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Hey Dakka,

I'm hoping to get some insight into what people think is better - a Predator with two side sponson lascannons and the TL lascannon on top or a vindicator?

I'm thinking of sticking 2 into a 2K Deathwing list and, putting the points costs aside for a minute, I'm swaying more towards the predators because the extra range is great and there's no scatter. The armour values are the same and since they are both AP2, it's not like the armour pen values are very different. And with multiple shots to the vindicators 1, the predator is a better bet for punching through AV11 anyway I think, despite the -1 strength value from the Vindicator to the pred. There's obviously a big difference in points but that doesn't really bother me - I'd just drop one of my landspeeders then I can fit in the 2 preds. Let me know what you think!

Las/Las Pred = Anti tank
Vindicator = Anti infantry

They fit different rolls. Yes they both have the same AP but the way they go about it is very different. It depends on what you need for your army and what armies you expect to go against. I understand that one can fill in for the other but I am being very specific here for the sake of the argument.

Personally I prefer Preds over Vindi's any day. I can't even consider how many games I've played where my vindi missed every shot by scattering. I would only take them vs hoards where I know my scatter may hit something. They are a high risk high reward tank for me. When they hit man do they hit hard. But more often than not they are scattering. Plus with on one shot I don't much care for them. With the preds I can pop tanks and thin out elite units, MC or even troops if there is nothing to shoot. 2 las guns and an autocannon for 120 pts. Vindicator 1 shot mind you it is a great shot...but it's short ranged and usually only can last so long once you get that close and it costs the same (pretty much).

Preds sit back and fire from a distance.

I think it depends on your army selection also. Vindicators are pressing forward for the assault, so synergize more with an assault army.

Predators need to sit still or lose most of their fire power, so work better in a long range fire base/defensive army.

If your army is full of assault squads go with the vindicator. If your army is full of long range static firepower then the predator.

They have different roles really. Obviously the preds for anti tank and vindis for anti infantry. In my DW lists I go with the vinids because with the TH/SS termies, CMLs in every squad and MM/CML speeders that I run I tend to have enough anti tank so the vinids provide a anti infantry role and huge target that the enemy has to kill asap or they get hurt bad.

Thanks for the replies. It really seems like they're both valid options. I do like the idea of the vindicator but it's just that 24" range that puts me off, plus it's possible you'd have to forgo a round or two of shooting just to position it correctly whereas the 48" of the lascannons mean you get to shoot from turn 1 most likely. I also like the idea of being able to have the preds hang back whilst my termies advance.

Kevlar wrote:I think it depends on your army selection also. Vindicators are pressing forward for the assault, so synergize more with an assault army.

Predators need to sit still or lose most of their fire power, so work better in a long range fire base/defensive army.

If your army is full of assault squads go with the vindicator. If your army is full of long range static firepower then the predator.

I dont agree here, if you have your own troops up in the enemys face with assault units you dont want to risk hitting your own guys with a bad dice roll from the Vindi, though sometimes it might be worth the risk. Say you tie up a unit of paladins with some assault unit then open fire with the vindis and pray to the dice god. Other than that I'd say the Vindi is a better choice because it will kill pretty much anything if you get a bullseye, and the pure terror you can put into your enemy just by bringing Vindis could force him to change his gameplan.

I think one factor that should be considered is what your opponent will see:


Predator- most people will consider this to be a dedicated anti-tank mobile gun battery.

Vindicator- most people will see nohting but a large blast Str 10 template that must die right goddamn now, and will make this thing priority number one.


Keep this in mind, as Vindicators tend to not live very long unless you have more than one. However, they will give your opponent something to shoot at that isn't your softer units.

It was pretty good, but Vindicator vs. Predator II: this time it's personal! was an obvious cash-grab flick.

Wait....

azazel the cat wrote:I think one factor that should be considered is what your opponent will see:


Predator- most people will consider this to be a dedicated anti-tank mobile gun battery.

Vindicator- most people will see nohting but a large blast Str 10 template that must die right goddamn now, and will make this thing priority number one.


Keep this in mind, as Vindicators tend to not live very long unless you have more than one. However, they will give your opponent something to shoot at that isn't your softer units.

This. If I have Leman Russes galore, I will ignore predators because they'll struggle to penetrate AV 14. If I have mechspam, I'll ignore them because it can't reliably kill enough for it to be as worrying as the enemy's assault troops.
If I see a Vindacator I see something that can squish any tank and wipe out an entire squad in one shot. Expect a lot of manticores.

