buying the three tanks (preds and vindi) if the general consensus is that the preds+vindi combo is better than the 16 Chosen w/ 6 meltaguns. I'm questioning whether or not the Chosen need the IoCG too, maybe give them a single PW or PF instead of the icon.


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I could go with

ABOVE CORE LIST +
x8 Summoned Lesser Daemons
x2 Oblits
x2 Oblits
x2 Oblits

23 points left over....I really enjoy the look of the two oblits I have and I wouldn't mind painting more, they're way way easier to paint than 75 points of something else heh.
x6 Oblits would be a very money effecient way to filling up 450 points. With green stuff + bits + terminators I can probably make them all fairly cheap.


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Anyone to vote whether they like the first or second list more? I guess it's a Machine friendly rulebook setting for 40k, but If there's any availability to not use as many machines and still be all-comers competitive, please share.

Koski wrote:Do you recommend I re-evaluate my point expenditure on heavy support? I know x9 Oblits would rule, but I'm just not comfortable fielding 675 points in HVY, I can get x3 LRs for cheaper than that.

I run 8 of them (the last Oblit model still needs converting and I'm neck deep in player DE right now) at 1850 to 2k, so at your 1500 ... eehh, maybe 4 to 6 of 'em.

As far as 3 LRs vs 9 Oblits?
1. Oblits, being infantry can usually get a cover save vs. AP2. LRs, Cover Saves? Hah!
2. 3 LRs - 6 LasCans, TL vs. 9 LCs. Twin-Linked brings this nearly even.
3. Oblits can't die to one lucky Lance or other anti-T shot. Enemies need to ID all three oblits, or deal out 6 wounds.
4. Varied weapons fire favors oblits over LRs.
5. LRs transport Khorne or Termie death. Oblits take their damn time with Slow and Purposeful.


Overall, it's Oblits by more than a nose.

Koski wrote: I'm at a loss of whether or not to field x8 or x8(x2). I really want at least one squad to give it the try.

The bigger the better. Field 'em in crews of 14 or more. Anything smaller is too easy to shoot up. Strategy wise, they can really stretch out to secure two or even three objectives.

Koski wrote:
ABOVE CORE LIST +
x8 Summoned Lesser Daemons
x2 Oblits
x2 Oblits
x2 Oblits

23 points left over....I really enjoy the look of the two oblits I have and I wouldn't mind painting more, they're way way easier to paint than 75 points of something else heh.
x6 Oblits would be a very money effecient way to filling up 450 points. With green stuff + bits + terminators I can probably make them all fairly cheap.

I'm cheap. A real skin-flint. So I whole heartedly recommend this.

Cool! I may or may not attempt to do something like that then. Maybe only x5 oblits total (depending on how many come in the box or how I convert 3 terminators) We'll see though, I can always add more Lesser Daemons like you said the bigger the better.

Thank you for your comments.

About the core:
Throw either a Mark of Tzeentch or a Mark of Nurgle or a Mark of Slaanesh with Lash of Submission on the Daemon Princes. I would reccomend the MoS+Fzorgle; the ability to move enemy units around is stupid good.

I'd swap the Flamers for more Meltaguns if possible. Khorne Berzerkers and even basic Chaos Space Marines can eat most flamer-bait, especially with Lash to position the enemy. I'm a big fan of Fist Champs in CSM squads. They help protect the squad from Dreads and th like and give it a bit more oomph against other MEQ's. Given that a lot of other Space Marine armies don't run fists, it can really expedite a combat.

If you're going to run preds, you need to run Autocannons with Lascannon sponsons. Chaos needs to milk all the ranged anti-tank fire from HS as possible. The Vindicator is solid choice; can knock out enemy AFV's in a pinch, and Lash with a Demolisher Cannon scares the bejeezus out of anything.

I'd reccomend against the SLD's. If you're primarily going against Space Wolves and Blood Angels, they can't really do much to help in Close Combat and eat up a lot of points. At 1500, you need to maximize the bang for your buck, and I just don't think the SLD's are worth it. Your Chosen squads are a bit wonky. They're armed with Melta, but they lack a transport to get close. They're too small to act as a serious CC threat, but too big to be a throw-away unit. With chosen, you generally want to stick them a five-man unit in a Rhino with five special weapons. Generally either three Meltaguns and two Flamers. I like to run five Plasma Guns, but I only bring that unit out for 1750 plus point games.

You haven't really looked at Havocs yet, but they provide more ranged anti-tank fire for a cheaper cost than any other unit in the CSM codex. For 155 points you get five Havocs armed with your choice of four Missile Launchers or Autocannons. If you really want to run the SLD's, you can throw an IoCG on the Havocs and let them summon in objective holders or emergency CC support.

You make very valid points. For the price SLD are almost the same as regular CSM.

If the 155 points is available my favorite loadout for HQ is DP+MoS+LoS+wings

I just don't feel like Havoks compare well to other armies equivalent.

I'd rather run one or even two vindicators instead of predators if the only useful pred is SS lascannons. But if Oblits are more effective than vindicators then I'd rather that. Lash + plasma cannons = sounds nice.

