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I have made the imperial guard codex as it should have been (in my eyes) now we let the judges decide

The orginal:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lzFiJ_S3EJB_ia3WgDUoZdlSeO6zktvkBh-Pmocj73k/edit
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87548122/Imperial-Guard-Codex-Original

Patch 1.1 (record deleted)

Patch 1.2
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sgFNsfWSLldQOhJsx6GbMtqN2xb8fYfwCwes6VNS3ms/edit
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87548541/Imperial-Guard-Codex-patch-1-2

- additional bonuses on the existing specialization
- added 2 new specialization
- added 2 new leman russ tanks
- changed storm troopers to represent their fluff (now they trully is the best the imperial guard have to offer)
- otherwise massive changes to storm troopers
- Removed constrips and guardsmen from company command squad
- removed autogun
- removed the "portable" chem cannon
- removed chem cannons from alot of vehicles
- removed max limit on lord commisars
- removed storm las
- Constrips cost redused to 3 pts pr model from 4 pts pr model
- added hellblade
- added terragun (only available to storm troopers)
- added terrapistol (only available to storm troopers)
- added terraplating (only available to storm troopers)
- added additional cost on leman russ tanks
- added punisher gatling cannon side sponsors
- otherwise cleaning of removed equipment and weapons

Put it up on scribd.com. I really am to lazy to make a google account...

Fixed

Okay, I just skimmed through it but a lot of things just seemed weird. Like all you did (for the most part) was make everything less expensive. 115 point Leman Russes? 60 point Hydas?

For the most part, all I'm seeing is that the most effective units got more effective, while the current units that suck in the current Guard codex (like Stormtroopers) got even worse, if that was even possible. The only exception is the Lord Commissar who is now 50 points which is cool.

The Ministorum priest still is way overpriced. You also copy-pasted his options into the Primaris Psyker section so you will want to fix that.

A T3 4+ save model is not worth 20 points, even if it's BS5 and has a Str5 Ap3 gun.

That being said, I did appreciate there being a Commissar tank because I have one of the Forgeworld Commissar tank commanders haha

Overall, my impressions of this codex is that you didn't really improve a lot of the units that suck hard like Ogryns and Stormtroopers in the current guard codex and instead focused on cutting costs for already popular units. That's just me though.

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

I'm in a bit of a agreement with Vlad. A lot of this has scratching my head (storm troopers are even more expensive than space marines?)

I mean it seems that you looked at the popular bread n butter lists and buffed them for no reason. For Example 5 Meltagun Vet squads. Wow like I didnt already have a reason to take them. Guess I'll back them up with 145pt Manticores

Okay, I just skimmed through it but a lot of things just seemed weird. Like all you did (for the most part) was make everything less expensive. 115 point Leman Russes? 60 point Hydas?

If you look closely they have lost certain stuff like armour points and hull mounted weapon and their smoke launcher (they do still have the options though)

The Ministorum priest still is way overpriced. You also copy-pasted his options into the Primaris Psyker section so you will want to fix that.

He still cost the same as he does in the current codex so how is he overpriced? the fact that he now have more options than he did does not make him over priced o.O (will fix the copy paste )

A T3 4+ save model is not worth 20 points, even if it's BS5 and has a Str5 Ap3 gun.

I do disagree, in the current codex the storm trooper are at 16 points and s*** balls (as the veterans bypass them by far). In the current codex the storm trooper is just used as "suicide" unit who deepstrike behind tank or fortification to destroy the enemy. but they only have 1 chance (and with their BS 4 18" hot-shot lasgun they are lucky if they survive to your next round).
I would happelly pay 20 points pr for a BS 5 T3 model (as almost all models in the IG are T3) who can survive longer after they have deep striked. This may be only me but still. Also as the storm trooper have "operations" special rule they can choose to re-roll the scatter dice or have move through cover + scout or have pinning when they fire for the first time. at 20 points this would be cheap in my eyes

That being said, I did appreciate there being a Commissar tank because I have one of the Forgeworld Commissar tank commanders haha

"drive me closer i wanna hit them with my sword"

Overall, my impressions of this codex is that you didn't really improve a lot of the units that suck hard like Ogryns and Stormtroopers in the current guard codex and instead focused on cutting costs for already popular units. That's just me though.

i must admit that im not like other IG players who spams tanks like hell (5th edition in a nut-shell) i like using infantry like guardsman, veterans, ogryns and my favorit storm troopers so i do not see things that you may see in this codex

Still appreciate your comments

Dark wolf44 wrote:

i must admit that im not like other IG players who spams tanks like hell (5th edition in a nut-shell) i like using infantry like guardsman, veterans, ogryns and my favorit storm troopers so i do not see things that you may see in this codex

Funny thing is people dont spam tanks, or at least competitively. Tank spamming is actually a liability with the squad rules

What people do is Mechanized Spam. This fandex seems to love this.