If your opponent is a GK, especially the Draigowing type, go vindicator and make him cry.

Vindicators. Although Baal preds are equally as fun to use...

Depends on the army/list. Predators are good at sitting back in pinging shooting and maybe moving around a bit for better angles. Vindicators are better for aggressive armies trying to get stuck into the enemy. Vindicators work best in pairs though, preds can be fielded in singles or multiples and are much more flexible.

Vindicators are best run in 3s, at which point they go from good to stupidly awsome.

Predator with autocannon turret and heavy bolter sponsons is what? 85 points? that's some cheap anti-heavy-infantry-slash-transport fire, and adds to mech saturation. Vindicator is 115, and as has been mentioned before, a S10 AP2 large blast is fraking TERRIFYING, so it's usually shot off the board pretty quick: ANY damage table result renders it useless, with the possible exception of immobilized, which renders you ridiculous easy to avoid nonetheless.
if your vehicle fears glancing hits, which aren't hard to inflict even on av 13, and easier to put on av 11(which a decent opponent will be able to get at), you're doing something wrong...
If you're bringing a vindicator, bring 2 or three, but I'd still say predators are the better choice for most armies.

2 vindis does screw up a lot of armies, though. put one in each corner and watch your opponent make every decision in fear of them. intentionally deploying outside of their LOS, dedicating WAY too much of their firepower to remove them, etc. The fear of a S10 AP2 large blast does far more than the actual blast ever can. Take what you will from it.

Personally I usullay field both in my 2k "DW" list, 1 ACLC Pred and 2 Vindicators. While DW lists have tons of MLs lascannons are quite rare. While a DW list can survive without lascannons the str 10 pie plates can be real gamechangers vs things like Nobz, Paladins ect. as well as good vs hordes. So for that reason I prefer the Vidicator if I had to pick in a DW list.

However, if we are playing with FW non super heavies then Im fielding 3 vindicators since I get to bring 3 cheap as chips mortis dreads

SnaleKing wrote: The fear of a S10 AP2 large blast does far more than the actual blast overall. Take what you will from it.

edited!
The few times my opponents have shaken the fear, the vindicators have given them good reason to fear them shortly afterwards. Toting around a cannon that everything is scared of is helps create the fear (well, everything except for say an MC...)

It's not really accurate to say they have the same armor, because of how the short range of the vindicator gun plays out on the tabletop.

Predators can sit in the corners with their AR13 facing toward the enemy and plink away all day. A vindicator has to get close, which allows enfilading shots into its thin side armor.

The combination of short range and crappy side armor means Vindicators usually die after 0-1 shots.

Grey Templar wrote:Vindicators are best run in 3s, at which point they go from good to stupidly awsome.

I would love to try an army with 3 vindicators side by side, with land raiders full of berzerkers to either flank, all demonically possessed, and a lash prince behind each land raider! I think I have some purchases to make!

Flavius Infernus wrote:It's not really accurate to say they have the same armor, because of how the short range of the vindicator gun plays out on the tabletop.

Predators can sit in the corners with their AR13 facing toward the enemy and plink away all day. A vindicator has to get close, which allows enfilading shots into its thin side armor.

The combination of short range and crappy side armor means Vindicators usually die after 0-1 shots.

While this is all true I find that a screening rhino helps. In order to get to the Vindcator they will then have to go trough a AV 11 Rhino with a smoke/cover save first. Unless they want to target an AV 13 vehicle with a +3 cover save instead...

Vindicators also suffer badly from the dreaded weapon destroyed result

I tend to run my Blood Angels in 2 configurations depending on what I'm fighting.

We are heavy Tyranid and Ork in my area. So I tend to take 3 vindicators which does the job nicely.

Against shooty Orks and IG Mech I tend to take 1 vindicator and 2 AC/Las predators. It's worked well for me thus far.

A Predator or three isn't a game changer, it's just more of the same: high strength, low-volume fire that marines are already putting out in droves with lots of melta. It's not safe to ignore, but it's not always the biggest threat.

A Vindi is a game changer. It'll kill anything on the board easily, and is one of the few things out there that will wipe a Multi-wound death star off the table in one shot. The opponent will have to deal with the Vindicators or consign himself to some serious damage. Vindis dying early on is testament to how scary they are. *Something* is going to die those first turns, that's why you have the rest of your army.

I think this thread has persuaded me that taking a couple of vindicators is probably better than a couple of predators....

ColdSadHungry wrote:I think this thread has persuaded me that taking a couple of vindicators is probably better than a couple of predators....