If I end up taking the Chosen off, or skimping them down I would definately put a PF or PW on the CSM. I personally like the PW's but only because they don't attack last hah. It's my goal to field at least 3 PW/PF stuff.

Would you think Vindicators need extra armor or demonic possession to be a viable choice?

Koski wrote: You make very valid points. For the price SLD are almost the same as regular CSM.

Well, SLD don't have bolters, grenades, meltaguns, or fists. They can't take a rhino, don't have an armor save, and are reliant on both reserve rolls and icon placement. Note that the CSM FAQ requires the Icon be on the table and outside a transport.

Koski wrote: If the 155 points is available my favorite loadout for HQ is DP+MoS+LoS+wings

Generally, there's little in the codex that's more valuable than the extra twenty-five points to boost a DP up to a Fzorgle Prince.

Koski wrote: I just don't feel like Havoks compare well to other armies equivalent.

While they are worse than Long Fangs, they're still the cheapest way for us to spam weapons. No point throwing them out just due to envy. Unfortunately, we're currently suffering just like the generic SM in that a new codex does what we do for cheaper (SM with codex BA, us with codex SW, DA with anything in power armor).

Koski wrote: I'd rather run one or even two vindicators instead of predators if the only useful pred is SS lascannons. But if Oblits are more effective than vindicators then I'd rather that. Lash + plasma cannons = sounds nice.

Preds are better ranged anti-transport support; a necessary ingredient in the soufflé of Chaos. Oblits are different than Vindicators. Oblits provide more anti-transport fire, but they don't provide a S10 AP2 large blast. Don't underestimate the Demolisher's ability to ID nobs or paladins. I wouldn't take just Vindicators, but I usually bring one along.

Koski wrote: If I end up taking the Chosen off, or skimping them down I would definately put a PF or PW on the CSM. I personally like the PW's but only because they don't attack last hah. It's my goal to field at least 3 PW/PF stuff.

Well, the fist kills more than the sword (at least against anything that matters) and adds versatility to the CSM squad. Not much will be able to get to the fist before it swings, and most of what can won't be that worried about one or two PW wounds anyways. Hidden PF's also threaten SC's. I wouldn't put the PF/PW on the Chosen in any case.

Koski wrote: Would you think Vindicators need extra armor or demonic possession to be a viable choice?

If I was going to take one, I'd take the possession everytime. That said, I don't think it's necessary. I usually screen my Vindicator with Rhino to prevent it from getting Weapon Destroyed anyways, so I tend to run without the DP.

CSM has some of the best troops choices in the game. Spending less than half of your points on troops makes me sad.

More importantly, there are still several gaps in your list that just your CSM and some berzerkers can't handle. You've got your anti-horde down, but not much else. Of your three options so far, the obliterator one is the best, just because it covers the most number of these problems, while the worst one is the vehicular option, as it's not adding much that the troops aren't already bringing.

If you're going to keep it mech, that means your squads are small enough that you should be able to afford a 4th squad of something in a rhino. 2x squads of CSM with meltaguns and 2x squads of berzerkers in rhinos is a good place to start. Once there, you can decide if you want more long-range support options like oblits and havocs or close-range support options like plasma chosen or termicide or something.

Thank you again for helpful hints. I did not know about the ICONs outside tanks.

All in all, I don't believe I want to hold anything in reserves anymore. Obliterators are best just fielded correct? Not deep strike?

I'm enjoying the number crunching lately,
I will be back to re-post a slightly tweaked list with my sprinkles moved around.

On the Havoks, I really love the look of Autocannons because it's hilarious seeing them fielded by regular Marines. Are they the anti-transport answer I'm looking for?

And on that note, I've seen my brothers long fangs missile launcher squads do well over they're points worth of damage.

MLs or Autocannons on havoks if I ever wanted to take them?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, I like this list a lot since I essentially own all of it.

ABOVE CORE UNITS (tweaked)
CORE:
x2 DP, wings LoS 310
x10 CSM, x2 melta, IoCG, champ+pf, Rhino 255
x10 CSM, x2 melta, IoCG, champ+pw, Rhino 245
x8 Zerks, Champ+PF, Rhino 243
TOTAL: 1053

+

x1 Vindicator + Daemonic Possession 145
x5 Havoks, x4 Autocannons 155
x2 Obliterators 150

I think this total out to roughly 1500 total. It looks pretty shaweet to me? Is it enough on troops though? I'm really digging this list, so please guys, rip it apart if it's bad or has many weakness's?

Whether or not to deep strike the Obliterators will depend on the terrain and the opponent. Sometimes you'll want to deep strike them to slam somebody with the TL'ed Flamers or Meltaguns. A lot of the time, you'll want them walkin' around in cover taking shots with Lascannons and Multi-Meltas.

Autocannons do better against AV10 and 11. Missiles do better against AV12+. Missiles obviously do better against MEQ's and a lot of MC's.