And the other popular IG build, powerblobs, now has access to even more special weapons, medipacks, and powerfists out the wazoo.

kenshin620 wrote:

Dark wolf44 wrote:

i must admit that im not like other IG players who spams tanks like hell (5th edition in a nut-shell) i like using infantry like guardsman, veterans, ogryns and my favorit storm troopers so i do not see things that you may see in this codex

Funny thing is people dont spam tanks, or at least competitively. Tank spamming is actually a liability with the squad rules

What people do is Mechanized Spam. This fandex seems to love this.

And the other popular IG build, powerblobs, now has access to even more special weapons, medipacks, and powerfists out the wazoo.

This. Let's see here, using the normal Power blob. Except wait, there's more!

3x Infantry Squads-150 (250 in all)
1x Medic-20
1x Commissar-35
3x Powerfists for Sergeants-45

cool, now I have FNP for 30 guardsmen, and also I have 3 models with Powerfists. If I wanted to pay an additional 31 points, I could give them all Stealth with Camo-Cloaks. Do you realize how good this is? Power Blobs would become ridiculously powerful

Funny thing is people dont spam tanks, or at least competitively. Tank spamming is actually a liability with the squad rules
What people do is Mechanized Spam. This fandex seems to love this

.

the term mechanized are using alot of vehicles if im not very wrong. while its true it got boosted in this book they must sacrifice something. if you go infantry specialized you can't have alot of tanks (except dedicated transports) but you get alot of Special weapons and doctrines but if you go mechanized specialization you get alot of (cheaper but weaker) tanks and can't have as many special weapons as in Infantry specialization. (may be that im seeing this wrong)

And the other popular IG build, powerblobs, now has access to even more special weapons, medipacks, and powerfists out the wazoo.

idk what a powerblob is (sorry) but medic available to all units i do not see as a problem (i mean if the command squad has it why not veterans and storm troopers they are just as squissy)

and yeah you can have all this in ur units but its not FREE you use points on that. power fist 15 x 10 150p for a unit with W1 Sv5 and 1(or2) attacks who strikes last? if you want to spam this go ahead...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

This. Let's see here, using the normal Power blob. Except wait, there's more!

3x Infantry Squads-150 (250 in all)
1x Medic-20
1x Commissar-35
3x Powerfists for Sergeants-45

cool, now I have FNP for 30 guardsmen, and also I have 3 models with Powerfists. If I wanted to pay an additional 31 points, I could give them all Stealth with Camo-Cloaks. Do you realize how good this is? Power Blobs would become ridiculously powerful

ah gak... i forgot the Combine squad special rule..... i will have to remove that

Vladsimpaler wrote:

This. Let's see here, using the normal Power blob. Except wait, there's more!

3x Infantry Squads-150 (250 in all)
1x Medic-20
1x Commissar-35
3x Powerfists for Sergeants-45

cool, now I have FNP for 30 guardsmen, and also I have 3 models with Powerfists. If I wanted to pay an additional 31 points, I could give them all Stealth with Camo-Cloaks. Do you realize how good this is? Power Blobs would become ridiculously powerful

For an added bonus, give them 9 meltaguns or something

And of course for support some Vet Special Weapon Squads with Chimeras and 5 meltas. And hey why not toss in a 50 man conscript platoon also with a commissar and a medipack

I really want to use Alrahem now

Yeah yeah just make fun of the poor newbie

Dark wolf44 wrote:

A T3 4+ save model is not worth 20 points, even if it's BS5 and has a Str5 Ap3 gun.