In that case it has failed. Vindicators, simply put, aren't an all-comers choice except in very special cases. As Flavius Infernus quite rightly pointed out, their weak side armor greatly impairs their ability to resist enemy fire, especially after moving into midfield, which is generally necessary for them to engage the enemy effectively. Vindicators are further extremely vulnerable to Weapon Destroyed results, whereas Predators with sponsons can weather these results with comparatively little harm. These weaknesses, simply put, jeopardizes the Vindicator's status as an all-comers unit.

While Vindicators do have the advantage of drawing the enemy's focus and their fire, it doesn't take much fire to stop a Vindicator or at least negate it for a turn, allowing the enemy to shift their fire onto other targets. Until the Vindicator gets some sort of performance increase-- a side armor buff would be nice-- it's safe to say that they will remain a highly situational unit.

Fetterkey wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:I think this thread has persuaded me that taking a couple of vindicators is probably better than a couple of predators....

In that case it has failed. Vindicators, simply put, aren't an all-comers choice except in very special cases. As Flavius Infernus quite rightly pointed out, their weak side armor greatly impairs their ability to resist enemy fire, especially after moving into midfield, which is generally necessary for them to engage the enemy effectively. Vindicators are further extremely vulnerable to Weapon Destroyed results, whereas Predators with sponsons can weather these results with comparatively little harm. These weaknesses, simply put, jeopardizes the Vindicator's status as an all-comers unit.

While Vindicators do have the advantage of drawing the enemy's focus and their fire, it doesn't take much fire to stop a Vindicator or at least negate it for a turn, allowing the enemy to shift their fire onto other targets. Until the Vindicator gets some sort of performance increase-- a side armor buff would be nice-- it's safe to say that they will remain a highly situational unit.

I'm thinking about them for my Deathwing force though. I'm not thinking about them for any other army and from what I've read here, I think that the vindicators just edge it.

What do you want your Heavy Support to do?

ColdSadHungry wrote:I'm thinking about them for my Deathwing force though. I'm not thinking about them for any other army and from what I've read here, I think that the vindicators just edge it.

In Deathwing, your best choices are (obviously) terminators in Troops. In FA, you have Ravenwing bikes, which can be solid melta/multi-melta support, and bring teleport homers to the table. They are great anti-tank and decent anti-transport, but are expensive. You also have Land Speeders, with Typhoons you get good long-range anti-transport and anti-horde. The 24" guns are less spectacular, IMO. Land Speeders are fragile, so it's best to keep them far away.

Like I said before, Vindicators are an anvil that your Terminators can press into. A unit of Grey Hunters in a Rhino will charge straight for an AC/Las Predator. It might blow up their ride, but odds are good that they will kill the tank in response, and will only lose 1 or maybe 2 guys if they have to spend a turn getting in range. If they drive towards an active Vindi, odds are good (or at least even) that they will get wiped out to the man. Nobody wants to get into CC with Assault Terminators, so they get pushed between two bad options. If they focus fire on the Vindicator, they leave the Deathwing Terminators to close ranks (or Deathwing Assault in) and slaughter. If they focus fire on the Terminators, they get pie-plated.

Emperor awfulness wrote:

Like I said before, Vindicators are an anvil that your Terminators can press into. A unit of Grey Hunters in a Rhino will charge straight for an AC/Las Predator. It might blow up their ride, but odds are good that they will kill the tank in response, and will only lose 1 or maybe 2 guys if they have to spend a turn getting in range. If they drive towards an active Vindi, odds are good (or at least even) that they will get wiped out to the man.

Why would space wolves rush a vindicator? I would think that space wolves would just wait for the vindicator to move up (which it has to to get in range) and then nail it in the side armor with long fang missles. Or shoot it in the front armor going for the glancing weapon destroyed or immobilized results, which will both disable a vindi. The missles aren't very good against terminators anyway, so might as well shoot them at the vindi.

For the price of a Vindicator, which needs at least two rounds until it can shoot ( always assuming that it wasn't stunned/ imobilised/ destroyed/ or suffers from a weapon destroyed result ) you can buy a Predator which starts poping your opponents transport from turn one. Seriously, Vindicators look scarry but they aren't.
After at the very least one or two rounds of doing nothing you can finaly shoot.

Well, a str10 blast is nice, until it scatters and fails to scratch even the paint of your opponent's transports ( oh look, a str5 hit...). Since most people have meched up by now even a direct hit won't be that scary ( a bit less than a 1/3 chance to actualy destroy/ wreck a transport, depending on the armourvalue ).