RustyKnight wrote:Whether or not to deep strike the Obliterators will depend on the terrain and the opponent. Sometimes you'll want to deep strike them to slam somebody with the TL'ed Flamers or Meltaguns. A lot of the time, you'll want them walkin' around in cover taking shots with Lascannons and Multi-Meltas.

Rusty is right. *Most* of the time, deploy on the table as Oblits have the range to hurt on Turn 1.

One time I'd wished I'd Deep Struck them was on a Capture&Control mission, Spearhead vs Necrons. I lost my rhinos fast and was never able to get anything close to contesting the enemy objective. The Oblits were the only ones that coulda done it. Otherwise the game was largely me on the defensive.

Tie game.

So all day I've been thinking on the vindi, havoks, oblits trio.

For 1500pts it's pretty cool to fill out my hvy support, I'm very much debating whether or not to take the vindicator, I can see where it would help draw fire away from the rhinos, but as you said with the LR to oblits comparison, the vindi can easily be one shot weapon destroyed/demolished out of the game.

If I was going to use Chosen Space Marines what is the best loadout? I would like to use x2 squads but I don't know how it's going to work.

I often think about x2 Dreadnaughts as well hahaha, but raging missile launchers for 100points aren't my thing. But fielding x2 dreads, with a vindi and Lash princes would be sweet.

Priority list (Give me your opinion of what's most important to least important on this list) I already have it setup with my personal choices.

1. Fielding 40+ MEQ bodies.
2. Make sure I bring x3 squads of hvy
3. Add another troop squad for objectives
4. Bring x3 PFs in rhinos

I know like it seems the answer to my thing here is Havoks, but I'm still not sold on them.... If I really need some MLs I would like to try the tactical approach instead (CSM groups with ML, MG).

You're not going to be able to fill out your HS and include elites choices and still have enough points for troops, at least, not below 2,000 points.

If you want chosen, take 3 squads in rhinos to join the rhino rush. If you want long range support, take two squads of 2 obliterators and a squad of ML havocs. As each of these options costs you roughly 500 points, though, you're going to have to choose one or the other, or not have enough redundancy to be effective in either.

Thanks Ailaros.

A big question with Chosen, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it seems to me that WITHOUT a tank they infiltrate 12''-24'' from the enemy anywhere I want. (depending on LoS as well). That's basically meltagun range... So only take Chosen with transports to outflank? I don't like the randomness of outflanking, but ehh


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Also, I'm not expecting to take x3 hvy and still elites. I'm just not sure whether to take A LOT of hvy, or just take a bare minimum of x2 oblits, x2 oblits. Or even a single squad of x3 Oblits for my hvy choice..

I know the entire list would have to be tailored around only taking x3 Oblits and no other HVY support...But could that be done?


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I'm very used to my DPs being tank hunters more than support units. Considering they have nothing else to shoot, the LoS will be considerably useful though, but not my main use out of them....Is this the wrong strategy with these guys?

Koski wrote:
A big question with Chosen, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it seems to me that WITHOUT a tank they infiltrate 12''-24'' from the enemy anywhere I want. (depending on LoS as well). That's basically meltagun range... So only take Chosen with transports to outflank? I don't like the randomness of outflanking, but ehh

Well, outiside for having LoS blocking terrain near the enemy, your meltas would require the other guy to drive near them for the Chosen to shoot. Rhinos can just drive at the other guy. Rhino also give you the option to drive across the table, outflank, or infiltrate and let the Rhino be a mobile wall. Infiltrate can be useful if the enemy has a really juicy target on the side of the board, but I usually just drive across the table.

Koski wrote:
Also, I'm not expecting to take x3 hvy and still elites. I'm just not sure whether to take A LOT of hvy, or just take a bare minimum of x2 oblits, x2 oblits. Or even a single squad of x3 Oblits for my hvy choice..

I know the entire list would have to be tailored around only taking x3 Oblits and no other HVY support...But could that be done?

The reason Heavy Support is usually max'ed in CSM lists is becuase it's our only viable choice for long ranged anti-transport fire. You have to ask yourself if your list needs more ranged anti-transport power or more meltaguns. Generally, the lascannons and missile launchers are needed more than some spare meltaguns (not that you can have too much melta). Of course, Obliterators have meltaguns too. I would reccomend taking at least 2x2 oblits. If you go that route, you could always use Havocs armed with meltaguns to save some points.

Koski wrote:
I'm very used to my DPs being tank hunters more than support units. Considering they have nothing else to shoot, the LoS will be considerably useful though, but not my main use out of them....Is this the wrong strategy with these guys?

Daemon Princes are fragile. If you run them right into the enemies army and take out a single Chimera, you'll prolly lose the Daemon Prince. With Fzorgle, you want to be a bit more conservative. Your Daemon Prince can handle MSU infantry (outside GK) on his own, but you have to consider whether Lashing people up is more valuable. Ultimately, what to do with your Daemon Prince will vary based on terrain and opponent. I myself tend to run the Daemon Prince very carefully, using him to set up charges and mess with the enemies position while hiding behind terrain to avoid getting shot down.