I do disagree, in the current codex the storm trooper are at 16 points and s*** balls (as the veterans bypass them by far). In the current codex the storm trooper is just used as "suicide" unit who deepstrike behind tank or fortification to destroy the enemy. but they only have 1 chance (and with their BS 4 18" hot-shot lasgun they are lucky if they survive to your next round).
I would happelly pay 20 points pr for a BS 5 T3 model (as almost all models in the IG are T3) who can survive longer after they have deep striked. This may be only me but still. Also as the storm trooper have "operations" special rule they can choose to re-roll the scatter dice or have move through cover + scout or have pinning when they fire for the first time. at 20 points this would be cheap in my eyes

The thing is that Storm Troopers are not supposed to compete with Veterans. Veterans are versatile, Storm Troopers are specialists. You are supposed to drop Storm Troopers in with a specific goal and be able to succeed in that goal if it is reasonable, not use them as front line troops to defeat marines. Honestly, you seem to have turned Storm Troopers into beefed up Veteran Squads, they can now take heavy weapons, they can take a commissar, they can take 2 (4) (where does the four come from, do they need a specific doctrine or something?) special weapons and everyone can take a strength 6 AP 3 rapid fire weapon, which makes them far better than Sternguard for less points. Honestly I can see myself abandoning vets for Storm Troopers in most cases since they are more versatile and are overall probably the best infantry unit in the game under your rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dark wolf44 wrote:
idk what a powerblob is (sorry) but medic available to all units i do not see as a problem (i mean if the command squad has it why not veterans and storm troopers they are just as squissy)

and yeah you can have all this in ur units but its not FREE you use points on that. power fist 15 x 10 150p for a unit with W1 Sv5 and 1(or2) attacks who strikes last? if you want to spam this go ahead...

In universe, because medics are highly trained and are generally only deployed on the company level or higher in real militaries, although most soldiers have basic medical training. On the tabletop, because it would make guardsmen tougher than space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dark wolf44 wrote:Yeah yeah just make fun of the poor newbie

Were not making fun of you, just saying that your codex is really OP. Guard right now is really good and versatile, you take it to the next level making guard surpass everyone in every potential way, bigger guns than the Tau, better close combat than blood angels, better versatility than generic marines, better specialization than eldar, the only area that truly lose at is with speed to Dark Eldar, not that it would matter much because the IG can beat them up close or in a shooting game with ease.

The thing is that Storm Troopers are not supposed to compete with Veterans. Veterans are versatile, Storm Troopers are specialists. You are supposed to drop Storm Troopers in with a specific goal and be able to succeed in that goal if it is reasonable, not use them as front line troops to defeat marines. Honestly, you seem to have turned Storm Troopers into beefed up Veteran Squads, they can now take heavy weapons, they can take a commissar, they can take 2 (4) (where does the four come from, do they need a specific doctrine or something?) special weapons and everyone can take a strength 6 AP 3 rapid fire weapon, which makes them far better than Sternguard for less points. Honestly I can see myself abandoning vets for Storm Troopers in most cases since they are more versatile and are overall probably the best infantry unit in the game under your rules.

i do ask why should then not be allowed to take a heavy weapon team? and yeah the (4) is if the army chooses infantry specialisation (which gives 2 additional special weapon to an infantry squad) and the fact that the new army book writers in GW are high on their expencive finecast when they writes codexes are not my fault. i do say that sternguard should be BS5 WS5 and other stuff but don't drag dem in to this because a storm trooper is still easy killed as they only have a 4+ save with 1W at 20 points each, storm trooper does no have "you shall know no fear" they do not have combi weapons and they can't split up they do not have 3+ save and 1A base (where stern got 2) and storm trooper does not have special ammunitions. Sternguard also get special weapons & heavy weapons to sickly redused prices (5 points for multi melta) where my storm trooper still pays full price. storm trooper are supposed to be the best unit IG have to offer and some are even a part of the inquisition. all other race can have a buffed up HQ choice (space wolves wolf lord example) so the fact that IG have 1 unit that bypass space marines should be allowed.

PS: its S5 AP3 not S6 AP3

In universe, because medics are highly trained and are generally only deployed on the company level or higher in real militaries, although most soldiers have basic medical training. On the tabletop, because it would make guardsmen tougher than space marines.

while this is true i do say that the space marines should have apothecaries as independent model (like 0-3 apothecary for 1 elite slott maybe) but i do not make a Space marine codex i made an IG.

Still it will maybe be more balansed to give +5 feel no pain as not all medics are "highly trained"

Were not making fun of you, just saying that your codex is really OP. Guard right now is really good and versatile, you take it to the next level making guard surpass everyone in every potential way, bigger guns than the Tau, better close combat than blood angels, better versatility than generic marines, better specialization than eldar, the only area that truly lose at is with speed to Dark Eldar, not that it would matter much because the IG can beat them up close or in a shooting game with ease.

IG is good and versatile? well then i can't play (which i have been told alot of times -.-). i do not make the guard surpass anyone their stats are to same with most of the same weapons (i have added 2 infantry weapons and 1 tank cannon) The fact that i beat up blood angels in close combat is only because of the power weapon not the man holding it. i don't know ANYTING about eldar so can't argue there...


It may be that i have misunderstood the IG fluff but if i remeber correctly they are supposed to have a large range of weapons and vehicles.

Yeah, I'm going to also agree with the vast majority of what's been said already.

The Guard codex is already one of the strongest in the game, and provides a good number of different builds. There are some bad units and some obviously superior choices, but overall, its a very strong codex.

This fan dex takes all that and just makes it all better, without really improving the bad choices or adding any additional flavour I can't already get in the current dex.

As a foot guard player, this dex would allow me to build the ultimate power blob list. I would be unstoppable. We're talking an absurd number of stubborn, Ld9, FnP, power fist wielding sergeants/commissars, armed to the teeth with plasma/melta, guardsmen barreling down your throat. If you don't know what a power blob is, perhaps you don't have the experience to be building a fan dex.

If you don't know what a power blob is, perhaps you don't have the experience to be building a fan dex.

there is a differance between experiance and english build words...

but sure i won't give up

Time for a patch 1.3! xD

Dark wolf44 wrote:

If you don't know what a power blob is, perhaps you don't have the experience to be building a fan dex.

there is a differance between experiance and english build words...

but sure i won't give up

Time for a patch 1.3! xD

Ha, that's the spirit! I know I've made a lot of unintentionally broken stuff in my time too, you just get better as you practice.

I would recommend first posting a single unit and then seeing the response to that. Also, playing a lot of 40k with a lot of different armies will help you get a better feel for it. I know my first few codices weren't very balanced.

Ha, that's the spirit! I know I've made a lot of unintentionally broken stuff in my time too, you just get better as you practice.

You did? you still have them? can i see them?

I would recommend first posting a single unit and then seeing the response to that. Also, playing a lot of 40k with a lot of different armies will help you get a better feel for it. I know my first few codices weren't very balanced.

roger that.

but here there are relativly few players. We got 1 SM, 1 SW, 2 IG, 2 necrons and 1 orks

Here is a long threat about the complaints of IG players. I strongly recommend to go through this first. Gives a nice picture about what's wrong in the 'dex and some how-to-fix-it ideas.

Also, two things that especially irked me:
- Some names are rather silly sounding (Terragun? sounds like some earth-shooting weapon....) or simply out of context (the letter+number coded vehicles while every other vehicle have a real name....).
- The doctrine system is obsolate in the current era.

And the Priest in your codex is actually more expensive, because the current Priest has a Rosarius as a basic wargear. Just sayin' .

Dark wolf44 wrote:

Ha, that's the spirit! I know I've made a lot of unintentionally broken stuff in my time too, you just get better as you practice.

You did? you still have them? can i see them?

Haha yeah, sure
This was my first real project I embarked on, and I got hardcore negative feedback on the first page:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/234556.page

Also, for what it's worth, here was my thread on IG Stormtroopers I made back before 5th edition came out:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/224009.page


My "problem", if you could call it that, is a lot like yours in that I want lots of units to have lots of options. Of course, they can occasionally mean that it becomes too overpowered. I'll just link what I consider my "magnus opus" if you will.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/46640923/Codex-Hordes-of-Chaos

I would recommend first posting a single unit and then seeing the response to that. Also, playing a lot of 40k with a lot of different armies will help you get a better feel for it. I know my first few codices weren't very balanced.

roger that.

but here there are relativly few players. We got 1 SM, 1 SW, 2 IG, 2 necrons and 1 orks

Ah, that's actually not terrible. Weird that you have 2 Necron players though haha

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

Here is a long threat about the complaints of IG players. I strongly recommend to go through this first. Gives a nice picture about what's wrong in the 'dex and some how-to-fix-it ideas.

thanks i will go through this :-D

Also, two things that especially irked me:
- Some names are rather silly sounding (Terragun? sounds like some earth-shooting weapon....) or simply out of context (the letter+number coded vehicles while every other vehicle have a real name....).
- The doctrine system is obsolate in the current era.

well weapon and tank names are not something i use alot of time on so i give it a catchy name and leave it xD

And the Priest in your codex is actually more expensive, because the current Priest has a Rosarius as a basic wargear. Just sayin'

really? i didn't notice that... i was wondering hard about this xD

Dark wolf44 wrote:

A T3 4+ save model is not worth 20 points, even if it's BS5 and has a Str5 Ap3 gun.

I do disagree, in the current codex the storm trooper are at 16 points and s*** balls (as the veterans bypass them by far). In the current codex the storm trooper is just used as "suicide" unit who deepstrike behind tank or fortification to destroy the enemy. but they only have 1 chance (and with their BS 4 18" hot-shot lasgun they are lucky if they survive to your next round).
I would happelly pay 20 points pr for a BS 5 T3 model (as almost all models in the IG are T3) who can survive longer after they have deep striked. This may be only me but still. Also as the storm trooper have "operations" special rule they can choose to re-roll the scatter dice or have move through cover + scout or have pinning when they fire for the first time. at 20 points this would be cheap in my eyes

Why would you compare the stormtroopers to the veterans? They've got quite different functions.
Lets say there is a stormtrooper squad with 2 melta's and a veteran squad with melta's in a Chimera. One costs 105 points, the other 155 points.
Sure there is a 50 points difference, but lets look at their functions.
The Chimera has to drive forward and then up close the meltagun can finally be used.
The Stormtroopers can deepstrike next to their objective. While your opponent may know how to counter a veteran squad, basically by just blowing up their transport, which isn't that had.
However, stopping deepstrikers is difficult.

Your veterans are troops, thus you want them to hang around to stay on an objective towards the end of the game.
Stormtroopers are elite and it makes no difference if they stay or not, they are not going to score an objective for you.
The veterans are designed to be versitle and usefull all around, while the stormtroopers should be limited in their focus.

Overall, my impressions of this codex is that you didn't really improve a lot of the units that suck hard like Ogryns and Stormtroopers in the current guard codex and instead focused on cutting costs for already popular units. That's just me though.

i must admit that im not like other IG players who spams tanks like hell (5th edition in a nut-shell) i like using infantry like guardsman, veterans, ogryns and my favorit storm troopers so i do not see things that you may see in this codex

Still appreciate your comments

If I may ask, how can you like stormtroopers if you don't know how to make use of them?
There are quite a score of roles for Stormtroopers, but not all are: Deploy and reap the rewards. If you do want to make a proper use of them, try to deepstrike them behind enemy lines. Say there is an annoying Tau hammerhead on the opposite of the field. As an infantry player you can either run to the other side and then melta it to death or you could throw the stormtroopers against it.
While you may or may not think that is useful is entirely up to you.

On the other hand: Something doesn't have to make its points back in order to be effective.
Because your opponent knows that a pair of melta could deepstrike from any given place, he has to adept his tactics or face them.
If he changes his plans, then you already have an advantage over him as he has to react to your models.

On topic, I've looked over some of your parts of the codex and well some things are quite cheap. Perhaps try using the x 1,5 rule.
If you make or create a new upgrade, think of a certain value and then add half of that value to it. It's better to have an overcosted unit that needs to be made cheaper, rather than an unit that is too cheap.
Also, try playing friendly games with it a couple of times and warn your opponent before hand that you are using a fancodex.
From there you can try and see what you can do.

Perhaps that unit was indeed a bit too expensive or this unit was too cheap and the last unit's rules were broken.

You also made up some units, such as one of the dedicated transports, it could be nice if you added some image of them or give a detailed description. Then again, it's no requirment.

Good luck with it and if you want, I could give some more pointers.

Dark wolf44 wrote:
i do ask why should then not be allowed to take a heavy weapon team? and yeah the (4) is if the army chooses infantry specialisation (which gives 2 additional special weapon to an infantry squad) and the fact that the new army book writers in GW are high on their expencive finecast when they writes codexes are not my fault. i do say that sternguard should be BS5 WS5 and other stuff but don't drag dem in to this because a storm trooper is still easy killed as they only have a 4+ save with 1W at 20 points each, storm trooper does no have "you shall know no fear" they do not have combi weapons and they can't split up they do not have 3+ save and 1A base (where stern got 2) and storm trooper does not have special ammunitions. Sternguard also get special weapons & heavy weapons to sickly redused prices (5 points for multi melta) where my storm trooper still pays full price. storm trooper are supposed to be the best unit IG have to offer and some are even a part of the inquisition. all other race can have a buffed up HQ choice (space wolves wolf lord example) so the fact that IG have 1 unit that bypass space marines should be allowed.

PS: its S5 AP3 not S6 AP3

Just some points in no order
1. It is S6 AP 3 if they take the hot-shot hellgun and the upgraded power packs, assuming that hellguns are a type of las weapon. Even then, S5 AP3 is better than any ammunition Sternguard has as far as I am aware, and Sternguard and other Marine elites are on a whole different level than storm troopers.

2. STs shouldn't get heavy weapons because they are supposed to be like special forces. Their job is to run into an area, smash the target, and leave, a heavy weapon would impede that goal by slowing them down. On the tabletop it makes it appear like you are blatantly trying to supersede veterans by giving STs access to equipment the line infantry normally gets. Also, they shouldn't have 4 SWs, if you bring up the "baw veterans get 3 SWs and aren't even as elite" it is because they are veterans, odds are they weren't issued that many SWs per squad, they probably looted some of the weapons from the dead or stole them from the armoury.

3. Sternguard get special/heavy weapons at a reduced price because no one takes them anyway since it takes away access to the special ammunition which is the whole reason behind them.

4. Bypassing SM armour is one thing, having a squad that can be used as a troop choice depending on doctrines that completely surpasses other armies' troops in ranged combat is something completely different. This is the general competency of Imperial forces Grey Knight>Space Marine>Storm Troopers>Veterans>Regular Guardsmen>Conscripts>PDF Storm Troopers may be elite, but they are still part of the Imperial Guard, and as a result are expendable. If you really want to boost them do it in a less noticeable way, maybe give them a special character that provides boosts, maybe give them more options to make them more specialist (perhaps Hellguns using 4th ed. stats with HSLG using 5th ed. stats as an upgrade (lower the base cost if you do that)), maybe give them a special rule that gives them some bonus when attacking.

5. (mostly a note) In other armies the elites are like troops only better, they can still serve alongside troops, with the IG elites are specialists, whether it be specialist snipers, close combat specialists (hint, maybe work on Ogryn, they truly suck, mostly because they cost as much as terminators), special forces, or psykers.

It may be that i have misunderstood the IG fluff but if i remeber correctly they are supposed to have a large range of weapons and vehicles.

IG fluff is all about diversity, some regiments rely on numbers, some rely on stealth, some rely on close combat, some rely on superior equipment, etc. I really do like the doctrine system, it has always given a good feel for the diversity of the guard. An idea I tossed around is adding more 5th ed. veteran doctrines to symbolize specialist regiments, perhaps you would like to use it. For example you cab have main doctrines, and sub-doctrines to give the feel of a truly unique guard army.

eg.

Infantry Regiment (Main Doctrine): A regiment composed almost entirely of infantry. This regiment may not take any dedicated transports for troop choices. The regiment may pick up to two sub-doctrines.

Light Infantry Regiment (sub-doctrine): The regiment relies heavily on stealth and marksmanship to carry the day. Any infantry squad, veteran squad, PCS, HWS, or SWS may take camo cloaks for +3 points per model. Any model carrying a lasgun can switch it for a sniper rifle for 5 points per model. Regiment may not take Leman Russ tanks as heavy support choices, nor may it take the Heavy Infantry Regiment doctrine.

Heavy Infantry Regiment (sub-doctrine): The regiment is well armoured and well equipped, with many guardsmen and guardswomen wearing superior carapace armour. Any infantry squad, veteran squad, PCS, HWS, or SWS may take carapace armour for +3 points per model. Any model carrying a lasgun can switch it for a hellgun (4th ed. stats) for 5 points per model. Regiment may not take the Light Infantry Regiment or Feral Worlders doctrines.

Massed Infantry Regiment (sub-doctrine): The regiment relies on overwhelming numbers to defeat the enemy, sending in more soldiers until the enemy is overwhelmed. Any infantry squad, veteran squad, PCS, HWS, SWS, or CCS may take a commissar for 35 points. Any infantry or veteran squad not taking a heavy weapon team may add up to 5 more models in its squad for 5 or 7 points per model respectively. Regiment may not take the Veteran Infantry Regiment doctrine.

Veteran Infantry Regiment (sub-doctrine): The regiment has fought hundreds of battles on dozens of worlds, and its soldiers are battle hardened and ruthless. Any infantry squad, PCS, SWS, or HWS may have every model in its squad boosted to BS 4 for 2 points per model. Regiment may not take the Massed Infantry Regiment doctrine.

Feral Worlders (sub-doctrine): The regiment comes from a feral world, where the warriors are hardened from years of internal warfare, with every soldier knowing how to use a blade.Any infantry squad, veteran squad, PCS, SWS, HWS, or CCS may have every model in its squad boosted to WS 4 for 1 point per model. Any squad may also take an upgrading giving them the furious charge USR for 20 points per squad. Regiment may not take the Heavy Infantry Regiment doctrine.

This is just one, possibly not complete main doctrine, but you can see the versatility it offers. You can field a regiment using hordes of snipers in camo cloaks, you can field a regiment where every basic infantryman has BS 4 and WS 4, you can take a small regiment of snipers with camo cloaks and BS 4 or a regiment with BS 4, hellguns, and carapace armour. A major point is however, that the doctrines are free, but in order to get any of the upgrades you need to pay.

Just some points in no order
1. It is S6 AP 3 if they take the hot-shot hellgun and the upgraded power packs, assuming that hellguns are a type of las weapon. Even then, S5 AP3 is better than any ammunition Sternguard has as far as I am aware, and Sternguard and other Marine elites are on a whole different level than storm troopers.

Where do you find power packs? and of course the hot-shot hellgun is a lasgun for the matter of power packs but the power packs are not existing in patch1.2

2. STs shouldn't get heavy weapons because they are supposed to be like special forces. Their job is to run into an area, smash the target, and leave, a heavy weapon would impede that goal by slowing them down. On the tabletop it makes it appear like you are blatantly trying to supersede veterans by giving STs access to equipment the line infantry normally gets. Also, they shouldn't have 4 SWs, if you bring up the "baw veterans get 3 SWs and aren't even as elite" it is because they are veterans, odds are they weren't issued that many SWs per squad, they probably looted some of the weapons from the dead or stole them from the armoury.

Special forces that isn't allowed to be to special, i see....
I though of giving them relentless USR but then some 600 space marines and some space wolves would kick my ass at another forum. Space marines these days....

3. Sternguard get special/heavy weapons at a reduced price because no one takes them anyway since it takes away access to the special ammunition which is the whole reason behind them.

So because no one takes them shall they receive special weapons at redused prices? makes sense no?

4. Bypassing SM armour is one thing, having a squad that can be used as a troop choice depending on doctrines that completely surpasses other armies' troops in ranged combat is something completely different. This is the general competency of Imperial forces Grey Knight>Space Marine>Storm Troopers>Veterans>Regular Guardsmen>Conscripts>PDF Storm Troopers may be elite, but they are still part of the Imperial Guard, and as a result are expendable. If you really want to boost them do it in a less noticeable way, maybe give them a special character that provides boosts, maybe give them more options to make them more specialist (perhaps Hellguns using 4th ed. stats with HSLG using 5th ed. stats as an upgrade (lower the base cost if you do that)), maybe give them a special rule that gives them some bonus when attacking.

U make Imperial Guards sound as a weakling & losers club.....

5. (mostly a note) In other armies the elites are like troops only better, they can still serve alongside troops, with the IG elites are specialists, whether it be specialist snipers, close combat specialists (hint, maybe work on Ogryn, they truly suck, mostly because they cost as much as terminators), special forces, or psykers.

Hmm... i didn't think of it that way hmm....

IG fluff is all about diversity, some regiments rely on numbers, some rely on stealth, some rely on close combat, some rely on superior equipment, etc. I really do like the doctrine system, it has always given a good feel for the diversity of the guard. An idea I tossed around is adding more 5th ed. veteran doctrines to symbolize specialist regiments, perhaps you would like to use it. For example you cab have main doctrines, and sub-doctrines to give the feel of a truly unique guard army.

eg.

Infantry Regiment (Main Doctrine): A regiment composed almost entirely of infantry. This regiment may not take any dedicated transports for troop choices. The regiment may pick up to two sub-doctrines.

Light Infantry Regiment (sub-doctrine): The regiment relies heavily on stealth and marksmanship to carry the day. Any infantry squad, veteran squad, PCS, HWS, or SWS may take camo cloaks for +3 points per model. Any model carrying a lasgun can switch it for a sniper rifle for 5 points per model. Regiment may not take Leman Russ tanks as heavy support choices, nor may it take the Heavy Infantry Regiment doctrine.

Heavy Infantry Regiment (sub-doctrine): The regiment is well armoured and well equipped, with many guardsmen and guardswomen wearing superior carapace armour. Any infantry squad, veteran squad, PCS, HWS, or SWS may take carapace armour for +3 points per model. Any model carrying a lasgun can switch it for a hellgun (4th ed. stats) for 5 points per model. Regiment may not take the Light Infantry Regiment or Feral Worlders doctrines.

Massed Infantry Regiment (sub-doctrine): The regiment relies on overwhelming numbers to defeat the enemy, sending in more soldiers until the enemy is overwhelmed. Any infantry squad, veteran squad, PCS, HWS, SWS, or CCS may take a commissar for 35 points. Any infantry or veteran squad not taking a heavy weapon team may add up to 5 more models in its squad for 5 or 7 points per model respectively. Regiment may not take the Veteran Infantry Regiment doctrine.

Veteran Infantry Regiment (sub-doctrine): The regiment has fought hundreds of battles on dozens of worlds, and its soldiers are battle hardened and ruthless. Any infantry squad, PCS, SWS, or HWS may have every model in its squad boosted to BS 4 for 2 points per model. Regiment may not take the Massed Infantry Regiment doctrine.

Feral Worlders (sub-doctrine): The regiment comes from a feral world, where the warriors are hardened from years of internal warfare, with every soldier knowing how to use a blade.Any infantry squad, veteran squad, PCS, SWS, HWS, or CCS may have every model in its squad boosted to WS 4 for 1 point per model. Any squad may also take an upgrading giving them the furious charge USR for 20 points per squad. Regiment may not take the Heavy Infantry Regiment doctrine.

This is just one, possibly not complete main doctrine, but you can see the versatility it offers. You can field a regiment using hordes of snipers in camo cloaks, you can field a regiment where every basic infantryman has BS 4 and WS 4, you can take a small regiment of snipers with camo cloaks and BS 4 or a regiment with BS 4, hellguns, and carapace armour. A major point is however, that the doctrines are free, but in order to get any of the upgrades you need to pay.

Very interrestning indeed

Dark wolf44 wrote:
So because no one takes them shall they receive special weapons at redused prices? makes sense no?

It is still a different conundrum. If no one is taking a specific weapon either it is terrible, it is a downgrade, or it is overcosted. Storm troopers have no problems with their equipment, the problem is with the storm troopers themselves. Now, how one might address this is touchy. I think you should improve the options they have, but set it up in such a way that you are better off going specialized, so for example the basic equipment could be this.
HSLG
Carapace Armour
Frag/Krak grenades
Hotshot pistol

For every 5 storm troopers you can take 2 special weapons, meaning a maximum of 4 SWs.

Every storm trooper can take the following upgrades
Melta bombs: 5 ppm
Camo Cloak: 3 ppm

This gives one versatility while forcing one to not waste them. If you wanted you could take a squad with 4 meltaguns, you would turn any tank to slag in one turn of shooting. You could take 4 plasma guns and use them to kill a specific target, you could take 5 with meltabombs and assault a tank in a suicide charge, you could deepstrike 5 STs with camo cloaks having them go to ground late in the game to contest an objective.

Something else I considered is giving every special operation an entry bonus like Behind Enemy Lines and pinning the first time they shoot. Perhaps let the Recon ignore cover the first time they shoot, and let airborne assault move after deepstriking and before shooting first turn they enter. It would make them more threatening since BEL can pin the enemy, Recon can ignore the cover, and AA can deepstrike, flee into cover, and shoot

U make Imperial Guards sound as a weakling & losers club.....

Man for man they are compared to the space marines. Think of it this way, the weakest Storm Trooper is superior to the greatest special forces soldier in the modern world, but the worst space marine is better than 5 of the best storm troopers. Storm troopers are good, but they are still human.